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Re: DRM Help!

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  • Lothar
    Hello, we already had the discussion 8khz vs 12khz IF. I also used the Fraunhofer software radio for decoding of DRM, which is now being useless. But as long
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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      Hello,

      we already had the discussion 8khz vs 12khz IF. I also used the Fraunhofer software radio for decoding of DRM, which is now being useless. But as long Nico consider the Fraunhofer software being a "legacy software" we have to live with DREAM and an exotic IF output of 8khz.

      73



      --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "hmaier1959" <maiarho@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Nico,
      >
      > thanks for the clarification. I am happy to hear that it is not because of insurmountable hardware restrictions why you prefered 8 instead of 12 kHz. And I understand that you didn't want to test all available DRM decoders because you had other priorities. However, I'd like to add some other aspects.
      >
      > - If you supported 12 instead of 8 kHz, ALL decoders would work, and not only one, Dream, so N would be 1 as well.
      >
      > - The reference decoder is not Dream, but the Fraunhofer engine. Compared to all other decoders, the Fraunhofer still offers the best decoding quality at the lowest CPU power required. In addition, the latest compiles of Dream, compiled with Visual C++ 2008, show some problems: High CPU load, low update frequency of the evaluation dialogue, and choppy audio, even at CPU loads < 100%.
      >
      > - 12 kHz has become a de facto standard for all programs that do IF post processing, and not only DRM decoding. 8 kHz is an uncommon IF frequency that is supported by Dream only.
      >
      > - While the Fraunhofer engine will support all future extensions of the DRM standard, the future of Dream is uncertain because it depends on the good will of a few programmers who do the programming during their leisure time.
      >
      > I bought the Fraunhofer software for my NRD 545, and when I bought the Perseus, I was absolutely sure I could still use it because of the high flexibility of the SDR concept. I am a bit disappointed because this software has become useless, and because 12 kHz seems to be doable without big problems, and because you categorically refuse to even think about this modification.
      >
      > I understand that DRM has not (yet) reached a high level of importance, and I could understand if you said you will do this with low priority, and not in the next software update. But your current message is, you won't do it at all, never. At that point, you sacrifice one of the major advantages of SDRs, their flexibility.
      >
      > 73, Horst
      >
      >
      > --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nico iv3nwv" <nicopal@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > > this was my idea, too, but it doesn't work. The audio output
      > > > sampling frequency of the Perseus is about 32kHz, therefore all
      > > > frequencies above 16kHz are cut in order to avoid aliasing. If you
      > > > mistune a DRM signal that way that the center is at 12 kHz, the
      > > > max. frequency of the DRM spectrum will be 17 kHz. However, all
      > > > frequencies above 16 kHz are filtered out, so decoding is not
      > > > possible.
      > >
      > > That's almost right, Horst.
      > > The Perseus audio output sampling frequency is 31.25 kHz, not 32, so far even a slightly larger portion if the DRM signal would be aliased (not really filtered) back into the first Nyquist zone.
      > >
      > >
      > > > I assume that the entire DSP portion of the Perseus FPGA is based
      > > > on this 32 kHz sampling frequency, and changing it would require a
      > > > major redesign of the FPGA code.
      > >
      > > No. It's not matter of the DSP made in the FPGA. The DDC core of Perseus outputs the IQ samples at no less than 125 kS/s and this would be sufficient for the software to generate a (real) IF signal up to 50 kHz or so.
      > > By the way a DRM signal spectrum is 10 kHz wide so mere a 10 kS/s (complex) sampling would be sufficient to decode it properly, not more.
      > > Unfortunately DRM decoders were designed for (analog) radios with low-IF (real valued, not complex) outputs and this required that unnecessary higher sampling frequencies were used.
      > >
      > > >Maybe this is why Nico doesn't want to change it... and maybe
      > > >performance aspects might play a role, too.
      > >
      > > No. The simple reason is that supporting N DRM decoders, with N>1, requires more time, tests and efforts than supporting just one of them.
      > >
      > > 73,
      > > Nico / IV3NWV
      > >
      >
    • mrzfrn
      ... ... today (2009-06-04 10a.m) on air, from Rome area : RAI 846 KHz, SantaPalomba, 30 Km south of Rome, 25 Kw,3 services (service 1 Radio2, 16.56 Kbps EEP
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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        --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Schiffhauer" <DK8OK@...> wrote:
        >
        > …with at least one exception Nico: on 26.065 kHz I can receive, short skip
        > conditions permitting, a 20 kHz wide DRM signal of RAI Radiodue with
        > following four channels:
        >
        > 1: Radiodue
        >
        > 2: Vatican
        >
        > 3: RV World Service
        >
        > 4: RV Journaline
        >
        ... today (2009-06-04 10a.m) on air, from Rome area :
        RAI 846 KHz, SantaPalomba, 30 Km south of Rome, 25 Kw,3 services
        (service 1 Radio2, 16.56 Kbps EEP AAC+ P-stereo
        service 2 Journaline , 0.16 kb/s,
        service 3 Isoradio aac mono 9.84 kbps +MM(0.16 kbps)

        VaticanRadio 1611 KHz Santa MariaDiGaleria, 10 Km north of Rome,25 Kw
        1 service , 15.32 kbps EEP AAC+ Mono
        ( Data taken by CIAOradio H101 + Dreamcode, downtown ,trivial antenna )
        I know joint RV/RAI 26.060 inside Vatican City ,near S.Peter ~ very low power ( maybe 200 w ) never heard

        Also some SW emission ,from VaticaRadio ,SantaMariaDiGaleria,Target North America, overnight.
        RAI Siziano , near Milan, on AM 693 KW ~ 25 Kw ( or 50 KW )

        Enjoy listen DRM from Italy ..

        Francesco
      • F1HDI
        Hi, Experimenting with VAC, I saw yesterday that the audio cable 1 (the first virtual audio cable of VAC) is hooked up without any applications running (in the
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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          Hi,

          Experimenting with VAC, I saw yesterday that the audio cable 1 (the first virtual audio cable of VAC) is hooked up without any applications running (in the setup panel the first cable is stating as 44100 8 . . .  .
          I have 4 virtual audio cables set, and only the first is showing this strange behavior, ... under Windows 7.

          I tested this on the same machine on the 'regular vista' partition and this is not the case , audio cable 1 is free .

          Well, I would love to have audio cable 0 free ... for use with Perseus !.



          Any though?

          Kind regards

          Jean-marc F1HDI


        • Leif Asbrink
          Hi All, ... You may use linrad.exe with your Perseus. Set it to SSB mode and select the appropriate bandwidth for DRM. Then place the BFO 12 kHz away from the
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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            Hi All,

            > we already had the discussion 8khz vs 12khz IF. I also used the
            > Fraunhofer software radio for decoding of DRM, which is now being
            > useless. But as long Nico consider the Fraunhofer software being
            > a "legacy software" we have to live with DREAM and an exotic IF
            > output of 8khz.

            You may use linrad.exe with your Perseus. Set it to SSB mode and
            select the appropriate bandwidth for DRM. Then place the BFO 12 kHz
            away from the passband center. The sampling speed for the output
            must be set high enough, presumably 48 kHz would be fine.

            I have tested DREAM while running Perseus/Linrad on one computer
            (under Windows) and DREAM on another computer under Linux. I see
            no reason why the Fraunhofer software would not work equally well.
            http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/usage/drm/loudsp_carrier.htm

            I guess it would be possible to run the Fraunhofer decoder with VAC
            in the same computer that runs Linrad.

            The latest version, Linrad-03.06, has a "newcomer mode" that is intended
            to make it easier to use for newcomers.

            73

            Leif / SM5BSZ
          • Nico iv3nwv
            ... Thank you for the information, Francesco. I was not aware of the option. I ve made a test right now and it works perfectly with the Perseus software when
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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              > Dream code accept I/Q complex 0 IF .
              > You have to tell dream at start.
              > dream -c 5 ( I/Q stereo 0 Hz )

              Thank you for the information, Francesco.
              I was not aware of the option.
              I've made a test right now and it works perfectly with the Perseus software when the USER demodulator button is selected.
              (as the USER demodulator already outputs zero-IF I/Q samples to the VAC).

              Nico
            • Nico iv3nwv
              ... Nice to know, Nils. You should be able to decode it using the option suggested by Francesco (Dream -c 5) and selecting the USER demod in the Perseus
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                Nils Schiffhauer" wrote:

                > …with at least one exception Nico: on 26.065 kHz I can receive,
                > short skip conditions permitting, a 20 kHz wide DRM signal of RAI
                > Radiodue with following four channels...

                Nice to know, Nils.
                You should be able to decode it using the option suggested by Francesco (Dream -c 5) and selecting the USER demod in the Perseus software (and a sufficient IF bandwidth of course).

                Regards,
                Nico / IV3NWV
              • Nico iv3nwv
                ... I don t consider the Fraunhofer software a legacy one, Lothar. I consider a legacy a software interface which needs a real valued data stream at some non
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                  Lothar wrote:

                  > But as long Nico consider the Fraunhofer software being a "legacy
                  > software"

                  I don't consider the Fraunhofer software a legacy one, Lothar.
                  I consider a legacy a software interface which needs a real valued data stream at some non zero IF frequency.
                  This is not required when the signal is digitally processed in a I/Q data format at zero IF.
                  Actually I need to translate the zero-IF signal at some non zero IF and transmit the real part to the VAC interface. The DRM decoder does the opposite translating the non zero-IF real signal to a complex zero-IF stream and then process it. Isn't this stupid in the digital era? Ok, it's not stupid. It's a legacy.

                  Now we have just learned from Francesco that the Dream software is also able to accept a complex zero-IF signal. You can use the Perseus software version you already have to test it as I described in my previous message.
                  Is the Fraunhofer software capable of the same? Does it accept zero-IF complex samples?

                  >we have to live with DREAM and an exotic IF output of 8khz.

                  I don't consider 8 kHz IF output more exotic than a 12 kHz output.
                  The Dream decoder is capable of syncing to ANY IF frequency (provided that the signal is not aliased) not just to 8 kHz.
                  I find this behaviour much more clever and flexible than accepting just a single IF frequency as the Fraunhofer decoder does.
                  Wouldn't it be worth asking the Fraunhofer developers if they plan to support either a more modern IQ zero-IF data format OR at least a decoder which is capable to tune to any allowable IF frequency as the Dream decoder already does?

                  73
                  Nico / IV3NWV
                • Nico iv3nwv
                  ... You are much more optimist than Murphy ;-) and neglect the deep impact of his second and fourth laws. See here for more: http://www.murphys-laws.com/ ...
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                    Horst wrote:

                    > - If you supported 12 instead of 8 kHz, ALL decoders would work, and not only one, Dream, so N would be 1 as well.

                    You are much more optimist than Murphy ;-) and neglect the deep
                    impact of his second and fourth laws.
                    See here for more:
                    http://www.murphys-laws.com/

                    > - 12 kHz has become a de facto standard for all programs that do IF
                    > post processing, and not only DRM decoding.
                    > 8 kHz is an uncommon IF frequency that is supported by Dream only.

                    Digital interfaces do not require that a signal is processed at some particular non zero IF. Also the RS-232 electrical interface was a de facto standard but its status did not prevented its obsolescence.
                    Dream supports ANY IF frequency (and as we have recently learned also a zero-IF complex signal).

                    > I bought the Fraunhofer software for my NRD 545, and when I bought
                    > the Perseus, I was absolutely sure I could still use it because of
                    > the high flexibility of the SDR concept. I am a bit disappointed
                    > because this software has become useless, and because 12 kHz seems
                    > to be doable without big problems, and because you categorically
                    > refuse to even think about this modification.
                    > I understand that DRM has not (yet) reached a high level of
                    > importance, and I could understand if you said you will do this
                    > with low priority, and not in the next software update. But your
                    > current message is, you won't do it at all, never.
                    > At that point, you sacrifice one of the major advantages of SDRs,
                    > their flexibility.

                    No. I'm not really and categorically refusing to think about this modification. I'm simply balancing my work load so that new software versions can come out at no cost for their users.
                    I've created a software developer toolkit so that it would be quite easy for everybody which has some experience with software programming and a minimum knowledge of digital signal processing to develop applications for the Perseus hardware (and even to sale if he wishes it so).
                    So far, the Perseus software has 1) a CAT interface which accepts a CI-V protocol to control it, 2) a VAC output which works at 31.25 kS/s so that any signal up to 25 kHz wide can be processed by third party software, and 3) a developer toolkit (available for free) which allows developers to create wide bandwidth applications up to 2 MS/s.
                    Other things I'm working to will come and still for free.
                    Flexibility requires the same efforts by all the involved parties, not just by me.

                    73
                    Nico / IV3NWV
                  • Nils Schiffhauer
                    …thanks, Francesco, and please excuse a rather dumb question: where in DREAM’s configuration menue doe I have to make this change? I simply didn’t find
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                      …thanks, Francesco, and please excuse a rather dumb question: where in DREAM’s configuration menue doe I have to make this change? I simply didn’t find the appropriate column … 73 Nils, DK8OK

                       

                      Von: perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com [mailto:perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von mrzfrn
                      Gesendet: Thursday, June 04, 2009 7:32 AM
                      An: perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com
                      Betreff: [perseus_SDR] Re: DRM Help!

                       




                      --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nico iv3nwv" <nicopal@...> wrote:

                      > Unfortunately DRM decoders were designed for (analog) radios with low-IF
                      (real valued, not complex) outputs

                      ... to my understanding not true as far as Dream code
                      Dream code accept I/Q complex 0 IF .
                      You have to tell dream at start.
                      dream -c 5 ( I/Q stereo 0 Hz )
                      while default is
                      dream -c 2 ( mono 12 KHz)
                      A lot of options are available, make the right choice.


                      Francesco

                    • Nils Schiffhauer
                      …well Francesco, RAI 846 kHz is easy to listen even in Germany, drop an ear to: http://is.gd/OQMw look on the right under “Mitschnitte” (German for
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                        …well Francesco, RAI 846 kHz is easy to listen even in Germany, drop an ear to:

                        http://is.gd/OQMw

                        look on the right under “Mitschnitte” (German for “clippings”), in alphabetically order, under RAI.

                        Under “Deutschlandfunk” you find a HVXC-coded transmission from Deutschlandfunk, coded with around 2,5 kbps, the lowest rate so far.

                        You can also click to Radio Vatican 1611 kHz, also an easy catch in Northern Germany (thanks God …)

                        73 Nils, DK8OK

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        Von: perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com [mailto:perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von mrzfrn
                        Gesendet: Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:05 AM
                        An: perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com
                        Betreff: [perseus_SDR] Re: DRM Help!

                         




                        --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Schiffhauer" <DK8OK@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > …with at least one exception Nico: on 26.065 kHz I can receive, short skip
                        > conditions permitting, a 20 kHz wide DRM signal of RAI Radiodue with
                        > following four channels:
                        >
                        > 1: Radiodue
                        >
                        > 2: Vatican
                        >
                        > 3: RV World Service
                        >
                        > 4: RV Journaline
                        >
                        ... today (2009-06-04 10a.m) on air, from Rome area :
                        RAI 846 KHz, SantaPalomba, 30 Km south of Rome, 25 Kw,3 services
                        (service 1 Radio2, 16.56 Kbps EEP AAC+ P-stereo
                        service 2 Journaline , 0.16 kb/s,
                        service 3 Isoradio aac mono 9.84 kbps +MM(0.16 kbps)

                        VaticanRadio 1611 KHz Santa MariaDiGaleria, 10 Km north of Rome,25 Kw
                        1 service , 15.32 kbps EEP AAC+ Mono
                        ( Data taken by CIAOradio H101 + Dreamcode, downtown ,trivial antenna )
                        I know joint RV/RAI 26.060 inside Vatican City ,near S.Peter ~ very low power ( maybe 200 w ) never heard

                        Also some SW emission ,from VaticaRadio ,SantaMariaDiGaleria,Target North America, overnight.
                        RAI Siziano , near Milan, on AM 693 KW ~ 25 Kw ( or 50 KW )

                        Enjoy listen DRM from Italy ..

                        Francesco

                      • drm_sender
                        Hello Guys, I followed your recent discussion and decided to develop a solution for it. If you need to run Perseus with a 12 kHz intermediate frequency (IF)
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 4, 2009
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                          Hello Guys,

                          I followed your recent discussion and decided to develop a solution for it.
                          If you need to run Perseus with a 12 kHz intermediate frequency (IF) output, use Ratemonkey with the new option:
                          -outifhz 12000

                          You can define an IF between -800 and 800 kHz.

                          Download Ratemonkey here:
                          http://www.drm-sender.de/?page=tools&lang=en

                          I could only test this option for a wave file input but it should work for Perseus as well (PLEASE TEST).
                          In the simplest mode, you can start Ratemonkey with 12 kHz IF by typing the following line in the console
                          ratemonkey.exe -indev perseus -inrate 500000 -outdev line -outrate 48000 -outifhz 12000

                          NOTE that you can also upmix and downmix a complex wave file signals with this option.

                          Regards,
                          Michael

                          --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nico iv3nwv" <nicopal@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > this was my idea, too, but it doesn't work. The audio output
                          > > sampling frequency of the Perseus is about 32kHz, therefore all
                          > > frequencies above 16kHz are cut in order to avoid aliasing. If you
                          > > mistune a DRM signal that way that the center is at 12 kHz, the
                          > > max. frequency of the DRM spectrum will be 17 kHz. However, all
                          > > frequencies above 16 kHz are filtered out, so decoding is not
                          > > possible.
                          >
                          > That's almost right, Horst.
                          > The Perseus audio output sampling frequency is 31.25 kHz, not 32, so far even a slightly larger portion if the DRM signal would be aliased (not really filtered) back into the first Nyquist zone.
                          >
                          >
                          > > I assume that the entire DSP portion of the Perseus FPGA is based
                          > > on this 32 kHz sampling frequency, and changing it would require a
                          > > major redesign of the FPGA code.
                          >
                          > No. It's not matter of the DSP made in the FPGA. The DDC core of Perseus outputs the IQ samples at no less than 125 kS/s and this would be sufficient for the software to generate a (real) IF signal up to 50 kHz or so.
                          > By the way a DRM signal spectrum is 10 kHz wide so mere a 10 kS/s (complex) sampling would be sufficient to decode it properly, not more.
                          > Unfortunately DRM decoders were designed for (analog) radios with low-IF (real valued, not complex) outputs and this required that unnecessary higher sampling frequencies were used.
                          >
                          > >Maybe this is why Nico doesn't want to change it... and maybe
                          > >performance aspects might play a role, too.
                          >
                          > No. The simple reason is that supporting N DRM decoders, with N>1, requires more time, tests and efforts than supporting just one of them.
                          >
                          > 73,
                          > Nico / IV3NWV
                          >
                        • mrzfrn
                          ... ..no menu choice !.. parameters at start.. dream [option] [argument] there are several of them and several defaults so C: Dream-1.11bcvs dream.exe (==
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 5, 2009
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                            --- In perseus_SDR@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Schiffhauer" <DK8OK@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > …thanks, Francesco, and please excuse a rather dumb question: where in
                            > DREAM's configuration menue doe I have to make this change? I simply didn't
                            > find the appropriate column … 73 Nils, DK8OK
                            >
                            ..no menu choice !.. parameters at start..

                            dream [option] [argument]
                            there are several of them and several defaults
                            so
                            C:\Dream-1.11bcvs\dream.exe (== dream.exe -c 2 (mono 12KHz ))
                            or
                            ...dream.exe -c 5 (I/Q 0 Hz )
                            On Linux of course just
                            ./dream -c 5

                            Quite interesting option for "beginners"
                            dream.exe -f DRMfile.wav
                            to decode registered drm files ,no receiver
                            Dream can use 'hamlib' and set frequency of receiver
                            via hamlib ( not tested by me)

                            Great program , I must say ! But ..
                            unfortunately, apparently, no one is working at.. and
                            as consequence ... Dream is in danger !

                            Last dev version 1.11b ( 26 may 2009)
                            http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/
                            (Fixes problems with Visual Studio, No new features, no bug fixes)
                            Linux Fedora10 binary and sources
                            http://www.logocomune.eu/dokuwi/doku.php?id=linux:dream_fedora_10_eng
                            http://www.logocomune.eu/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=linux:dream_rpms
                            http://www.logocomune.eu/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=linux:dream_srpms

                            Francesco
                          • Nico iv3nwv
                            ... Nils, right click the Dream icon to open the application properties dialog. Then click the Link tab and add the option you prefer to the Destination
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 5, 2009
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                              > where in DREAM's configuration menue doe I have to make this
                              > change? I simply didn't find the appropriate column

                              Nils,
                              right click the Dream icon to open the application properties dialog.
                              Then click the "Link" tab and add the option you prefer to the "Destination" field, i.e. "C:\Programs\Dream\dream.exe -c 5".

                              Nico
                            • Stephan Schaa
                              Or start dream with a double click on the receive_iq.bat file which is located in the Dream folder. It starts Dream as Standard with the c 5 option. But its
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 5, 2009
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                                Or start dream with a double click on the receive_iq.bat file which is located in the Dream folder. It starts Dream as Standard with the c 5 option.
                                 
                                But its maybe useful to edit the bat first, because at standard it always deletes old log files. (rightclick the bat file, edit and delete both middle lines)
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                Stephan
                                 
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