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6167Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

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  • infowolf1
    Aug 7, 2013
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      2) Most of the plants here-mentioned are NOT 'wild' and/or 'native' (if that term can ever truly be used) 
      REPLY: good point about "if that term can ever truly be used"  - so why worry?
      in the regions under consideration, but have been deliberately introduced to areas, especially as modified/bred/cross-bred/domesticated/grafted forms,
      REPLY: a pointer to a good issue: MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT PLANTING GMO.
      get organic heritage etc. seeds only for this project, and preferably for your own 
       and similarly. Many have been weakened in the process of breeding, in the process of preferentially selecting or designing for chosen traits to the dismissal/denigration of others, but have not been planted or bred to suit the Holistic entirety 
      REPLY: what does that mean? two points. ONE. The holistic entirety is dynamic
      and does a lot of changing on its own. Some kinds of plants drive out others, some
      attract pests and some repel them. TWO. hybridization occurs in the wild. The 
      rutabaga is a natural hybrid of turnip and cabbage.
      - despite the regurgitated propaganda/rhetoric/sales-labels/marketing to the contrary. Many of the PFAF plants are very introduced species to, for example, the UK from around the world, from different climates, with different vertebrate/invertebrate/fungal/climatic relationships, interactions, dependencies, etc...
      REPLY: Some plants here to judge by suppressed info about their presence in some 
      old world burial situations, and the presence here of some plants closely similar to 
      old world plants, shows there were deliberate or accidental introductions. tobacco,
      cocaine and tomatoes come to mind as going east, (BEFORE Columbus) 
      and who knows what came here? The Mexican Hairless is obviously the same as a 
      Chinese dog, a Thailand dog is a dead ringer for the Rhodesian Ridgeback, 
      supporting other reasons to think the Chinese travelled around the world. This has been 
      going on a long time.

      The peculiar differences about relationships are relevant to the needs of the 
      plants themselves, and therefore their ability to survive in the wild. If it can't survive
      in the wild, then it isn't a problem. If it is normally food for some old world animal
      that doesn't mean it can't be food here for new world animals.

      Some introductions have been without human aid. Landbridges and floating
      debris from hurricanes have been travel means for many animals and a 
      tornado can suck up seeds and something this lightweight can travel thousands
      of miles in the upper atmosphere before being dumped.

      The opossum with its prehensile tail has hitched rides all over the world, 
      almost the only marsupial outside of Australia and nearby islands. Who knows
      what seeds travelled with it in its fur?

      Migrating birds poop seeds. 

      Cattle Egrets from Africa somehow made it across the Atlantic decades ago
      and established a flock in Texas. Who knows what seeds were in their guts
      and got pooped out here after the flight?

       Most of the plants here-mentioned are being selected for being USEFUL to humans, not necessarily useful, or appropriate, to other forms of life;
      So what? ALL forms of life would do the same if they had the option. The whole
      points about PFAF is pretty much the benefit of humans and secondarily animals
      we work with.

      Of course if some plant has a tendency to kill everything that barely nibbles
      it, and has its primary value as a low margin for error medicinal plant, we should
      not plant it but find something else with a safer margin for our use and less 
      danger to animals.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>
      To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>
      Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 9:44 am
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      Apologies to continue this thread, but some point need to be recorded here:
      1) Clearly, to state the transforming flow of 'growth'/'transformation' from 'seeds'/'host(s)', and noting population numbers, densities, and geologic time, cannot be implicating a Static assumption;
      2) Most of the plants here-mentioned are NOT 'wild' and/or 'native' (if that term can ever truly be used) in the regions under consideration, but have been deliberately introduced to areas, especially as modified/bred/cross-bred/domesticated/grafted forms, and similarly. Many have been weakened in the process of breeding, in the process of preferentially selecting or designing for chosen traits to the dismissal/denigration of others, but have not been planted or bred to suit the Holistic entirety - despite the regurgitated propaganda/rhetoric/sales-labels/marketing to the contrary. Many of the PFAF plants are very introduced species to, for example, the UK from around the world, from different climates, with different vertebrate/invertebrate/fungal/climatic relationships, interactions, dependencies, etc... Most of the plants here-mentioned are being selected for being USEFUL to humans, not necessarily useful, or appropriate, to other forms of life;
      3) Importantly, these myriad plant (and gardening/agricultural/mechanised-agricultural) introductions have been arranged to occur on a large scale, in lightning-fast geological time. If we illustrate from Victorian times, and assume 70 years for a human lifespan, then in two human lifespans or less please consider how many domesticated/bred plant an animal species have been introduced, gardened, farmed, etc...and using what techniques. How has the countryside changed in those 140 years alone. What has happened to all the plants, animals, fungi, lichens, etc...? IF -and it' actually a big if - we put some trust in so-called 'Science', which, in practice rather than rhetoric, is usually highly prejudicial, filtering, selective, rote-passed-on-or-else, etc...and consider the rate of species transport under non-human conditions then, whilst all manner of rates pertain to particular individual items, we might, for example, consider decades, hundreds or thousands of years (perhaps) for plants to reclaim following glacial retreat following ice ages, or volcanic eruptions, especially in the sense of the term 'ecosystem(s)' rather than just pioneer species. The geologic rate, and number, of all these changes, has significance. Added to that Towns and Cities and Transportation Networks and Vehicles and Solar Farms and Wind Farms and Indutrial Esttes and Aquaculture/Greenhouse/Hydroponics/Aeroponic farms being Engineering PLANTed all over the place, spreading, growing, smothering, and who, amongst that lot, evidences maturity? Human children are currently presuming a playground of a planet, forests tuned into playgrounds and parks for entertainment, planetary geoengineering projects already underway, and the children are encouraged, and encourage and congratulate each other, to behave thusly - though require little encouragement...just the bait/alLures/Carrot(s)... There are myriad excuses put forward for such behaviours, myriad defeces to try to uphold, but hardly any ever evidence a mature STOP button, or a PAUSE button. Instead, it's the wacky races, school sack races, egg-and-spoon-races, bait them an idea "And they're off...!" with barely a Penelope Pitstop - excuses to the hilt...Millions, Billions, bhaving so...in a scale of weeks, months, years, a few decades...;
      4) The fossil record is highly problematic, and for many many reasons. Put your footprint in wet concrete/lime-and-sand-mortar-mix, and fling it to one side, dig the garden up and put soil all over the footprint. Alleged thousands of years later you'll make a hominid famous for discovering your 'fosslised' footprint in strata that pre-date the present era, and they'll have to re-write the electronic books, and sack the old 'experts'... One of the many reasons why ossil interpretations are at best highly risky is that presence of what seem to be fossils does not, for the must part, include presence of everything that might have also been but which was not fossilized. If I lock you in my garden and encourage you to dig, 'cos I've called myself an Archaeologist so that I could shut everone else up and get them off-site, in case they threaten my conclusions/hypotheses, then you might discover something that you choose or have been trained (or else) to interpret to be fossils, and write reports, write books, maybe even get rich and famous or have Senor Spielbergio direct exciting films following your discoveries, and you may even win the Nobel prize. But what did you miss? Beyond the garden...? Within the garden...? When? Where? If you tried to write all about the garden, accurately, thoroughly, correctly, you'll never finish writing... I've written ~30,000 A4 pages of a book, and it still only notes a portion of the topic being written about... To presume 'expert' status from reports is highly dubious at best, and to presume the conclusions to be accurate, thorough, enough to go on, especially given the raft of assumptions, prejudices, selectivity of institutions that preclude mention of disallowed/unpopular/job-risking hypotheses, extrapolations, and Copenhagen Interpretation Observer-Influences/-Filtering is more likely that not to be SEEDED/GROWN/GROUNDED upon error, and then PROPAGATING/growing that error..., in the belief that the error is true 'cos the hrd say so and tell each other so... If you sample a bucket load of seawater, amongst the entire Ocean, do you become an expert? Many presume that they do, especially when they SEED reports, that SEED minds who read then and host the Stories being passed-on.... Just because homo sapiens decide to be confident amongst themselves, in the tribe, does not mean that their confidence is well-founded... Is the Earth flat? Shoul Copernicus be hung drawn and quartered ill-treated as a heretic?;
      5) Step 1 is to sensitively, personally, get to know all of the flora, fauna, and fungi of the local and regional area, and, especially, the soils and relationships and interactions, especially by living 'in amongst' such, not as an observer per se, not as a book-learning visitor, not as a current-society townie personality better suited to cages. To presume book-knowledge is sufficient or even accurate is way off... Are all humans alike? Is one human's behaviour the same as another? So if the book or sales label/entry says, 'Blackbird', or 'Lime Tree', say, then does that mean that the behaviour and interactions are all known, in the same way that stating and entry: ' 'Homo sapiens', aka. 'Human': A Primate that wears clothes, makes things up a lot, and wants to change things 'cos it feels less inadequate less bored and less out of control that way and because it does not trust nature to do things correctly and presumes dominion over any an all forms of life and Planet(s) 'cos all the others seem to do so too and it's easier just to do what everyone ese is doin' innit, and it might be scary to instead seem to be different and not be on the bandwagon and, significantly, because most are captive and live in cages of many kinds and do not live amongst and in the wilderness, and so presume to control as if outwards from the cages to affect 'out there', thusly encaging/controlling/tagging/grafting/breeding/GMing/farming other forms of life in gardens, parks, zoos, national parks, marine parks, farms, nurseries, genetic binds, etc...'; Step 2 is to very carefully consider what are all the possible changes that could occur, and to aid the natural world to adapt in appropriate timescales to ANY such changes by incorporating appropriate behaviours, plantings, and perhaps removals, wit minimal adverse affect to other forms of life,; Step 3: Careful species selections within that mix, cohesively and maturely aided, possible to withdraw if adverse, to facilitate humans to life in ways that harm as few other forms of life and interactions as practicable and that enable, not harm, nature's ability to self-define.;
      6) The plants that are most commonly planted by, for example, readers of this forum are likely to have been grown and sold by nurseries in a different region/soil/area/country, and/or are root-grafted, and/or are 'domesticated', and/or are bred/selected and not 'unmolested' varieties. Clearly, some of the plants can be, for example, cuttings from 'wild' forms, or seeds from wild forms, or suckers from 'wild' forms, but how 'wild' the 'wild', and how appropriate? Whilst it is possible to do this, it may not always be appropriate. Some are resistance to some diseases, which has ecosystem implications. Some are weakened in other traits and, in the future, when animals/birds/plants have got used to them, they fail...and the birds/animals who have got used to them may also fail, especially if they become dependent.
      A significant risk in some areas for the UK, for example, is a PFAF plant, Gaultheria shallon 'Salal'. The seeds can be spread by birds from a railway-planted plant, and risk smothering regional moorland habitats and removing birdlife, butterflies etc. from such areas. I have plans to enable such growing BUT ALONG WITH CO-ORDINATED MANAGEMENT OF SUCH GROWTHS BY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN 'THE WILDS', because it produces useful food, can grow in 'the wild', and can be 'managed' in areas where it's growth is inappropriate, provided that it's done in a 'managed'/'cohesive' can-eradicate-if-absolutely-necessary way and, better still, if nature naturally or by organisation manages/removes such plants. But if someone just guerrilla gardens - a good concept if properly done - but without the concomitant other facets, it may need the more mature to come along and clean up the children's mess again...
      If anything goes 'in nature', we could kill most humans and thereby prevent many of the problems. But there are reasons why most people, so far, haven't done that. I say most people for a reason...
      P.S. If you (a generic 'you') find trawling through these emails to be laborious, time-consuming, and too much effort, then how can you possibly be bothered enough to behave properly in relation with the natural world, which requires far more consideration. As previously stated, the likes of Charles Darwin went to a lot of trouble, and long arduous sea voyages, to glean scraps of information - much of his apparent lifetime. Such attitudes are not, yet, apparent in those who buy PFAF-like plants online or from a local nursery ad just stick 'em in the ground, the plant version of supermarket shopping which requires little or no yearly effort to grow and nurture and learn...
      All the Best!
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2013, 9:57
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      I might add, nature is highly dynamic, does all kinds of things
      without our involvement as well as with our involvement, some
      of it quite destructive. 

      I think you are working from an assumption that everything
      is static, and whatever was going on when white man first
      got there is all that ever happened.

      Horses, for instance, are considered foreign to the new world.
      Fossils tell a different story. They went extinct here, then got
      reintroduced. There are many kinds of animals and insects
      that went extinct without our help. 

      Forests themselves change over time, having a life cycle of
      sorts that involves replacement of one kind of tree by another.

      Most of the plants being discussed here, are commonplace
      in the wild anyway. Some were here already, others escaped.

      -----Original Message----- From: Infowolf1 <Infowolf1@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      I don't rely on sources like that.

      And I don't rely on subjective delusional (aka enlightenment) feelings
      to guide me either.

      -----Original Message-----From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 1:15 amSubject: Fw: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Hi All,
      May I please note:
      1) Humans, despite our wishes otherwise, lie, filter, are prejudicial, conditioned, fashionable, alter things, make errors, have vested interests, act for their own self-interests, are tunnel-visioned/blinkered, only see through a glass darly, are under orders to say/write this not that and that not this, are subject to and create propaganda, or else... As an employee, whether or academia or not, you are mandated/conditioned to write what is ordered/expected by the organisation and/or funders thereof, whether that is correct, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or not - and Marketing have a far wider remit which rarely states the truth correctly. They who pay your wages can leverage you. Societal fashions alter you. Academics would rather keep their jobs/Professorships/funding than risk losing the same if they tell the unpopular truths. Those who are alleged to have 'won' political/legal/military battles are expected to control and make-up the propaganda, the narrative, which the masses, an organisations, then follow. It is thus a childhood error to presume the ability to wholly trust presumed historical sources, interpretations, reports, etc...as being true and correct,  a childhood error that presumes that surrogate parent(s) would not lie to you. It is thus inappropriate to presume solidity and correctness to supposed 'data', whether deemed to be historical or not. Data, reports, histories, can be and have been and are regularlymade-up, pretend, false, fake, frm which seed(s)/branch(es), thusly-seeded, they are then propagated/vector'd by human hosts thereafter as if truisms, which they aren't. This is key, since some of the landscape-changes, planetary changes, etc...that people are taking as being correct are not, are made-up, pretend, false, fake, for particular reasons. Trusting Colonial accounts of what allegedly happened in the Americas and the settlement thereof, and inferring, for example, plant usages from such means, is problematic. Just because someone is called an archaeologist, for example, does not mean that they are a) Honest, b) Infallible, c) Not Prejudicial, d) Not making some or all things up. The might, they might not. Just because alleged centuries of word-of-mouth or historical accounts of plant usages, such as herbal medicines - e.g. Culpepper-esque - does NOT mean that they are automatically a) Wholly Correct, b) Trustworthy, c) Passed-on Correctly, d) Understood correctly, e) Not made-up. It is thus essential, in any facet of life, let-alone considering plant types, plant usages, allegedy-scientific/-historical reports, landscape histories, etc...to be rather more discerning, lest falling in the widespread trap of merely regurgitating from a presumed-solid-baseline-ground that is in actuality shaky or false, lest you and planet earth fall... Proper research - such as might underlie Forest Gardening clmed histories, say - will rarely be so definite as to claim solidity where there is risk of error in assuming solidity;
      2) Let us say that Christine plants some plants in the natural world, in a plot that she can control for the rest of her lovely life. Have others access to that plot? Will they be inspired to nick seeds, take cuttings, and/or plant similarly elsewhere? Will the be inspired to set up organisation(s) to spread such plants, and then some, further afield? Thus, will Christine's plantings remain in a closed-system, or risk being spread, propagated, branching, seeding, reproducing, growing, infecting, vector'd, hosted, further afield? How geologically rapidly? Will EVERY person so-inspired be responsible, as Christine suggests that she would wish to be? If not, what might Christine then, unwittingly, have unleashed, as Isengard perhaps? From what trickle might flood, and how soon, how responsibly, flooding, deviating, engulfing, drowning, transforming, what/whom in its path? What first Victorian plant collector and single seed/sample? What now...? How long will Christine be around to tend/control such plantings? If she is no longer able to be around, what happens then? What boundaries, in place for a geologically short while, may perhaps come down, and then...? From what Settlers of a large continent, to a ravaged Continent with te natives culled/exterminated/enslaved? Does the person who starts a Revolution retain control of that Revolution forever and throughout, or, once the seed if planted, does it spread, infectiously, to propagate via hosts/vectors who have not earned the wisdom (perhaps) of the initiator, and Revolution is cheap to them, to the latter, who just have to pop down to the local nursery to get plants from half-away around the world obtained by a skilled world-travelling Charles Darwin. It's easy for the latter. Cheap. Requiring little or no skills or wisdom, and not earnt by them.
      The initial seed(s) may contain all that is required, like Lightning Leader(s), to do tha hard job of breaking down the iinitial hard resistance and forging the routes/paths/ways, as bamboo through concrete, but the soft growth that follows, that leaves the seed behind, is soft, trainable, tender, and has an easier time of it, as the Lightning Channel(s), once-led, once opened, are populated by (inSidious) Hoards of Excited Charged-Up Pent-Up Human Particles trying to get into the January Sales with the allegedly new idea that has got them all Worked up, who do not have the skills, the cares, the responsibility(ies), but just follow-my-leader(s)...to Thunderous applause...so Planetary Liberty dies...;
      3) Please understand that we do need to plant diversely in the natural world, BUT, that you and almost all are being deliberately seeded to run amok to follow temptations/whims irresponsibly without the concomitant discipline(s), and almost all, thus far, host, vector, channel, buy, set-up, thusly...with con-sequences...
      Many forms of life, and ecosystems, will be and are being caused upheaval, upset, inappropriate destabilisation, inSidiously in geologically lightning-fast time to Thunderous applause CLAPped on...mutual congratulations al the way, as Lord of the Flies infants in a presumed plantar playground with fun games to play with... But someone/something, somewhere, gets messed up, and someone/somewhere, if possible, has to try to more maturely Heal the situation.
      4) To state that plants and animals and people spread plants/seeds, as if that is reason enough, excuse enough, to do whatever one likes whenever one likes, is tantamount to stating that 'anything goes, so we can do what we like'. Is stating that people and plants and animals di, so dying's alright, tantamount t saying that therefore killing, murdering, militarily invading/slaughtering, is fine and dandy so we have justified doing so against all comers...? Is saying that Weapons of Mass Destruction are there, held by a very few, tantamount to saying that, therefore, it's fine and dandy to invade Iraq and kill over a million people, most of whom would have had nothing to do with it, may of them children/young-plants. Is stating that pollen can fly around the world tantamount to inferring that, therefore, planting whatever pollen'd plant we like anywhere around the world I justified, alright 'guv', "They do it so I'm alright jack and I can therefore do it too!"
      5) What might Gandalf and Galadriel and Aragorn, in the Story, havh NOT enabled by NOT taking-up the Ring, because THROUGH them, what might happen...?
      If you really want to be a GREEN (WO)MAN, then what comes pouring into/out of you and your mouth/limbs etc...perhaps to try t takeover the world, is of importance to correctly ascertain.
      Forest Gardening and plants, for example, in the right wise responsible disciplined mature hands may be one thing, but unleashed amongst and via the undisciplined 'cheap' and quicker and easier and more seduced (as noted above) populous, it is quite another, especially when the (stuck/dug-grooves) record of the populous, thus-far, is anything but disciplined and responsible an is encouraged quite the reverse... Lates ipod anyone? January Sales...planetary destruction cheap at half price, special offer..and they flood in, to Thunderous Clapping Applause at X-Mass...
      Best Wishes.

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2013, 18:32
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      firstly, the information about pre industrial and animal propagation
      of planting is based on solid historical contemporary and scientific

      secondly, of course all sorts of effects are made on life forms,
      BUT NOT JUST BY HUMAN ACTION, by the actions of other
      life forms. This goes on all the time with or without us.

      Most of the plants listed occur wild anyway. In my own garden,
      there is started a berry bush whether raspberry or blackberry
      I don't know yet they look the same, that was undoubtedly 
      the result of a bird pooping in flight after feeding on such 
      bushes in a creek under a mile from here.

      That bush once grown is likely to have several impacts. It will
      occasion more caution by a visiting cat who will have to change
      which part of the fence he climbs on. Birds and other critters
      will feed on the berries. The leaves that die and fall will make
      a compost effect for some nearby flowers. Probably bees will
      get some nectar or pollen from the berry flowers. 

      Untended it can just take over. Of course, I am going to be
      tending it so it doesn't get out of control. 

      -----Original Message----- From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...> Sent: Tue, Aug 6, 2013 3:18 am Subject: Fw: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Hi Christine & Co.,
      Just to note briefly, please. Many people have some awareness, albeit at best second-hand (usually far further down the Chinese whispers web/chain) without personal checking (e.g. seeded with notions/ideas that thus PROPAGATE, are PROPAGATED..), that various species seem to have been planted by Human tribes, so-called natives, and of course by other 'natural' means such as animals, wind, water, etc...
      Wheat, Barley, Maize, Domesticated-Apple Orchards, Non-edible aesthetic gardens, many vegetabls, etc... having been sai to have been distributed thusly.
      From, for example, the Wheat seed being transported and transplated, what blinkered patchwork of monocultural fields with minimal hedgerows left, pesticided, herbicided, fungicided,  mechanized, supermark'd, soil-sdepleted, birds and pollinators displaced r made extinct, was thus grown, propagated, to take-over so much of the landscape...and feed the aphid-like population growth of humans, who further host/seed/propagate branches of the same...? How many of said humans, most of whom have never themselves checked from first principles what they believe that they believe and advocate, defend ch behaviours against any and all assumed threats, comments, etc...an thus keep such behaviours going, fed, watered, tended, supported, and BARK as Dog Wood(s) at others they wish to keep away, beyond the BARK? So it continues...
      How many know and knew, correctly, thoroughly, caringly, and intimately, all of the forms of life, and interactions, that they would be affecting? How many, instead, just 'do it', 'did it', and nature and other forms of life had to take it on the chin, all the consequences of the blinkered, quick, easy, behaviours?
      How many, when Broad-Cast seeded with the latest ipod or computer game or flat-screen TV rush out and buy such, use such, without care for the consequences that they deem to be 'somewhere out there', something else's problem, "Nature will take care of it", as infants presuming that some surrogate parent will take care of everything, the ideas PLANTED in their mind(s), some falling in/via fertile mind(s)/ground, which they PROPAGATE...to what planetary consequences. How many truly know and correctly understand much or anything about the natural world unless at best second-hand or from TV or books, rather than living in the natural world entirely themselves?
      If such humans are seeded with whims/ideas, fashions, which they host, channel, empower, without first accruing hard-earned wisdom, responsibility, then, even if one or two people who DO evidence maturity DO plant particular plants in the (remnant) wilds after serious thorough consideration of all the likely interactions and consequences to all forms of life and being correct in knowing that doing so will not adversely affect the natural world or seed other people to behave inappropriately, then that is one thing, but what happens in practice is that someone seeds the idea of, say, permaculture, and before the Terry Pratchett responsible Truth has got it's hat on, millions are out transforming the natural world in a fraction on one homo sapiens lifespan according to the "Get with the PROGRAM(ME)" 'IM-PLANTED ideas, EPI-SOWED EPISODE(S), thusly Channelled.
      ...and pat each other on the back at how clever they are, congratulate each other, an attack or evade or BARK at those whom they deem to threaten the implanted idea(s).
      How many human beings are there, currently, IF you believe the offered data? With what population densities? With what demands?/expectations? Wih wht sensitivities/lack-of-sensitivities? With what skills to be self-reliant, and responsibly-so, in the natural world, or not? With what closeness of experience with the natural world as if they are truly part of it and amongst their kin, or instead having GROWN UP in captivity in towns, cities, and similarly, where TV or books or parks are farms are their idea of 'nature' and 'knowledge' in such regards? How easily are such humans SEEDED, 'implanted, and Wacky Races "And they're off!.."?
      Yet, by comparison, what population densities the so-called 'Native peoples'? How close with, sensitive to, observant of, and responsible with regards to the natural world such peoples? If they introduced or eradicated species, might they have done so from a, relatively-speaking, more close-with-nature awareness, experience, co-ordinated responsibility, else suffered accordingly? Could they be better trusted with Forest Gardening, and more slow introduction of such, than 'modern' humans?
      Please correctly realize that most of the ideas that you believe to be the case, and human ways of life (which are scouring PLAN(E)T Earth), have been deliberately seeded, PLANTed, Broad-CAST(e), and with what consequences...
      PFAF is idea(s)... Not all are, as yet, appropriate. Many are, many are not, here, there, then, now, not now, etc...
      Yet PFAF communiques, and plants, are being run-away-with and planted at geologically rapid rates, in non-cohesive/piecemea ways, by persons who, as yet at least, perhaps have not the closeness with the natural world to be as responsible as perhaps they ought, and by some who wish to cash-in, feel self-important as children with a new game to feel important about, but without, yet, the more GROWN up maturity to know when to stop, halt, wait, do it 'right' first time...
      Seeded Colonies in North America, and from such Seed(s) (branches) what has thereby grown...?
      All the Best.

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, 5 August 2013, 21:02
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      nature itself plants such things all the time. birds poop seeds, squirrels drop or
      bury stuff, etc. etc. so called invasive non native plants and animals sometimes
      have a prior history in the location and are just returning. The list of plants
      the other poster described are often wild anyway. 

      If someone runs off seeding a location, a lot of seeds with be lost to animals
      and pests, and some will survive. And such pre seeding is necessary if
      foraging isn't going to lead to depletion, especially in a disaster situation.

      Did you know that in CA and probably any place that has a history of
      Indians eating acorns, that the oak tree forests are often descended from
      deliberate planting by Indians?

      -----Original Message----- From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...> Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 4:40 am Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Dear All,
      Regards planting on (allegedly) Public land.
      Please don't - yet.
      I have plans to aid the UK and further afield in these regards in what might be called a cohesive yet still 'liberal' way, where far more awareness of the interactions, consequences, life-form, etc...requires to be inherent.
      Currently, 'give' someone 'seed' idea(s), and they're off like infants presuming a playground of life, self-involevd, self-important, moody, dislikign anyone risking the continuance of 'their' 'seeded/seeding game, planting... Suggest 'foraging' and the, potentially, millions, billions, of humans do so and, before you know it, depletion is the name of the game, earthquake-like unsettling upheaval and change of ecosystems the norm, which, like a table cloth waved excitedy about by well-meaning children trying (perhaps) to see what happens or to get that fly off of it, can unsettle the entire table unless done magically, as a tablecloth rapidly whipped away whilst not unsettling any of the fine fragile porcelain. Suggest monocultural forestry plantations, and they're off... Suggest tagging animals and they're off... Suggest wildlife spy cameras, and they're off... Suggest Permacultiure, and 'they're off' out of permaculture courses transforming according that that latest fad, using the suggested plants, bought/grafted/made-available by the fashionable nurseries, in femptosecond geological/ecosystem time,  transforming yet again, whether nature wants it like that or not... Suggest town-planning, and they're off planting Towns (which grow to become cities).. Suggest industry is good, and tey;re of building Engineering PLANT(s)... Suggest colonializing the Americas and Australia, and the Natives (not just humans) forced, wrangled, mandated, to up-roo else be poisoned/pesticided/fungicided, etc...and the Stories thusly-seeded grow, and consume, transforming... Suggest 'Sustainability' and they're off marketing the unsustainable as 'sustainable'/'green'/'eco' and trying to SUSTAIN the 'stuff', the 'materialism', the 'plant breeding and GM-modifications and wild-plantings', the industries, 'good for jobs', etc...and such grow, are fed, consume, transform, whether the natural world wants it or not, is pleasantly affected or not...
      ...as if ecosystems didn't have enough Earth-shaking changes to deal with...that might sink many an entire populated town build on sand...
      Please don't...yet.
      There are those who read these forums who encourage, 'seed', BROAD-CAST, the masses to behave inappropriately, and watch them run amok as if they understand anything. There are those who read these forums who keep  close watch on those who might spill the Giant's stalk beans... There are a very very few who DO have some comprehension of these things and some wisdom and concern, but who appreciate and worry about what happens if ideas get into and/or via the 'wrong' hands/minds...
      There is much more to mature, wise, and genuine Forest gardening, Gardening Eden, than you may know, care about, or certainly have been told. If you feel self-important, perhaps as a child with a new/'old' game to play trying to prevent others from stopping you, as a soldier mindlessly unquestioningly complicitly slaughtering in the Middle East under the notion of 'Saving Lives', to make yourself feel important or having something meaningful to do, and/or out of vested interests, then you are merely being used 'by' the 'Story(ies)'/'Idea(s)' as a host, much as the Dawkin's 'Meme(s)' re-branding of Green Man Seeded River Out of Eden past knowledge...
      Luke: "Is the Dark Side stronger?" Master Yoda: "No! Quicker, easier, more seductive..."
      Do you think the Light side would evidence the behaviours, laws, enforcements, fashions, pollutions, myopia, that abounds...? Do you think the Light side would try to undermine/usurp/make-illegal the ability of self-reliance and force everyone into total dependent, indebted, and thus leveraged, domesticated, farmed, roped-in, treadmill'd at work, put to work, harnessed and harnessing...?
      Will you truly be allowed, or lead, to do what is truly right, or just what you have been led/baited/lured/enticed to 'think' might be?
      Do you think that you are being 'led'/'lead(Pb)' by the Mad as Hatters? How toxic to minds, the Plumbed-in Lead? How does the Garden grow then? With what symptoms, diseases, pests, rot?
      We do require to plant differently on/in Nature's land...it can never be 'the public's', it can never be 'humans'' land...but please may I kindly ask, suggest, that you may yourself, and/or that you may be encouraging of/via others, to do that which is NOT appropriate, that which is myopic, fashionable, that which is peacemeal and fracturing, that which is destabilising, that which is blinkered, that which is fragmented, that which is a tiny fraction of a humanoid lifespan and as short-sighted as such, that which disregards other forms of life an things going on in favour of quickness, ease, seductive ideas.
      A few apple trees here and there may be one thing, but from the seeded trickle what Amazon may grow, consuming, transforming, undermining, eroding, feeding, spreading,...?
      Please...there I more to what is going on than what plants to buy and plant from the local fashion's garden catalogue/nursery, or what to run out and apply from the latest (permaculture?) course...
      I can but ask...
      It usually falls to the more mature to try to clean up the broken crockery/lives/tableware that the childish have as Lords of the Flies Gaia'n spead everywhere, whilst the childish try to attack/gag/heads-on-spikes the more mature who clean up after them...
      Please be very careful what Idea(s) you allow through you, from you, via you, and host/empower/disempower.
      Gandalf and Galadriel, in the stories, knew better than to be Green Man in such cases and risk allowing/nabling the Ring to act through them...and chose other... whereas the Kings, theNine, Saruman, Sméagol, Boromir, and later Frodo, did not...to the near-extinction of Middle EARTH and all The Shire(s)...
      How are BerkShire, Devonshire, Herefordshire, Buckinghamshire, LondonShire, etc...these days...?
      PFAF - What Future are you REAL-ly planting...!?
      All the Best,
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com; ChristPerm@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013, 7:24
      Subject: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Someone on one of these two egroups suggested planting
      gardens in greenbelts or other public lands. My initial 
      reaction was relevant to you having an identifiable as such
      garden that you work and claim as yours. (maybe permits
      would be available.)

      But Alex Jones has made an interesting suggestion. That
      you plant various non GMO fruit trees and I guess you 
      could add the kind of veggies that can run wild and reseed,
      in such public land spaces, because they will go on and 
      be of use eventually in future. To whoever. Should look 
      like irregular scattered mixed growth, not like something 
      planned and deliberate.

      Good idea. Just don't treat it as exclusively yours, think 
      of it as aiding survival of those in the future who know 
      what kind of plants to look for to eat.


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