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Re: [pfaf] Re: Artemisia - plant to cure malaria

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  • Frank
    ... This information is wrong, IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!! There are no simple tests. Please be careful with using plants that you haven t identified or
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 4, 2007
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      --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

      > This is many months late but I felt that I should
      > answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs.
      > Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on
      > the skin of the inner elbow before using internally.
      > This is a safety tip that many do not know about. It
      > prevents accidental poisoning.

      This information is wrong,
      IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!!

      There are no simple tests. Please be careful with
      using plants that you haven't identified or are not
      familiar with.

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    • Dee Harris
      Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs at all? I ll have you know that I ve been using herbs most of my life and that s 51 years worth. I do think
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 4, 2007
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        Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm doing.
        Wolf

        Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
        --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

        > This is many months late but I felt that I should
        > answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs.
        > Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on
        > the skin of the inner elbow before using internally.
        > This is a safety tip that many do not know about. It
        > prevents accidental poisoning.

        This information is wrong,
        IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!!

        There are no simple tests. Please be careful with
        using plants that you haven't identified or are not
        familiar with.

        __________________________________________________
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      • icculus2000@yahoo.com
        Hi Marcia, As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago.. My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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          Hi Marcia,

          As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago..
          My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in genuine Absinthe are not high enough to be considered harmful (thujone is one of the alkaloids found in Artemisia absinthium, and is generally thought to be the source of any "secondary effects" such as those supposedly experienced by Lautrec and Van Gogh). You may also find that that this misunderstanding comes from misinformation distributed for political and economic competition in the industry.
          -As an aside, it must be noted that Absinthe (and its descendant, Pastis, or Anise) have the almost unique property of going cloudy when mixed with ice water. This, in addition to Absinthe's green colour, put it in an advantageous position in the market. Eau-de-vie and Marc manufacturers in the south of France almost certainly resented the presence of this flashy drink which was favoured by the trendy artist crowd (and let's not forget that even today the paysans in the south resent the city folk invading their lives).

          I must mention again that I'm not a doctor and I haven't tested A absinthium for thujone. However, there are numerous published findings from independent medical sources which bring into question the toxicity levels in commercially available absinthe (and unprocessed extract of Artemisia).

          As for your suggestion that Absinthe is addictive and hallucinogenic; perhaps you know of a study on the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe? I remain unaware of any evidence that distinguishes Absinthe from any other liquor - either for addictive or hallucinogenic properties. (Van Gogh chopping off his ear doesn't count - he did, after all admit himself to an asylum and was arguably insane before he began drinking absinthe)

          Despite being convinced that Absinthe is the victim of commercial propaganda, I am open to information to the contrary; so if you can enlighten me, I would be delighted.

          Peace and light,

          Steve




          "Every thought I have imprisoned in expression I must free by my deeds."
          ~ Kahlil Gibran



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        • RSJ
          Hi everyone ~ I m Stella, plant scientist, herbalist, flower therapist and garden designer residing in Victoria. For years I ve studied herbs and their actions
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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            Hi everyone ~
            I'm Stella, plant scientist, herbalist, flower therapist and garden
            designer residing in Victoria. For years I've studied herbs and their
            actions on the human body and mind. I make my own tinctures from fresh
            herbs to help my health. One herb I use on a daily basis is Artemisia
            vulgaris, Mugwort, diluted with other 'menopausal' herbs. It too has
            thujone, but in lower doses than those found in Artemisia absinthium.
            Periodically, I take a break from it, leaving it out for a week or two.
            I did research on Artemisia absinthium and yes, the properties of
            thujone can be detrimental to one's health, including that of toxicity,
            neurotoxicity, epileptigenic, and hallucinogenic. Following is the
            excerpt from my query on the properties of thujone, from Dr. Duke's
            Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Database. It's a most interesting site
            and my favourite resource for herbal chemical information. Check it out:

            http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chem-activities.pl

            *Dr. Duke's
            Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases*

            *Biological Activities of THUJONE*

            *Abortifacient*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Abortifacient>;

            *Anthelmintic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Anthelmintic>;

            *Antibacterial*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antibacterial>;

            *Antiseptic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antiseptic>;

            *Antispasmodic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antispasmodic>;
            ED50=0.127 mg/ml;

            *Cerebrodepressant*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Cerebrodepressant>;


            *Convulsant*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Convulsant>;
            40 mg/kg;

            *Counterirritant*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Counterirritant>;


            *Emmenagogue*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Emmenagogue>;

            *Epileptigenic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Epileptigenic>;

            *Hallucinogenic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Hallucinogenic>;

            *Herbicide*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Herbicide>;
            IC50=22 mM;

            *Neurotoxic*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Neurotoxic>;

            *Perfumery*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Perfumery>;

            *Pesticide*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Pesticide>;

            *Respirainhibitor*
            <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Respirainhibitor>;


            *Toxic* <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Toxic>;

            Fri Jan 5 18:53:12 EST 2007

            Please send questions and comments to:

            *James** **A. Duke*
            Green Farmacy Garden
            8210 Murphy Road
            Fulton, MD 20759


            or *Mary Jo Bogenschutz* (E-Mail: godwinm001@...
            <mailto:godwinm001@...>)

            Dr. Duke does not recommend self diagnosis or self medication. Please
            see the disclaimer <http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/warning.html> for more
            information.

            This information found at:

            http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chem-activities.pl

            Wishing you the best,

            Stella


            ~*~
            icculus2000@... wrote:
            > Hi Marcia,
            >
            > As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago..
            > My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in genuine Absinthe are not high enough to be considered harmful (thujone is one of the alkaloids found in Artemisia absinthium, and is generally thought to be the source of any "secondary effects" such as those supposedly experienced by Lautrec and Van Gogh). You may also find that that this misunderstanding comes from misinformation distributed for political and economic competition in the industry.
            > -As an aside, it must be noted that Absinthe (and its descendant, Pastis, or Anise) have the almost unique property of going cloudy when mixed with ice water. This, in addition to Absinthe's green colour, put it in an advantageous position in the market. Eau-de-vie and Marc manufacturers in the south of France almost certainly resented the presence of this flashy drink which was favoured by the trendy artist crowd (and let's not forget that even today the paysans in the south resent the city folk invading their lives).
            >
            > I must mention again that I'm not a doctor and I haven't tested A absinthium for thujone. However, there are numerous published findings from independent medical sources which bring into question the toxicity levels in commercially available absinthe (and unprocessed extract of Artemisia).
            >
            > As for your suggestion that Absinthe is addictive and hallucinogenic; perhaps you know of a study on the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe? I remain unaware of any evidence that distinguishes Absinthe from any other liquor - either for addictive or hallucinogenic properties. (Van Gogh chopping off his ear doesn't count - he did, after all admit himself to an asylum and was arguably insane before he began drinking absinthe)
            >
            > Despite being convinced that Absinthe is the victim of commercial propaganda, I am open to information to the contrary; so if you can enlighten me, I would be delighted.
            >
            > Peace and light,
            >
            > Steve
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Traveler in Thyme
            No, I can t quote any sources, I just had some old information, probably propaganda (LOL) but isn t Absinthe illegal in the U.S.? ... Traveler in Thyme
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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              No, I can't quote any sources, I just had some old information, probably propaganda (LOL) but isn't Absinthe illegal in the U.S.?


              ---Marcia Cash
              Traveler in Thyme
              http://www.travelerinthyme.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Frank
              ... You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.).
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                > Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs
                > at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using
                > herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I
                > do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm
                > doing.

                You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving
                a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are
                actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.). But
                there are enough plant poisons that don't give a
                reaction on the skin (for example saponins). Some
                poisons work slowly over a long period of time. As I
                said there are no simple test. I am very much for
                using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are very
                bad (= poisonous).

                But before starting using plants (especially for
                food or medicine) you have to be sure that
                you have identified it correctly (use several books or
                somebody that knows about plants). Also learn about
                the plant (books, the PFAF database, use google).
                Some medicinal plants are not suitable for self
                medication, some plants might interact with
                conventional medicines... Some plants are just
                wonderfully effective and totally safe...

                Plant toxicity is a difficult subject and
                there seems to be quit a bit of wrong information
                around. I wouldn't be surprised if the ethanol
                in Absinthe would be more poisonous than the
                thujone it contains.

                I don't want to scare anyone out of using plants,
                just to point out some wrong info. Especially people
                who are just starting to learn about plants. I
                remember
                when I first came to The Field I got a bit carried
                away with tasting all those nice plants and started
                eating stuff that is not meant to be eaten (Senecio
                jacobaea), it was a young one and I only took a little
                bit, *without any ill effects*. If I hadn't learned
                more about this plant and mixed in my daily salads, my
                liver - and I - would be gone.

                Frank.

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              • Dee Harris
                And you, Sir, have no idea of what you re talking about. I ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up with them in fact. Just because you prefer to use chemicals
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                  And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking about. I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up with them in fact. Just because you prefer to use chemicals to natural forms of healing doesn't give you the right to tell someone that they don't know what they're talking about.
                  As for identification of plants, again, I've been doing this for more than half a century. Maybe you think that your way is the only one, but it isn't.
                  Wolf the herbalist

                  Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                  --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                  > Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs
                  > at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using
                  > herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I
                  > do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm
                  > doing.

                  You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving
                  a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are
                  actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.). But
                  there are enough plant poisons that don't give a
                  reaction on the skin (for example saponins). Some
                  poisons work slowly over a long period of time. As I
                  said there are no simple test. I am very much for
                  using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are very
                  bad (= poisonous).

                  But before starting using plants (especially for
                  food or medicine) you have to be sure that
                  you have identified it correctly (use several books or
                  somebody that knows about plants). Also learn about
                  the plant (books, the PFAF database, use google).
                  Some medicinal plants are not suitable for self
                  medication, some plants might interact with
                  conventional medicines... Some plants are just
                  wonderfully effective and totally safe...

                  Plant toxicity is a difficult subject and
                  there seems to be quit a bit of wrong information
                  around. I wouldn't be surprised if the ethanol
                  in Absinthe would be more poisonous than the
                  thujone it contains.

                  I don't want to scare anyone out of using plants,
                  just to point out some wrong info. Especially people
                  who are just starting to learn about plants. I
                  remember
                  when I first came to The Field I got a bit carried
                  away with tasting all those nice plants and started
                  eating stuff that is not meant to be eaten (Senecio
                  jacobaea), it was a young one and I only took a little
                  bit, *without any ill effects*. If I hadn't learned
                  more about this plant and mixed in my daily salads, my
                  liver - and I - would be gone.

                  Frank.

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                • annahummingtree
                  We all know what we know (each of us have our own bits of the cosmic puzzle) and the brilliant thing about an email group such as this is that it allows us to
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                    We all know what we know (each of us have our own bits of the cosmic puzzle) and the brilliant thing about an email group such as this is that it allows us to exchange our knowledge and experiences and learn from each other.
                    Dear Wolf, as a trained medical herbalist (now retired) I think that Frank was wise to sound a serious note of caution. Most herbs are valuable healers, which can often be used even long-term with great benefits, but there are enough really powerful dangerous herbs to make it very important not just to know whether a herb is poisonous or not, but also the exact dosages for particular individuals, how often to take them, how long, in what combinations, and so on. Just testing herbs on the skin on the inner elbow is just not good enough.
                    Dear Frank, at the same time, it is heartening to come accross someone like Wolf, who has had a life-long relationship with herbs. Based on my own lifetime experience I believe that being friends with the plants enhances their potency, very much like any loving relationship enhances healing. It is not uncommon that the plants give us the knowledge how we can work with them for healing, but this is only possible if there is deep communication, familiarity and respect with our plant-relatives. What works for some people can never really be recommended as a general recipe for success.
                    In these days with so many really good books and also an absolute treasure of information and pictures available on the Internet, no one needs to resort to testing out themselves whether a herb is poisonous or not. Anyhow, even if you could establish this by yourself (almost impossible since many toxins take time to show their lethal effects), this tells you nothing about dosage (all important in poisonous plants, which are often great healers in specific minute dosages), how to use and prepare a particular herb, which can often be of vital relevance in treating serious conditions, etc.etc.
                    In survival conditions, when you have to use unknown plants as food, it is recommended practice to hold a small piece of plant material under the tongue, where substances are relatively easily transferred to the bloodstream. You then have to pay attention to what sensations this causes, locally and in the rest of your body. But how could we possibly recommend this practice in a situation where we have such an abundance of information all around us?
                    As someone, who has studied herbs and the culture of their use for many years, I can say with some confidence that our original knowledge of the herbs did not come from 'experimentation', as is commonly believed. All ancient cultures and remaining indigenous cultures (eg. in the Amazon) tell us that this knowledge was communicated to us by the plants themselves and after that of course the ever increasing empirical experience of working with the plants. The trouble is nowadays that people no longer have the sort of relationship with the natural world where this is any longer a possibility, in which case please take your guidance from established and proven traditions and research!.
                    What I would recommend is for anyone with a serious interest in plants (and the above subject) to read Stephen Harrod Buhner books: "The Secret Teachings of Plants: The Intelligence of the Heart in the Direct Perception of Nature" and "The Lost Language of Plants: The Ecological Importance of Plant Medicines for Life on Earth". Of course there are many knowledgeable good writers on the subject, but this guy is really outstanding. He knows his subject and a lot of other subjects besides. He is a rare combination of being thoroughly versed in traditional ways of relating to plants, as well as being up to date with cutting edge science. His research is immaculate. He's also an excellent writer (and poet). But most important of all (in my opinion) he will help to change people's relationships with plants (and with themselves).
                    Please Google him or look him for reviews. I believe his books are worth boxes full of others.
                    Green leaves and Love, AnnaHummingtree

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Frank
                    ... Can you be more specific in about the incorrect information in my reply, I like to learn. ... My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs, it is about
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                      --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:
                      > And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking
                      > about.

                      Can you be more specific in about the incorrect
                      information in my reply, I like to learn.

                      > I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up
                      > with them in fact.

                      My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs,
                      it is about your poisonous plants test.

                      > Just because you prefer to use
                      > chemicals to natural forms of healing

                      > > Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                      > > I am very much for
                      > > using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are
                      very
                      > > bad (= poisonous).

                      > doesn't give
                      > you the right to tell someone that they don't know
                      > what they're talking about.

                      Anybody is allowed to point out wrong information.

                      But what gives you the right to put words into my
                      mouth?

                      > As for identification of plants, again, I've been
                      > doing this for more than half a century.

                      You might familiar with plants and their uses, a lot
                      of people regrettably aren't. It does the advocacy
                      of using plants no good if somebody without affinity
                      for & knowledge of plants takes your test and gets
                      poisoned.

                      Frank


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                    • Frank
                      ... I believe this too. On the PFAF website a lot of good reasons are given for growing perennial plants. One thing I found that isn t mentioned is the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                        > Based on my own
                        > lifetime experience I believe that being friends
                        > with the plants enhances their potency, very much
                        > like any loving relationship enhances healing.

                        I believe this too. On the PFAF website a lot
                        of good reasons are given for growing perennial
                        plants. One thing I found that isn't
                        mentioned is the different relationship with
                        perennial plants. (I am not talking about medicinal
                        plants here but edible ones). When I pick a salad I
                        visit a lot of plants, whilst taking leaves I often
                        talk with them, now they are the best friends I
                        have at The Field and an important reason for me
                        to go back there regularly. It's definitely different
                        from growing lettuce.

                        > It is
                        > not uncommon that the plants give us the knowledge
                        > how we can work with them for healing, but this is
                        > only possible if there is deep communication,
                        > familiarity and respect with our plant-relatives.

                        My communication with plants hasn't regrettably
                        reached this level, but maybe I am just more
                        interested
                        if they are edible (and nice tasting) or not.
                        I seem to developing a sense of poisonous plants,
                        but I would not trust my self, and always check on
                        other peoples experiences.

                        > In survival conditions, when you have to use unknown
                        > plants as food, it is recommended practice to hold a
                        > small piece of plant material under the tongue,
                        > where substances are relatively easily transferred
                        > to the bloodstream. You then have to pay attention
                        > to what sensations this causes, locally and in the
                        > rest of your body.

                        Under survival conditions I would first
                        do a skin test (what Wolf described), then a your
                        test,
                        then to chew a bit without swallowing, then to eat
                        a little bit. Between each test there should be
                        enough time (a day), and as you say you have to pay
                        attention. Only test one plant at a time. Still some
                        poisonous plants might slip through, don't continue
                        eating the plant after survival without looking
                        up other peoples experiences.

                        I found the remaining bit of a your mail very
                        interesting. I will take a look at the books
                        Stephen Harrod Buhner books. As I'm very interested
                        in deepening my relation with plants. If anybody
                        on the list has experience or advice, I'd like to
                        hear!

                        Frank

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                      • Dee Harris
                        Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not include
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                          Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not include herbs such as monkshood or anything like that. When I spoke of testing on the inner part of the elbow, I was refering to the possibility of an allergic reaction to these same herbs such as rose hips, hibiscus and such.
                          However, you shot me down like I was a rank amateur and I am far from that. Not everyone can use sage tea for example, or rosemary tea and that's why I posted the warning.
                          Maybe next time before you open your mouth you will ask for clarification first.
                          Wolf

                          Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                          --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:
                          > And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking
                          > about.

                          Can you be more specific in about the incorrect
                          information in my reply, I like to learn.

                          > I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up
                          > with them in fact.

                          My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs,
                          it is about your poisonous plants test.

                          > Just because you prefer to use
                          > chemicals to natural forms of healing

                          > > Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                          > > I am very much for
                          > > using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are
                          very
                          > > bad (= poisonous).

                          > doesn't give
                          > you the right to tell someone that they don't know
                          > what they're talking about.

                          Anybody is allowed to point out wrong information.

                          But what gives you the right to put words into my
                          mouth?

                          > As for identification of plants, again, I've been
                          > doing this for more than half a century.

                          You might familiar with plants and their uses, a lot
                          of people regrettably aren't. It does the advocacy
                          of using plants no good if somebody without affinity
                          for & knowledge of plants takes your test and gets
                          poisoned.

                          Frank

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                        • Frank
                          ... This is quite different from what you wrote before, And it is indeed very sensible to test even plants that are considered save (also when trying food
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 11, 2007
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                            --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                            > Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are
                            > normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use
                            > is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not
                            > include herbs such as monkshood or anything like
                            > that. When I spoke of testing on the inner part of
                            > the elbow, I was refering to the possibility of an
                            > allergic reaction to these same herbs such as rose
                            > hips, hibiscus and such.

                            This is quite different from what you wrote before,
                            And it is indeed very sensible to test even plants
                            that are considered save (also when trying food
                            plants that you haven't eaten before).

                            > Maybe next time before you open your mouth you
                            > will ask for clarification first.

                            Because your post didn't have the above context,
                            I felt a obligation to warn people that this
                            test doen't prevent accidental poisoning with all
                            plants. Outside the above context your post was
                            dangerous. Your last post was clear and had good
                            advice. Thank you.

                            Frank

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