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Re: [pfaf] Artemisia - plant to cure malaria

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  • Kisan Mehta
    Dear Colleagues, Neem (Azadirichta indica) is well known for its effectiveness. Neem is not a pesticide as such but acts as a repellent between the female and
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 14 5:17 AM
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      Dear Colleagues,

      Neem (Azadirichta indica) is well known for its effectiveness.
      Neem is not a pesticide as such but acts as a repellent between
      the female and male and thus reduces or stops proliferation of mosquitoes.

      Not being a pesticide that kills, possibility of mutation in the
      pest is reduced. Experince shows that mosquitoes mutate so
      much so that new forms have become hazardous to life in
      addition to proliferation. New Malaria has turned out to be
      life threatening in last 6 0 years.

      Friends running a residential religious campus of 2000
      inmates invited us about 30 years to advise on effective
      measures to reduce mosquito menace. Inmates attending a
      mass at night to hear the head surmonising were pecennially
      under attack and could not concentrate. The campus was
      spread over 20 ha with ground floor structures for stay with
      lot of open space for vegaetation. The management had tried
      many pesticides hence the campus was stinking with foul.

      We explained that dependence on pesticides was not only bad
      but is harmful to all living beings inclcuding humans and
      recommended plantation of Neem saplings at max 5 m
      spacing both ways suggesting theimpact would be felt after
      about five years when saplings have grown to a size
      spreading over the low bult structures. This has worked.
      During two visits after a lapse of five and ten years we
      observed the campus practically free of meancing mosqitoes.
      Over 10000 neem trees in one location has as well reduced proliferation in
      areas around.

      This may work, Clare, on long term in Zqambia. Chemical
      pesticides increase incidence. We have not heard about the
      effectiveness of Artinsia hence wuld like to know about
      this variety as mosquto killer or reducer. Best wishes.
      Kisan Mehta Priya Salvi
      Prakruti
      620 Jame Jamshed Road, Dadar East,
      Mumbai 400014
      Tel: 00 91 22 2414 9688
      Kisan Mehta: 00 91 92234 48857
      Priya Salvi: 00 91 93240 27494

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "clareradiance" <clare@...>
      To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:42 AM
      Subject: [pfaf] Artemisia - plant to cure malaria


      > I am going to volunteer on a project in Zambia, where malaria is rife.
      > I have read that the artemisia plant is extremely successful at keeping
      > malaria at bay. I am therefore trying to locate seeds for Artemisia, so
      > that I can plant them in the permaculture project in Zambia, and help
      > reduce the incidents of this disease.
      > I look forward to hearing from anyone who can help.
      > With warm regards,
      > Clare
      >
    • Pat Meadows
      ... While not Clare, I think I can answer this. Artemisia annua does nothing to kill or reduce mosquitoes: it is taken internally by people as a malaria
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 14 12:05 PM
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        On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:47:17 +0530, you wrote:


        >
        >This may work, Clare, on long term in Zqambia. Chemical
        >pesticides increase incidence. We have not heard about the
        >effectiveness of Artinsia hence wuld like to know about
        >this variety as mosquto killer or reducer. Best wishes.

        While not Clare, I think I can answer this. Artemisia annua does nothing
        to kill or reduce mosquitoes: it is taken internally by people as a
        malaria preventive. It kills or reduces the malaria organisms in their
        bloodstream.

        I.e., if you take it, you don't get malaria *if* - and this is a big if -
        it works as it is supposed to.

        I don't know if it actually works.

        I have a condition (not related to malaria) called 'lupus' and an
        anti-malaria drug is often used to treat it. It is not known why an
        anti-malarial drug would work on this auto-immune disease, but it does work
        for many people, including me.

        I'll give Artemisia annua a try. If it works, perhaps I could use it
        rather than the prescription drug I now take. I'd far rather be using an
        herb than a prescription medication, if I get good results from the herb.

        Pat
        --
        In the Appalachian Mountains in northern Pennsylvania
        Blog (mainly gardening and cooking related):
        http://www.entire-of-itself.blogspot.com/
      • icculus2000@yahoo.com
        Hello, I am writing in collective response to the Artemisia/Neem/Malaria thread. It is my understanding (also) that ethanol (not wood, isopropyl or rubbing)
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 15 3:51 PM
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          Hello,

          I am writing in collective response to the Artemisia/Neem/Malaria thread.

          It is my understanding (also) that ethanol (not wood, isopropyl or rubbing) alcohol extract of dried leaves of Artemisia annua is taken internally to intervene when malaria has been contracted. It is also known to combat intestinal worms. (In response to the neem thread: planting this genus will likely produce little or no effect on mosquitoes, although it has been known to repel rodents.)

          Artemisia absinthium is the Wormwood of absinthe fame, but I believe all members of the genus contain large levels of Thujone (indeed A. annua is used preferentially because it has stronger concentrations), which is likely responsible for the vermifugal and anti microbial/malarial properties. Thujone ia a terpene and is related to menthol, known for its healing qualities.

          Care should be taken with ingestion of medicinally prepared Artemisia products, for while absinthe contains negligible amounts of the compound, Thujone in higher doses may bring about convulsions, paralysis, and even death. The median lethal dose (LD50) of Thujone in mice is around 45mg/kg. The LD50 for humans is not known.

          I understand that any applications to cure malaria will probably take place in a short enough time-frame that addiction or poisoning will not be concerns, but both are potential hazards with continuous use.

          I am not writing this to scare you, but look before you leap.

          Peace and love,

          Steve




          ---------------------------------
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        • Pat Meadows
          ... However, anti-malarial drugs are used on a long-term basis to treat lupus (system lupus erythematosus), an auto-immune disease. No one knows why they work
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 16 6:26 AM
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            On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:51:20 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

            >Hello,
            >
            > I am writing in collective response to the Artemisia/Neem/Malaria thread.
            >
            > It is my understanding (also) that ethanol (not wood, isopropyl or rubbing) alcohol extract of dried leaves of Artemisia annua is taken internally to intervene when malaria has been contracted. It is also known to combat intestinal worms. (In response to the neem thread: planting this genus will likely produce little or no effect on mosquitoes, although it has been known to repel rodents.)
            >
            > Artemisia absinthium is the Wormwood of absinthe fame, but I believe all members of the genus contain large levels of Thujone (indeed A. annua is used preferentially because it has stronger concentrations), which is likely responsible for the vermifugal and anti microbial/malarial properties. Thujone ia a terpene and is related to menthol, known for its healing qualities.
            >
            > Care should be taken with ingestion of medicinally prepared Artemisia products, for while absinthe contains negligible amounts of the compound, Thujone in higher doses may bring about convulsions, paralysis, and even death. The median lethal dose (LD50) of Thujone in mice is around 45mg/kg. The LD50 for humans is not known.
            >
            > I understand that any applications to cure malaria will probably take place in a short enough time-frame that addiction or poisoning will not be concerns, but both are potential hazards with continuous use.
            >
            However, anti-malarial drugs are used on a long-term basis to treat lupus
            (system lupus erythematosus), an auto-immune disease. No one knows why
            they work in this instance, but they do clearly work for at least some
            individuals with lupus.

            I have lupus and I take a prescription anti-malarial, hydroxychloroquine
            (brand name: Plaquenil). I'm considering trying to substitute _Artemisia
            annua_, so I'm very interested in any safety issues, as you can imagine.

            James Duke in his book 'The Green Pharmacy Herbal Handbook' describes this
            herb as used to treat both lupus and malaria. His 'Precautions' for it
            read that it might produce 'a rash, watery eyes, or another allergic
            reaction'. He gives it a safety rating of 2: in his scale, that means it's
            roughly as safe as drinking coffee.

            Duke's credentials are impressive; PhD in botany, long career dealing with
            medicinal plants, former head of the USDA's Medicinal Plant Laboratory
            (which unfortunately no longer exists). Of course, people with impressive
            credentials can be wrong and often have been.

            Do you have any further details on this? I'd sure appreciate them if so.
            Thanks!

            Pat
            --
            In the Appalachian Mountains in northern Pennsylvania
            Blog (mainly gardening and cooking related):
            http://www.entire-of-itself.blogspot.com/
          • Pat Meadows
            PS - Please see my prior post. I didn t mean to imply that I was asking you to research it for me: I will research it myself in any case. Just - if you have
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 16 6:36 AM
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              PS - Please see my prior post.

              I didn't mean to imply that I was asking you to research it for me: I will
              research it myself in any case. Just - if you have any further information
              *on hand*, please let me know. Thanks.

              Pat
              --
              In the Appalachian Mountains in northern Pennsylvania
              Blog (mainly gardening and cooking related):
              http://www.entire-of-itself.blogspot.com/
            • von-fi@elonmerkki.net
              Hello all friends, We had recently guests from West Papua and they said that tomatillo we ve been growing in greenhouse (Physalis ixocarpa) is being used there
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 16 4:19 PM
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                Hello all friends,

                We had recently guests from West Papua and they said that tomatillo we've
                been growing in greenhouse (Physalis ixocarpa) is being used there to prevent
                malaria. They said that the root and leaves are eaten, even though wikipedia
                says that other parts than fruit can contain toxins and should not therefore
                be eaten and so does pfaf database. Do you have more specific information on
                this?

                Orava

                > While not Clare, I think I can answer this. Artemisia annua does nothing
                > to kill or reduce mosquitoes: it is taken internally by people as a
                > malaria preventive. It kills or reduces the malaria organisms in their
                > bloodstream.
                >
                > I.e., if you take it, you don't get malaria *if* - and this is a big if -
                > it works as it is supposed to.
                >
                > I don't know if it actually works.
                >
                >
              • icculus2000@yahoo.com
                Hi Pat, Please don t worry about asking me for info.. As it happens, I am not a scientist, nor am I qualified to give medical advice, therefore you would be
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 17 9:39 AM
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                  Hi Pat,

                  Please don't worry about asking me for info..
                  As it happens, I am not a scientist, nor am I qualified to give medical advice, therefore you would be well advised to research or obtain outside research which you trust.

                  On the subject of thujone toxicity, it would appear that any report attached to absinthe (the popular green liquor of choice of Vincent van Gogh, among others) is suspect for political reasons - in essence, the government or other bodies exploited the reputation of absinthe in order to gain credibility. Any research should be directed to a more recent era in order to omit the influence of this partiality.
                  Artemisia spp. in and of itself is a valuable and essential genus, in my opinion, but any preparation which concentrates the levels of thujone should be closely monitored, and references should be made to credible scientific studies of its toxicity.

                  I believe that herbal and homeopathic remedies are vital components of community health care, and as such you should pursue your goal of using herbs (sustainably) as much as possible in place of synthetic compounds.

                  Peace,

                  Steve.


                  ---------------------------------
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                • Pat Meadows
                  ... Thanks, Steve. Being able to grow at least some of my own medicine is very appealing to me! So we ll see. But I ll be very careful about it. Pat -- In
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 17 9:55 AM
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                    On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:39:06 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:


                    > I believe that herbal and homeopathic remedies are vital components of community health care, and as such you should pursue your goal of using herbs (sustainably) as much as possible in place of synthetic compounds.
                    >

                    Thanks, Steve. Being able to grow at least some of my own medicine is very
                    appealing to me! So we'll see. But I'll be very careful about it.

                    Pat
                    --
                    In the Appalachian Mountains in northern Pennsylvania
                    Blog (mainly gardening and cooking related):
                    http://www.entire-of-itself.blogspot.com/
                  • Dee Harris
                    This is many months late but I felt that I should answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs. Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on the skin
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 2, 2007
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                      This is many months late but I felt that I should answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs.
                      Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on the skin of the inner elbow before using internally. This is a safety tip that many do not know about. It prevents accidental poisoning.
                      BB,
                      Wolf

                      icculus2000@... wrote:
                      Hi Pat,

                      Please don't worry about asking me for info..
                      As it happens, I am not a scientist, nor am I qualified to give medical advice, therefore you would be well advised to research or obtain outside research which you trust.

                      On the subject of thujone toxicity, it would appear that any report attached to absinthe (the popular green liquor of choice of Vincent van Gogh, among others) is suspect for political reasons - in essence, the government or other bodies exploited the reputation of absinthe in order to gain credibility. Any research should be directed to a more recent era in order to omit the influence of this partiality.
                      Artemisia spp. in and of itself is a valuable and essential genus, in my opinion, but any preparation which concentrates the levels of thujone should be closely monitored, and references should be made to credible scientific studies of its toxicity.

                      I believe that herbal and homeopathic remedies are vital components of community health care, and as such you should pursue your goal of using herbs (sustainably) as much as possible in place of synthetic compounds.

                      Peace,

                      Steve.


                      ---------------------------------
                      Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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                    • Mohammed Alal Khan
                      Hi Steve and Lina, Could you inform me about plants Veratrum album and Jaborandi ? Mohammed Alal Khan
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 2, 2007
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                        Hi Steve and Lina,
                        Could you inform me about plants Veratrum album and Jaborandi ?
                        Mohammed Alal Khan





                        At 01:55 PM 1/2/2007, you wrote:

                        >This is many months late but I felt that I should answer this as one
                        >who is very familiar with herbs.
                        >Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on the skin of the
                        >inner elbow before using internally. This is a safety tip that many
                        >do not know about. It prevents accidental poisoning.
                        >BB,
                        >Wolf
                        >
                        ><mailto:icculus2000%40yahoo.com>icculus2000@... wrote:
                        >Hi Pat,
                        >
                        >Please don't worry about asking me for info..
                        >As it happens, I am not a scientist, nor am I qualified to give
                        >medical advice, therefore you would be well advised to research or
                        >obtain outside research which you trust.
                        >
                        >On the subject of thujone toxicity, it would appear that any report
                        >attached to absinthe (the popular green liquor of choice of Vincent
                        >van Gogh, among others) is suspect for political reasons - in
                        >essence, the government or other bodies exploited the reputation of
                        >absinthe in order to gain credibility. Any research should be
                        >directed to a more recent era in order to omit the influence of this
                        >partiality.
                        >Artemisia spp. in and of itself is a valuable and essential genus,
                        >in my opinion, but any preparation which concentrates the levels of
                        >thujone should be closely monitored, and references should be made
                        >to credible scientific studies of its toxicity.
                        >
                        >I believe that herbal and homeopathic remedies are vital components
                        >of community health care, and as such you should pursue your goal of
                        >using herbs (sustainably) as much as possible in place of synthetic compounds.
                        >
                        >Peace,
                        >
                        >Steve.
                        >
                        >---------------------------------
                        >Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                        ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Traveler in Thyme
                        Perhaps the danger in using Artemisia is the same as the danger of drinking absinthe, the liqueur derived from the plant----- it s addictive and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 3, 2007
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                          Perhaps the danger in using Artemisia is the same as the danger of drinking absinthe, the liqueur derived from the plant----- it's addictive and hallucinogenic, ask Toulouse Lautrec and all those Impressionist painters, who were very fond of the drink!


                          ---Marcia Cash
                          Traveler in Thyme
                          http://www.travelerinthyme.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Frank
                          ... This information is wrong, IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!! There are no simple tests. Please be careful with using plants that you haven t identified or
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 4, 2007
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                            --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                            > This is many months late but I felt that I should
                            > answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs.
                            > Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on
                            > the skin of the inner elbow before using internally.
                            > This is a safety tip that many do not know about. It
                            > prevents accidental poisoning.

                            This information is wrong,
                            IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!!

                            There are no simple tests. Please be careful with
                            using plants that you haven't identified or are not
                            familiar with.

                            __________________________________________________
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                          • Dee Harris
                            Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs at all? I ll have you know that I ve been using herbs most of my life and that s 51 years worth. I do think
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 4, 2007
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                              Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm doing.
                              Wolf

                              Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                              --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                              > This is many months late but I felt that I should
                              > answer this as one who is very familiar with herbs.
                              > Point being, any herb shoudl first be tested on
                              > the skin of the inner elbow before using internally.
                              > This is a safety tip that many do not know about. It
                              > prevents accidental poisoning.

                              This information is wrong,
                              IT DOES NOT PREVENT POISONING!!

                              There are no simple tests. Please be careful with
                              using plants that you haven't identified or are not
                              familiar with.

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com







                              test'; ">
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                            • icculus2000@yahoo.com
                              Hi Marcia, As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago.. My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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                                Hi Marcia,

                                As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago..
                                My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in genuine Absinthe are not high enough to be considered harmful (thujone is one of the alkaloids found in Artemisia absinthium, and is generally thought to be the source of any "secondary effects" such as those supposedly experienced by Lautrec and Van Gogh). You may also find that that this misunderstanding comes from misinformation distributed for political and economic competition in the industry.
                                -As an aside, it must be noted that Absinthe (and its descendant, Pastis, or Anise) have the almost unique property of going cloudy when mixed with ice water. This, in addition to Absinthe's green colour, put it in an advantageous position in the market. Eau-de-vie and Marc manufacturers in the south of France almost certainly resented the presence of this flashy drink which was favoured by the trendy artist crowd (and let's not forget that even today the paysans in the south resent the city folk invading their lives).

                                I must mention again that I'm not a doctor and I haven't tested A absinthium for thujone. However, there are numerous published findings from independent medical sources which bring into question the toxicity levels in commercially available absinthe (and unprocessed extract of Artemisia).

                                As for your suggestion that Absinthe is addictive and hallucinogenic; perhaps you know of a study on the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe? I remain unaware of any evidence that distinguishes Absinthe from any other liquor - either for addictive or hallucinogenic properties. (Van Gogh chopping off his ear doesn't count - he did, after all admit himself to an asylum and was arguably insane before he began drinking absinthe)

                                Despite being convinced that Absinthe is the victim of commercial propaganda, I am open to information to the contrary; so if you can enlighten me, I would be delighted.

                                Peace and light,

                                Steve




                                "Every thought I have imprisoned in expression I must free by my deeds."
                                ~ Kahlil Gibran



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                              • RSJ
                                Hi everyone ~ I m Stella, plant scientist, herbalist, flower therapist and garden designer residing in Victoria. For years I ve studied herbs and their actions
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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                                  Hi everyone ~
                                  I'm Stella, plant scientist, herbalist, flower therapist and garden
                                  designer residing in Victoria. For years I've studied herbs and their
                                  actions on the human body and mind. I make my own tinctures from fresh
                                  herbs to help my health. One herb I use on a daily basis is Artemisia
                                  vulgaris, Mugwort, diluted with other 'menopausal' herbs. It too has
                                  thujone, but in lower doses than those found in Artemisia absinthium.
                                  Periodically, I take a break from it, leaving it out for a week or two.
                                  I did research on Artemisia absinthium and yes, the properties of
                                  thujone can be detrimental to one's health, including that of toxicity,
                                  neurotoxicity, epileptigenic, and hallucinogenic. Following is the
                                  excerpt from my query on the properties of thujone, from Dr. Duke's
                                  Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Database. It's a most interesting site
                                  and my favourite resource for herbal chemical information. Check it out:

                                  http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chem-activities.pl

                                  *Dr. Duke's
                                  Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases*

                                  *Biological Activities of THUJONE*

                                  *Abortifacient*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Abortifacient>;

                                  *Anthelmintic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Anthelmintic>;

                                  *Antibacterial*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antibacterial>;

                                  *Antiseptic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antiseptic>;

                                  *Antispasmodic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Antispasmodic>;
                                  ED50=0.127 mg/ml;

                                  *Cerebrodepressant*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Cerebrodepressant>;


                                  *Convulsant*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Convulsant>;
                                  40 mg/kg;

                                  *Counterirritant*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Counterirritant>;


                                  *Emmenagogue*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Emmenagogue>;

                                  *Epileptigenic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Epileptigenic>;

                                  *Hallucinogenic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Hallucinogenic>;

                                  *Herbicide*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Herbicide>;
                                  IC50=22 mM;

                                  *Neurotoxic*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Neurotoxic>;

                                  *Perfumery*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Perfumery>;

                                  *Pesticide*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Pesticide>;

                                  *Respirainhibitor*
                                  <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Respirainhibitor>;


                                  *Toxic* <http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chemical_activity.pl?Toxic>;

                                  Fri Jan 5 18:53:12 EST 2007

                                  Please send questions and comments to:

                                  *James** **A. Duke*
                                  Green Farmacy Garden
                                  8210 Murphy Road
                                  Fulton, MD 20759


                                  or *Mary Jo Bogenschutz* (E-Mail: godwinm001@...
                                  <mailto:godwinm001@...>)

                                  Dr. Duke does not recommend self diagnosis or self medication. Please
                                  see the disclaimer <http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/warning.html> for more
                                  information.

                                  This information found at:

                                  http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/chem-activities.pl

                                  Wishing you the best,

                                  Stella


                                  ~*~
                                  icculus2000@... wrote:
                                  > Hi Marcia,
                                  >
                                  > As it happens, this came up in our thread a few months ago..
                                  > My position at the time was that I think one may find the actual thujone levels in genuine Absinthe are not high enough to be considered harmful (thujone is one of the alkaloids found in Artemisia absinthium, and is generally thought to be the source of any "secondary effects" such as those supposedly experienced by Lautrec and Van Gogh). You may also find that that this misunderstanding comes from misinformation distributed for political and economic competition in the industry.
                                  > -As an aside, it must be noted that Absinthe (and its descendant, Pastis, or Anise) have the almost unique property of going cloudy when mixed with ice water. This, in addition to Absinthe's green colour, put it in an advantageous position in the market. Eau-de-vie and Marc manufacturers in the south of France almost certainly resented the presence of this flashy drink which was favoured by the trendy artist crowd (and let's not forget that even today the paysans in the south resent the city folk invading their lives).
                                  >
                                  > I must mention again that I'm not a doctor and I haven't tested A absinthium for thujone. However, there are numerous published findings from independent medical sources which bring into question the toxicity levels in commercially available absinthe (and unprocessed extract of Artemisia).
                                  >
                                  > As for your suggestion that Absinthe is addictive and hallucinogenic; perhaps you know of a study on the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe? I remain unaware of any evidence that distinguishes Absinthe from any other liquor - either for addictive or hallucinogenic properties. (Van Gogh chopping off his ear doesn't count - he did, after all admit himself to an asylum and was arguably insane before he began drinking absinthe)
                                  >
                                  > Despite being convinced that Absinthe is the victim of commercial propaganda, I am open to information to the contrary; so if you can enlighten me, I would be delighted.
                                  >
                                  > Peace and light,
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  --



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Traveler in Thyme
                                  No, I can t quote any sources, I just had some old information, probably propaganda (LOL) but isn t Absinthe illegal in the U.S.? ... Traveler in Thyme
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 5, 2007
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                                    No, I can't quote any sources, I just had some old information, probably propaganda (LOL) but isn't Absinthe illegal in the U.S.?


                                    ---Marcia Cash
                                    Traveler in Thyme
                                    http://www.travelerinthyme.com


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Frank
                                    ... You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.).
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                                      --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                                      > Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs
                                      > at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using
                                      > herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I
                                      > do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm
                                      > doing.

                                      You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving
                                      a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are
                                      actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.). But
                                      there are enough plant poisons that don't give a
                                      reaction on the skin (for example saponins). Some
                                      poisons work slowly over a long period of time. As I
                                      said there are no simple test. I am very much for
                                      using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are very
                                      bad (= poisonous).

                                      But before starting using plants (especially for
                                      food or medicine) you have to be sure that
                                      you have identified it correctly (use several books or
                                      somebody that knows about plants). Also learn about
                                      the plant (books, the PFAF database, use google).
                                      Some medicinal plants are not suitable for self
                                      medication, some plants might interact with
                                      conventional medicines... Some plants are just
                                      wonderfully effective and totally safe...

                                      Plant toxicity is a difficult subject and
                                      there seems to be quit a bit of wrong information
                                      around. I wouldn't be surprised if the ethanol
                                      in Absinthe would be more poisonous than the
                                      thujone it contains.

                                      I don't want to scare anyone out of using plants,
                                      just to point out some wrong info. Especially people
                                      who are just starting to learn about plants. I
                                      remember
                                      when I first came to The Field I got a bit carried
                                      away with tasting all those nice plants and started
                                      eating stuff that is not meant to be eaten (Senecio
                                      jacobaea), it was a young one and I only took a little
                                      bit, *without any ill effects*. If I hadn't learned
                                      more about this plant and mixed in my daily salads, my
                                      liver - and I - would be gone.

                                      Frank.

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                                    • Dee Harris
                                      And you, Sir, have no idea of what you re talking about. I ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up with them in fact. Just because you prefer to use chemicals
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                                        And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking about. I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up with them in fact. Just because you prefer to use chemicals to natural forms of healing doesn't give you the right to tell someone that they don't know what they're talking about.
                                        As for identification of plants, again, I've been doing this for more than half a century. Maybe you think that your way is the only one, but it isn't.
                                        Wolf the herbalist

                                        Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                                        --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                                        > Then what would you suggest, Frank? Not using herbs
                                        > at all? I'll have you know that I"ve been using
                                        > herbs most of my life and that's 51 years worth. I
                                        > do think that I have some knowledge of what I'm
                                        > doing.

                                        You have been lucky for 51 years then. A plant giving
                                        a reaction on the skin certainly is suspect, some are
                                        actually very nice to eat (like Urtica spp.). But
                                        there are enough plant poisons that don't give a
                                        reaction on the skin (for example saponins). Some
                                        poisons work slowly over a long period of time. As I
                                        said there are no simple test. I am very much for
                                        using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are very
                                        bad (= poisonous).

                                        But before starting using plants (especially for
                                        food or medicine) you have to be sure that
                                        you have identified it correctly (use several books or
                                        somebody that knows about plants). Also learn about
                                        the plant (books, the PFAF database, use google).
                                        Some medicinal plants are not suitable for self
                                        medication, some plants might interact with
                                        conventional medicines... Some plants are just
                                        wonderfully effective and totally safe...

                                        Plant toxicity is a difficult subject and
                                        there seems to be quit a bit of wrong information
                                        around. I wouldn't be surprised if the ethanol
                                        in Absinthe would be more poisonous than the
                                        thujone it contains.

                                        I don't want to scare anyone out of using plants,
                                        just to point out some wrong info. Especially people
                                        who are just starting to learn about plants. I
                                        remember
                                        when I first came to The Field I got a bit carried
                                        away with tasting all those nice plants and started
                                        eating stuff that is not meant to be eaten (Senecio
                                        jacobaea), it was a young one and I only took a little
                                        bit, *without any ill effects*. If I hadn't learned
                                        more about this plant and mixed in my daily salads, my
                                        liver - and I - would be gone.

                                        Frank.

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                                      • annahummingtree
                                        We all know what we know (each of us have our own bits of the cosmic puzzle) and the brilliant thing about an email group such as this is that it allows us to
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jan 6, 2007
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                                          We all know what we know (each of us have our own bits of the cosmic puzzle) and the brilliant thing about an email group such as this is that it allows us to exchange our knowledge and experiences and learn from each other.
                                          Dear Wolf, as a trained medical herbalist (now retired) I think that Frank was wise to sound a serious note of caution. Most herbs are valuable healers, which can often be used even long-term with great benefits, but there are enough really powerful dangerous herbs to make it very important not just to know whether a herb is poisonous or not, but also the exact dosages for particular individuals, how often to take them, how long, in what combinations, and so on. Just testing herbs on the skin on the inner elbow is just not good enough.
                                          Dear Frank, at the same time, it is heartening to come accross someone like Wolf, who has had a life-long relationship with herbs. Based on my own lifetime experience I believe that being friends with the plants enhances their potency, very much like any loving relationship enhances healing. It is not uncommon that the plants give us the knowledge how we can work with them for healing, but this is only possible if there is deep communication, familiarity and respect with our plant-relatives. What works for some people can never really be recommended as a general recipe for success.
                                          In these days with so many really good books and also an absolute treasure of information and pictures available on the Internet, no one needs to resort to testing out themselves whether a herb is poisonous or not. Anyhow, even if you could establish this by yourself (almost impossible since many toxins take time to show their lethal effects), this tells you nothing about dosage (all important in poisonous plants, which are often great healers in specific minute dosages), how to use and prepare a particular herb, which can often be of vital relevance in treating serious conditions, etc.etc.
                                          In survival conditions, when you have to use unknown plants as food, it is recommended practice to hold a small piece of plant material under the tongue, where substances are relatively easily transferred to the bloodstream. You then have to pay attention to what sensations this causes, locally and in the rest of your body. But how could we possibly recommend this practice in a situation where we have such an abundance of information all around us?
                                          As someone, who has studied herbs and the culture of their use for many years, I can say with some confidence that our original knowledge of the herbs did not come from 'experimentation', as is commonly believed. All ancient cultures and remaining indigenous cultures (eg. in the Amazon) tell us that this knowledge was communicated to us by the plants themselves and after that of course the ever increasing empirical experience of working with the plants. The trouble is nowadays that people no longer have the sort of relationship with the natural world where this is any longer a possibility, in which case please take your guidance from established and proven traditions and research!.
                                          What I would recommend is for anyone with a serious interest in plants (and the above subject) to read Stephen Harrod Buhner books: "The Secret Teachings of Plants: The Intelligence of the Heart in the Direct Perception of Nature" and "The Lost Language of Plants: The Ecological Importance of Plant Medicines for Life on Earth". Of course there are many knowledgeable good writers on the subject, but this guy is really outstanding. He knows his subject and a lot of other subjects besides. He is a rare combination of being thoroughly versed in traditional ways of relating to plants, as well as being up to date with cutting edge science. His research is immaculate. He's also an excellent writer (and poet). But most important of all (in my opinion) he will help to change people's relationships with plants (and with themselves).
                                          Please Google him or look him for reviews. I believe his books are worth boxes full of others.
                                          Green leaves and Love, AnnaHummingtree

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Frank
                                          ... Can you be more specific in about the incorrect information in my reply, I like to learn. ... My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs, it is about
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                            --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:
                                            > And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking
                                            > about.

                                            Can you be more specific in about the incorrect
                                            information in my reply, I like to learn.

                                            > I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up
                                            > with them in fact.

                                            My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs,
                                            it is about your poisonous plants test.

                                            > Just because you prefer to use
                                            > chemicals to natural forms of healing

                                            > > Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                                            > > I am very much for
                                            > > using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are
                                            very
                                            > > bad (= poisonous).

                                            > doesn't give
                                            > you the right to tell someone that they don't know
                                            > what they're talking about.

                                            Anybody is allowed to point out wrong information.

                                            But what gives you the right to put words into my
                                            mouth?

                                            > As for identification of plants, again, I've been
                                            > doing this for more than half a century.

                                            You might familiar with plants and their uses, a lot
                                            of people regrettably aren't. It does the advocacy
                                            of using plants no good if somebody without affinity
                                            for & knowledge of plants takes your test and gets
                                            poisoned.

                                            Frank


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                                          • Frank
                                            ... I believe this too. On the PFAF website a lot of good reasons are given for growing perennial plants. One thing I found that isn t mentioned is the
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                              > Based on my own
                                              > lifetime experience I believe that being friends
                                              > with the plants enhances their potency, very much
                                              > like any loving relationship enhances healing.

                                              I believe this too. On the PFAF website a lot
                                              of good reasons are given for growing perennial
                                              plants. One thing I found that isn't
                                              mentioned is the different relationship with
                                              perennial plants. (I am not talking about medicinal
                                              plants here but edible ones). When I pick a salad I
                                              visit a lot of plants, whilst taking leaves I often
                                              talk with them, now they are the best friends I
                                              have at The Field and an important reason for me
                                              to go back there regularly. It's definitely different
                                              from growing lettuce.

                                              > It is
                                              > not uncommon that the plants give us the knowledge
                                              > how we can work with them for healing, but this is
                                              > only possible if there is deep communication,
                                              > familiarity and respect with our plant-relatives.

                                              My communication with plants hasn't regrettably
                                              reached this level, but maybe I am just more
                                              interested
                                              if they are edible (and nice tasting) or not.
                                              I seem to developing a sense of poisonous plants,
                                              but I would not trust my self, and always check on
                                              other peoples experiences.

                                              > In survival conditions, when you have to use unknown
                                              > plants as food, it is recommended practice to hold a
                                              > small piece of plant material under the tongue,
                                              > where substances are relatively easily transferred
                                              > to the bloodstream. You then have to pay attention
                                              > to what sensations this causes, locally and in the
                                              > rest of your body.

                                              Under survival conditions I would first
                                              do a skin test (what Wolf described), then a your
                                              test,
                                              then to chew a bit without swallowing, then to eat
                                              a little bit. Between each test there should be
                                              enough time (a day), and as you say you have to pay
                                              attention. Only test one plant at a time. Still some
                                              poisonous plants might slip through, don't continue
                                              eating the plant after survival without looking
                                              up other peoples experiences.

                                              I found the remaining bit of a your mail very
                                              interesting. I will take a look at the books
                                              Stephen Harrod Buhner books. As I'm very interested
                                              in deepening my relation with plants. If anybody
                                              on the list has experience or advice, I'd like to
                                              hear!

                                              Frank

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                                            • Dee Harris
                                              Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not include
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                                Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not include herbs such as monkshood or anything like that. When I spoke of testing on the inner part of the elbow, I was refering to the possibility of an allergic reaction to these same herbs such as rose hips, hibiscus and such.
                                                However, you shot me down like I was a rank amateur and I am far from that. Not everyone can use sage tea for example, or rosemary tea and that's why I posted the warning.
                                                Maybe next time before you open your mouth you will ask for clarification first.
                                                Wolf

                                                Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                                                --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:
                                                > And you, Sir, have no idea of what you're talking
                                                > about.

                                                Can you be more specific in about the incorrect
                                                information in my reply, I like to learn.

                                                > I"ve studies herbs all of my life. Grew up
                                                > with them in fact.

                                                My comment was not about your knowledge of herbs,
                                                it is about your poisonous plants test.

                                                > Just because you prefer to use
                                                > chemicals to natural forms of healing

                                                > > Frank <chaewen@...> wrote:
                                                > > I am very much for
                                                > > using plants, a lot of chemical medicines are
                                                very
                                                > > bad (= poisonous).

                                                > doesn't give
                                                > you the right to tell someone that they don't know
                                                > what they're talking about.

                                                Anybody is allowed to point out wrong information.

                                                But what gives you the right to put words into my
                                                mouth?

                                                > As for identification of plants, again, I've been
                                                > doing this for more than half a century.

                                                You might familiar with plants and their uses, a lot
                                                of people regrettably aren't. It does the advocacy
                                                of using plants no good if somebody without affinity
                                                for & knowledge of plants takes your test and gets
                                                poisoned.

                                                Frank

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                                              • Frank
                                                ... This is quite different from what you wrote before, And it is indeed very sensible to test even plants that are considered save (also when trying food
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jan 11, 2007
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                                                  --- Dee Harris <corbywolf13@...> wrote:

                                                  > Sir, the plants I spoke of are ones that are
                                                  > normally plants used in healing. NOTHING I ever use
                                                  > is poisious. I deal with healing herbs. These do not
                                                  > include herbs such as monkshood or anything like
                                                  > that. When I spoke of testing on the inner part of
                                                  > the elbow, I was refering to the possibility of an
                                                  > allergic reaction to these same herbs such as rose
                                                  > hips, hibiscus and such.

                                                  This is quite different from what you wrote before,
                                                  And it is indeed very sensible to test even plants
                                                  that are considered save (also when trying food
                                                  plants that you haven't eaten before).

                                                  > Maybe next time before you open your mouth you
                                                  > will ask for clarification first.

                                                  Because your post didn't have the above context,
                                                  I felt a obligation to warn people that this
                                                  test doen't prevent accidental poisoning with all
                                                  plants. Outside the above context your post was
                                                  dangerous. Your last post was clear and had good
                                                  advice. Thank you.

                                                  Frank

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