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Re: [pfaf] Wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs

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  • David Foale
    ... years are just deluding themselves! I m starting to think scientists even misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system... David x ...
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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      :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for thousands of
      years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists even
      misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...


      David
      x
      On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
      >
      > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
      > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
      > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
      >
      > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
      > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
      > references could be really helpful.
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

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      skype: daresbalat
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    • Griselda Mussett
      I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective customers look it
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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        I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition
        supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective
        customers look it up on google or Wikipedia and find there several
        articles and pages knocking the product - particularly one called
        Quackbuster which has over 70 websites knocking natural and traditional
        cures. Not surprisingly, they are dissuaded from trying our
        supplement, which is a shame not only for my business but also for
        their health, as it is such a good, simple, and efficacious product.

        I am delighted to tell you that the doctor who helps run these
        'knocking' pages (Stephen Barrett MD) has just lost a colossal court
        case in the States, after he sued another doctor (Tedd Koren) for
        defamation. He is leaving his home town and operating base in
        Allentown, Pennsylvania.

        I have here a longish account detailing exactly what has been announced
        today which I am happy to send to anyone who is interested, or I can
        post it here for you all if you want.

        In summary "......Steven Barrett is an unlicensed Pennsylvania
        psychiatrist, who, though he failed his psychiatric boards and has been
        criticized for his lack of expertise by several courts, still claims to
        often advise the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Food and Drug
        Administration (FDA), the FBI, State Attorneys General, HMOs, Consumer
        Reports, medical journals and state medical, chiropractic  and dental
        boards.  The insurance industry cites Barrett's highly opinionated
        Quackbuster attacks to deny paying claims for chiropractic and other
        natural healthcare....

        Barrett and the Quackbusters, a vigilante group of self proclaimed
        sceptics of any medical or health modality that avoids drugs, surgery
        or radiation, attack almost all non-conventional healthcare practices
        as quackery.  Ignoring all scientific research to the contrary, they
        dismiss Gulf War Syndrome, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Chemical
        Sensitivity, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and dietary supplements as
        rubbish. Double Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is on their quack
        hit list along with many well known and respected doctors and
        scientists, including Deepak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and dozens of
        others........

        The Quackbusters run over 70 websites.  Millions of people go to them
        every year. Look up chiropractic, acupuncture, homeopathy or even
        vitamin C, as well as almost every other natural health topic, on the
        Internet and you (and the public) will be led to Quackbuster sites
        advising you of natural health dangers.  In all these forums Barrett
        and the Quackbusters relentlessly attack the consumer right to informed
        choice.  These activities continue the AMA's anti-quackery committee's
        activities that were struck down by federal courts as an illegal
        restraint of trade in a landmark lawsuit brought by Illinois
        chiropractor Chester Wilk.  They also help insurance companies deny
        consumer reimbursement claims....."

        The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it. I am so
        pleased to report this to you. We are prevented in Europe from
        describing food as medicine, as the (p)harmaceutical lobby is so
        powerful, and yet so many plants are what we need for health and
        wellbeing, and so much knowledge will be lost unless we are free to
        share it.

        yours

        Griselda Mussett















        On 16 Jul 2007, at 12:04, David Foale wrote:

        > :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for
        > thousands of
        > years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists
        > even
        > misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...
        >
        > David
        > x
        > On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal
        > herbs,
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
        > > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
        > > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
        > >
        > > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good
        > references
        > > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
        > > references could be really helpful.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
        >
        > phone: 0774 3917404
        > skype: daresbalat
        > msn: bobulatorm@...
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Donald Sunday
        thanks for the information!It s really helpfull. Richard Morris wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia s list of
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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          thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

          Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
          A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
          the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

          Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
          for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
          references could be really helpful.






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        • Infowolf1@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, griselda1@btopenworld.com writes: The article I have here has lots more detail if you want
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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            In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            griselda1@... writes:

            The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it.


            Please post a copy here, and send me a copy
            Infowolf1 AT aol.com







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          • Martin Naylor
            It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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              It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant sources
              A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any investigations done
              also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds rights
              Martin


              "Business men drink my wine Proud men dig my earth"

              "They say that patriotism is the last refuge
              To which a scoundrel clings.
              Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
              Steal a lot and they make you king.
              There's only one step down from here, baby,
              It's called the land of permanent bliss.
              What's a sweetheart like you doin' in a dump like this?"
              Bob Dylan






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            • Infowolf1@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au writes: It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                martinwnaylor@... writes:

                It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
                2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
                % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
                sources
                A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
                investigations done
                also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
                rights
                Martin




                which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
                but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
                stores
                any more anyway.

                i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
                them with
                things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
                pharmacist is not told
                about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
                harmless, and use it
                with prescription meds.

                Or with some herbs.

                Infowolf1



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              • icculus2000@yahoo.com
                Hello everyone, This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices. Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                  Hello everyone,

                  This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                  Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It has many components.

                  This is where we come into the isolation of single constituents - which can be patented, due largely to Henry Kissinger, I believe, and the commodities market schemers.
                  The drug company will not make as much money if it uses the WHOLE herb (or root, leaf, stem, mushroom, etc) because they do not OWN it. However, there is ample evidence pointing to the benefits of using the whole herb versus isolated constituents.

                  Now companies can isolate constituents or compounds and synthesize them, cutting the earth and the grower out of the loop (this is without even getting into genetically engineered products - they can patent those, too). Then they can sell them. As soon as food items and drugs became part of the buying and selling game, the whole hypocratic oath went out the window, really. Think about it.. The doctor could prescribe an herb or other natural remedy for your condition, but the drug company is going to pay him to prescribe "x" amount of Ritalin or Paxil by the end of the year; so that's what you're getting.

                  Oh, I know, there are a thousand stories about how little Jimmy was saved by the magical medicine, but look at who is doing the storytelling - at least in the mainstream.

                  This leads us neatly back to Rich's request (you thought I had lost the plot, didn't you Rich?) - we have returned like a cycle on the land to the dire need for actual references to cases in which medicinal herbs worked and were documented in some sort of record.

                  Please send anything you have in this theme to Rich at PFAF.
                  (it wouldn't hurt to carbon copy us by clicking "reply to group" so that other people can hear about it.)

                  I must bring up the fact that our present pharmacopia of drugs in the west comes predominantly from plants, many of them originating in the rainforest. But lets think of aspirin for a moment (that's paracetamol for you in the UK, I think). Doesn't Aspirin derive from the bark of willow roots? Surely there are numerous instances like this on record?
                  Let's find them.

                  I have to mention here that Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and Traditional Indian Medicine (Ayurveda) would also likely be prime sources. Thousands of years of practice has to reveal empirical evidence. Look at Tulsi, for instance.. Holy Basil (Ocimum sanctum) is one of the most prescribed whole-plant extracts in Ayurveda - Aswagandha (Withania somniferum) too. Both show evidence of being very safe stress relievers and adaptogenic herbs, among other uses.

                  The trouble with this whole debate is that the traditional western medical community doesn't recognise anyone's evidence except their own. How do you prove the infallibility of the pope to a buddhist? Or explain life after death to a nihilist?

                  Some of the writers in this thread suggest separating the listings of information in order to define the medical from the folkloric..
                  Well i say that would be playing right in to the hands of the western critics of plant medicine - they'll claim we have backed off from our stance that medicinal herbs are a viable alternative to "drugs."

                  I'll leave the thread there, because I need sleep.

                  Peace and love,

                  Steve


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                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icculus2000@yahoo.com writes: Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own them. They
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                    In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    icculus2000@... writes:

                    Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own
                    them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its
                    natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE
                    EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It
                    has many components.




                    Actually, they can if they discover it and some are trying.



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                  • Rick van Rein
                    Hi, ... But on THIS list...?!? -Rick
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                      Hi,

                      > This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                      But on THIS list...?!?

                      -Rick
                    • Martin Naylor
                      sorry mate but i am am stuck with a great person and quiting and again ProfesorRon Nielson The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ] The annual global market value
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                        sorry mate
                        but i am am stuck with a great person
                        and quiting and again

                        ProfesorRon Nielson

                        The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ]

                        The annual global market value of pharmaceutical products derived from the genetics's bank of of the earth's biodiversity has been $75 billion and $150 billion
                        the annual global market for herbal medicines is 38 billion dollars of the top 150 top prescription drugs in the U S A IN 1997 WERE FROM BIOLOGICAL SOURCES

                        So you are telling me
                        that science knows the solution and our lives are nothing but a tool for society
                        Your mate
                        from the land down under
                        Out of site out of mind
                        martin


                        Plant your plants and
                        Let them grow





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                      • Dee Harris
                        Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It s the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                          Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It's the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and practice goes into learning herbalism. I"ve spent years learning what I know about herbs and alot of the so called dangerous herbs I use quite often without any adverse affects. Learning and practice and more learning and practice is what is needed and study. Lots of study. Check everything out before using any herb. It's only common sense.
                          Wolf

                          Infowolf1@... wrote:

                          In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                          martinwnaylor@... writes:

                          It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
                          2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
                          % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
                          sources
                          A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
                          investigations done
                          also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
                          rights
                          Martin

                          which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
                          but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
                          stores
                          any more anyway.

                          i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
                          them with
                          things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
                          pharmacist is not told
                          about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
                          harmless, and use it
                          with prescription meds.

                          Or with some herbs.

                          Infowolf1

                          ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                          http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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                        • Dee Harris
                          Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don t have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                            Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don't have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on what's out there that is better than the patented medicines that the doctors are handing out like candy.
                            Wolf

                            Donald Sunday <donsonde20@...> wrote:
                            thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

                            Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                            A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                            the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

                            Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                            for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                            references could be really helpful.


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                          • Dee Harris
                            May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper s Herbal? LOL Wolf ... years are just deluding themselves! I m starting to think scientists even
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                              May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper's Herbal? LOL
                              Wolf

                              David Foale <anarchybob@...> wrote:
                              :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for thousands of
                              years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists even
                              misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...

                              David
                              x
                              On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                              > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                              > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
                              >
                              > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                              > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                              > references could be really helpful.
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

                              phone: 0774 3917404
                              skype: daresbalat
                              msn: bobulatorm@...

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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                            • Martin Naylor
                              No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don t cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist we are
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                                No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don't cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist
                                we are a carbon based molecular system anything that affects that system is a drug
                                Martin


                                Plant your plants and
                                Let them grow
                                i'm just a singer in a rock and roll band
                                scorching this earth






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