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Re: [pfaf] Wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs

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  • Rick van Rein
    Ah, ... Sounds like a page to be split -- one for scientifically proven medicine (I put quotes around scientific because the science is done from a strong
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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      Ah,

      > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
      > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
      > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

      Sounds like a page to be split -- one for "scientifically" proven medicine
      (I put quotes around scientific because the science is done from a strong
      commercial inclinination) and one for folk-based medicinal herbs.

      Both as a reader and author I would appreciate keeping the lists separate.

      -Rick
    • David Foale
      ... years are just deluding themselves! I m starting to think scientists even misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system... David x ...
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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        :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for thousands of
        years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists even
        misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...


        David
        x
        On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
        >
        > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
        > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
        > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
        >
        > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
        > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
        > references could be really helpful.
        >
        >
        >



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      • intjring
        ... I looked at the discussion. This person means well, even makes some good points, although not all of his/her statements are well researched. Click on
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Morris" <mailinglists@...> wrote:
          >
          > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
          > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
          > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

          I looked at the discussion. This person means well, even makes some
          good points, although not all of his/her statements are well
          researched. Click on "biology" in his statement where he/she claims it
          has been a discipline for 2K years, and it will take you to a Wikipedia
          page that says biology as a separate science emerged in the 19th
          century.

          In any case, IMO, this type of criticism can help improve the article.
          I agree that it is confusing to lump undocumented claims with proven
          ones. I find it confusing in PFAF. Why not present undocumented,
          anecdotal uses of herbs in a separate table? Certainly some of clinical
          medicine is anecdotal, especially with emerging diseases. Herbals have
          a good reason be undocumented - less funds for studies. Can you report
          undocumented uses separately? I don't know Wikipedia policies - does
          anyone?

          > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
          > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
          > references could be really helpful.

          A great place to start looking is the Entrez database:
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez The Pub Med section is where
          you search. Any studies accepted by the scientific community will have
          been published in a journal found in this database, so if they aren't
          documented in these articles, they're not documented.

          Cindy
        • Griselda Mussett
          I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective customers look it
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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            I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition
            supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective
            customers look it up on google or Wikipedia and find there several
            articles and pages knocking the product - particularly one called
            Quackbuster which has over 70 websites knocking natural and traditional
            cures. Not surprisingly, they are dissuaded from trying our
            supplement, which is a shame not only for my business but also for
            their health, as it is such a good, simple, and efficacious product.

            I am delighted to tell you that the doctor who helps run these
            'knocking' pages (Stephen Barrett MD) has just lost a colossal court
            case in the States, after he sued another doctor (Tedd Koren) for
            defamation. He is leaving his home town and operating base in
            Allentown, Pennsylvania.

            I have here a longish account detailing exactly what has been announced
            today which I am happy to send to anyone who is interested, or I can
            post it here for you all if you want.

            In summary "......Steven Barrett is an unlicensed Pennsylvania
            psychiatrist, who, though he failed his psychiatric boards and has been
            criticized for his lack of expertise by several courts, still claims to
            often advise the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Food and Drug
            Administration (FDA), the FBI, State Attorneys General, HMOs, Consumer
            Reports, medical journals and state medical, chiropractic  and dental
            boards.  The insurance industry cites Barrett's highly opinionated
            Quackbuster attacks to deny paying claims for chiropractic and other
            natural healthcare....

            Barrett and the Quackbusters, a vigilante group of self proclaimed
            sceptics of any medical or health modality that avoids drugs, surgery
            or radiation, attack almost all non-conventional healthcare practices
            as quackery.  Ignoring all scientific research to the contrary, they
            dismiss Gulf War Syndrome, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Chemical
            Sensitivity, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and dietary supplements as
            rubbish. Double Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is on their quack
            hit list along with many well known and respected doctors and
            scientists, including Deepak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and dozens of
            others........

            The Quackbusters run over 70 websites.  Millions of people go to them
            every year. Look up chiropractic, acupuncture, homeopathy or even
            vitamin C, as well as almost every other natural health topic, on the
            Internet and you (and the public) will be led to Quackbuster sites
            advising you of natural health dangers.  In all these forums Barrett
            and the Quackbusters relentlessly attack the consumer right to informed
            choice.  These activities continue the AMA's anti-quackery committee's
            activities that were struck down by federal courts as an illegal
            restraint of trade in a landmark lawsuit brought by Illinois
            chiropractor Chester Wilk.  They also help insurance companies deny
            consumer reimbursement claims....."

            The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it. I am so
            pleased to report this to you. We are prevented in Europe from
            describing food as medicine, as the (p)harmaceutical lobby is so
            powerful, and yet so many plants are what we need for health and
            wellbeing, and so much knowledge will be lost unless we are free to
            share it.

            yours

            Griselda Mussett















            On 16 Jul 2007, at 12:04, David Foale wrote:

            > :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for
            > thousands of
            > years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists
            > even
            > misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...
            >
            > David
            > x
            > On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal
            > herbs,
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
            > > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
            > > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
            > >
            > > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good
            > references
            > > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
            > > references could be really helpful.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
            >
            > phone: 0774 3917404
            > skype: daresbalat
            > msn: bobulatorm@...
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Donald Sunday
            thanks for the information!It s really helpfull. Richard Morris wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia s list of
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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              thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

              Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
              A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
              the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

              Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
              for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
              references could be really helpful.






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            • Infowolf1@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, griselda1@btopenworld.com writes: The article I have here has lots more detail if you want
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                griselda1@... writes:

                The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it.


                Please post a copy here, and send me a copy
                Infowolf1 AT aol.com







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              • Martin Naylor
                It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                  It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant sources
                  A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any investigations done
                  also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds rights
                  Martin


                  "Business men drink my wine Proud men dig my earth"

                  "They say that patriotism is the last refuge
                  To which a scoundrel clings.
                  Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
                  Steal a lot and they make you king.
                  There's only one step down from here, baby,
                  It's called the land of permanent bliss.
                  What's a sweetheart like you doin' in a dump like this?"
                  Bob Dylan






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                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au writes: It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                    In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    martinwnaylor@... writes:

                    It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
                    2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
                    % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
                    sources
                    A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
                    investigations done
                    also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
                    rights
                    Martin




                    which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
                    but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
                    stores
                    any more anyway.

                    i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
                    them with
                    things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
                    pharmacist is not told
                    about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
                    harmless, and use it
                    with prescription meds.

                    Or with some herbs.

                    Infowolf1



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                  • icculus2000@yahoo.com
                    Hello everyone, This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices. Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                      Hello everyone,

                      This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                      Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It has many components.

                      This is where we come into the isolation of single constituents - which can be patented, due largely to Henry Kissinger, I believe, and the commodities market schemers.
                      The drug company will not make as much money if it uses the WHOLE herb (or root, leaf, stem, mushroom, etc) because they do not OWN it. However, there is ample evidence pointing to the benefits of using the whole herb versus isolated constituents.

                      Now companies can isolate constituents or compounds and synthesize them, cutting the earth and the grower out of the loop (this is without even getting into genetically engineered products - they can patent those, too). Then they can sell them. As soon as food items and drugs became part of the buying and selling game, the whole hypocratic oath went out the window, really. Think about it.. The doctor could prescribe an herb or other natural remedy for your condition, but the drug company is going to pay him to prescribe "x" amount of Ritalin or Paxil by the end of the year; so that's what you're getting.

                      Oh, I know, there are a thousand stories about how little Jimmy was saved by the magical medicine, but look at who is doing the storytelling - at least in the mainstream.

                      This leads us neatly back to Rich's request (you thought I had lost the plot, didn't you Rich?) - we have returned like a cycle on the land to the dire need for actual references to cases in which medicinal herbs worked and were documented in some sort of record.

                      Please send anything you have in this theme to Rich at PFAF.
                      (it wouldn't hurt to carbon copy us by clicking "reply to group" so that other people can hear about it.)

                      I must bring up the fact that our present pharmacopia of drugs in the west comes predominantly from plants, many of them originating in the rainforest. But lets think of aspirin for a moment (that's paracetamol for you in the UK, I think). Doesn't Aspirin derive from the bark of willow roots? Surely there are numerous instances like this on record?
                      Let's find them.

                      I have to mention here that Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and Traditional Indian Medicine (Ayurveda) would also likely be prime sources. Thousands of years of practice has to reveal empirical evidence. Look at Tulsi, for instance.. Holy Basil (Ocimum sanctum) is one of the most prescribed whole-plant extracts in Ayurveda - Aswagandha (Withania somniferum) too. Both show evidence of being very safe stress relievers and adaptogenic herbs, among other uses.

                      The trouble with this whole debate is that the traditional western medical community doesn't recognise anyone's evidence except their own. How do you prove the infallibility of the pope to a buddhist? Or explain life after death to a nihilist?

                      Some of the writers in this thread suggest separating the listings of information in order to define the medical from the folkloric..
                      Well i say that would be playing right in to the hands of the western critics of plant medicine - they'll claim we have backed off from our stance that medicinal herbs are a viable alternative to "drugs."

                      I'll leave the thread there, because I need sleep.

                      Peace and love,

                      Steve


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                    • Infowolf1@aol.com
                      In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icculus2000@yahoo.com writes: Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own them. They
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                        In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        icculus2000@... writes:

                        Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own
                        them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its
                        natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE
                        EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It
                        has many components.




                        Actually, they can if they discover it and some are trying.



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                      • Rick van Rein
                        Hi, ... But on THIS list...?!? -Rick
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                          Hi,

                          > This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                          But on THIS list...?!?

                          -Rick
                        • Martin Naylor
                          sorry mate but i am am stuck with a great person and quiting and again ProfesorRon Nielson The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ] The annual global market value
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                            sorry mate
                            but i am am stuck with a great person
                            and quiting and again

                            ProfesorRon Nielson

                            The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ]

                            The annual global market value of pharmaceutical products derived from the genetics's bank of of the earth's biodiversity has been $75 billion and $150 billion
                            the annual global market for herbal medicines is 38 billion dollars of the top 150 top prescription drugs in the U S A IN 1997 WERE FROM BIOLOGICAL SOURCES

                            So you are telling me
                            that science knows the solution and our lives are nothing but a tool for society
                            Your mate
                            from the land down under
                            Out of site out of mind
                            martin


                            Plant your plants and
                            Let them grow





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                          • Dee Harris
                            Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It s the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                              Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It's the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and practice goes into learning herbalism. I"ve spent years learning what I know about herbs and alot of the so called dangerous herbs I use quite often without any adverse affects. Learning and practice and more learning and practice is what is needed and study. Lots of study. Check everything out before using any herb. It's only common sense.
                              Wolf

                              Infowolf1@... wrote:

                              In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                              martinwnaylor@... writes:

                              It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
                              2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
                              % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
                              sources
                              A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
                              investigations done
                              also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
                              rights
                              Martin

                              which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
                              but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
                              stores
                              any more anyway.

                              i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
                              them with
                              things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
                              pharmacist is not told
                              about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
                              harmless, and use it
                              with prescription meds.

                              Or with some herbs.

                              Infowolf1

                              ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                              http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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                            • Dee Harris
                              Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don t have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                                Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don't have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on what's out there that is better than the patented medicines that the doctors are handing out like candy.
                                Wolf

                                Donald Sunday <donsonde20@...> wrote:
                                thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

                                Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                                A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                                the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

                                Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                                for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                                references could be really helpful.


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                              • Dee Harris
                                May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper s Herbal? LOL Wolf ... years are just deluding themselves! I m starting to think scientists even
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                                  May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper's Herbal? LOL
                                  Wolf

                                  David Foale <anarchybob@...> wrote:
                                  :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for thousands of
                                  years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists even
                                  misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...

                                  David
                                  x
                                  On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                                  > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                                  > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
                                  >
                                  > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                                  > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                                  > references could be really helpful.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

                                  phone: 0774 3917404
                                  skype: daresbalat
                                  msn: bobulatorm@...

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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                                • Martin Naylor
                                  No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don t cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist we are
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                                    No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don't cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist
                                    we are a carbon based molecular system anything that affects that system is a drug
                                    Martin


                                    Plant your plants and
                                    Let them grow
                                    i'm just a singer in a rock and roll band
                                    scorching this earth






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