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Re: [PBML] I know this 2...

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  • Ingenue
    What does money have to do with anything? Unix systems are free if they re under the BSD or GPL/GNU license, like the ones mentioned below. Perl was made for
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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      What does money have to do with anything? Unix systems are free if they're
      under the BSD or GPL/GNU license, like the ones mentioned below. Perl was
      made for Unix. It was made for the purpose of Unix administration. It even
      comes packaged with releases. If you can't install the WinNT binary on an
      NT system, then something is drastically wrong.

      For personal opinion... the entire movement of Perl is going down the drain
      thanks to the Windows platform. Active State's Perl distrobution will be
      included with the next release of Microsoft Visual Studio in the form of
      "Visual Perl" (as well as "Visual Python"). This is a disgrace to the Perl
      movement not only because it goes against the GNU license that perl is
      licenced under, but it will spark a proprietary movement which deviates from
      the standards (like Microsoft always does) and will tear the langauge apart
      (like microsoft did with every other language). Perl isn't meant for GUI in
      the first place since it's a langauge for Unix Administration (and some
      handy handling of apache mods).

      So Alberto, you can wait a few months and pay.. $600 for a free language and
      continue to be a supporter of Microsoft.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Alberto.·.Vallini" <vallini@...>
      To: <perl-beginner@egroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:22 AM
      Subject: [PBML] I know this 2...


      Dear friends I appreciate your observation but now I have a big problem: i
      WANT
      to learn PERL and it is 3 months that I'm stuck as I cannot find a way to
      run
      an interpreter and debug my first humble script. telling me to change
      win2000
      is not of much help as now I have this and I'm not a millionaire (like Gates
      yeah ok)!
      Help!


      >Hey Albert-o,
      >I know you don't want to hear this but...why are you using 2000? Ever
      heard
      >of Linux? FreeBSD? Heck, perl even works fine on my iMac. Microsoft is
      >evil my friend. Stay away.
      > joseph
      >
      >P.S. Perl works fine on my NT 4.0 machine at work.
      >


      "when everything else fails, sleep"
      Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      from any PC, Palm, phone, internet appliance! OPEN A FREE ACCOUNT NOW.
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    • "Alberto.·.Vallini"
      Seems that looking for help is always the wrong approach. When first I bought a computer 4 years ago I knew nothing about it , nothing about the net, nothing
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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        Seems that looking for help is always the wrong approach. When first I
        bought a computer 4 years ago I knew nothing about it , nothing about the
        net, nothing about html, nothing about javascript, NOTHING about
        programming. I had to do all by myself and now I see that I will have to go
        on doing completely alone and working out the solutions on my self.
        I asked for help, the only thing I get is a crusade against Bill Gates.
        Bha, thank you anyway, not that I did not appreciate the attempt: simply,
        it was focused on your concerns, not on a beginner's ones attempting to do
        his best to get started with this wonderful new (for me) language.
        thanks anyway



        >So Alberto, you can wait a few months and pay.. $600 for a free language and
        >continue to be a supporter of Microsoft.


        "when everything else fails, sleep"
        Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...
      • Greg Webster
        To all involved... This list is intended as a beginners Perl area, not a place to squabble about operating system superiority, Microsoft, etc. Now personally,
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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          To all involved...

          This list is intended as a beginners Perl area, not a place to squabble about
          operating system superiority, Microsoft, etc.

          Now personally, I'm much more comfortable in a Unix environment, but if someone
          wants to learn Perl, don't try to force them to use some variant of Unix as
          well. That's what diversity is all about...and that's why things like Linux may
          succeed in being "another choice" versus the Microsoft monopoly.

          Now...to get back to this situation and Perl. Obviously this person is having a
          problem use ActivePerl or getting it installed. I can't see a better place for
          this to be discussed than on a list titled "Perl Beginners Mailing List". I
          can't help, being that I have never installed ActivePerl, but maybe someone
          else here could step in.

          In the event that the installation is beyond the scope of what we can offer by
          email, this person should contact the manufacturers directly. This situation
          may already be reached, so I urge taking that step.

          Being who I am I prefer to allow things to work themselves out, but if it comes
          down to anyone thinking that this list is not intended for beginners, I'll wipe
          the subscribers list and start again.

          Greg Webster
          List Owner


          On Thu, 01 Jun 2000, you wrote:
          > Seems that looking for help is always the wrong approach. When first I
          > bought a computer 4 years ago I knew nothing about it , nothing about the
          > net, nothing about html, nothing about javascript, NOTHING about
          > programming. I had to do all by myself and now I see that I will have to go
          > on doing completely alone and working out the solutions on my self.
          > I asked for help, the only thing I get is a crusade against Bill Gates.
          > Bha, thank you anyway, not that I did not appreciate the attempt: simply,
          > it was focused on your concerns, not on a beginner's ones attempting to do
          > his best to get started with this wonderful new (for me) language.
          > thanks anyway
          >
          >
          >
          > >So Alberto, you can wait a few months and pay.. $600 for a free language and
          > >continue to be a supporter of Microsoft.
          >
          >
          > "when everything else fails, sleep"
          > Alberto.�.Vallini - vallini@...
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Take your development to new heights. Work with clients like Dell and
          > pcOrder. Submit your resume to jobs@.... Visit us at
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/4358/2/_/12898/_/959906628/
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          --
          <>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<>
          / \ GREG WEBSTER - greg@... / \/ \/ \
          \ / http://www.geekrights.org \ /\ /\ /
          <>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<><>-<>
        • "Alberto.·.Vallini"
          Thank you Greg! Seems that you got the point. Programming is not a matter of operative system (unless we claim seriously that since we dislike Microsoft, then
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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            Thank you Greg!
            Seems that you got the point. Programming is not a matter of operative
            system (unless we claim seriously that since we dislike Microsoft, then
            we'd suggest to ignore windows based platform issues and that it is a cool
            piece of advice- a stand I would not be so willing to sign).

            I came out from a classical europen education, classic schools, and a
            mindset not inclined to Mathematics. You can imagine how hard was for me
            when, all alone, I stepped into html (not a difficult thing, but I can
            proudly say that I now master html to the level of the best html designers
            out there, and I did it all alone. Not just scribbling down a couple of
            lines you see) and then in JavaScript having to grasp things like events,
            objects, methods, loops, conditional statements and all the paraphernalia
            without having the background for it. I did it in the time-honoured old
            fashioned way: notepad, IE and NN on the taskbar, debugging every day,
            staying awake until daybreak, finding myself without the solution at 6am...
            this is why i put in the footer my motto "when everything else fails,
            sleep": I think any programmer can get the hint.

            Programming is a matter of love. Now I wish as hell to learn Perl, I need
            it because I can do nothing on the server side, I feel very ignorant and
            eager to learn. I'm ready, at 34, to spend other months awake before the
            keyboard getting crazy until 6am to debug my first scripts, to learn it all
            painstakingly. It is fine to me.

            I also appreciate the input about Linux, I will soon install it on my Pc:
            i've not been deaf to the suggestions. None the less, I would never
            subscribe the statement accordingly to which since we don't like Microsoft
            we have to ignore problems related to windows platform: that wouldn't be
            worth of a responsible programmer, and would not be user friendly. The
            market is the market, and we can't ignore its reality simply beacuse we
            don't like it (even if we were right).

            If any of you have an idea how I can get started with a program to debug on
            Win2000 Italian version I'd appreciate it.
            I reported in my previous email the message error i get while the Active
            installer says "relocating Perl":

            internal error 2744. PL_IISMAP, C:\perl\bin\, "C:\perl\bin\wperl.exe"
            "C:\perl\bin\IIScriptMap.pl" 1 "" .pl "C:\perl\bin\perl.exe %s %s" 4
            "GET,HEAD,POST"

            I have, anyway, some perl.exe that I can launch and type in it but if I
            type, for instance
            print "hello world"; and press enter nothing happen (I think obviously). I
            wish I could see my first <>, I have no idea how it looks like. Like a
            prompt() in JavaScript??

            The books I have are good, but none of them, camels, Black Books, Lemay,
            seems enough to make me getting started. I think this reveal some problem
            with most of the books: they all seem unable to really deal with the
            problems of the real beginner (not so naif anyway as still has a JavaScript
            solid background, so it is really frustrating to be unable to get started).
            I am confident someone out there, among so many subscribers, can know the
            right hint. I add anyway that I appreciated the things said so far, despite
            not focused on the signaled problem. At least, I realized that there are
            tons of free ware open source OS out there.
            I try to do my best, I have neither simpaty nor antipaty for Microsoft.
            having an html and JavaScript background, I am inclined on this operative
            system simply beacuse IE4 and IE5 are so outstanding when compared to the
            cuncurrence you see.
            Thank you



            >To all involved...
            >
            >This list is intended as a beginners Perl area, not a place to squabble about
            >operating system superiority, Microsoft, etc.
            >
            >Now personally, I'm much more comfortable in a Unix environment, but if
            >someone
            >wants to learn Perl, don't try to force them to use some variant of Unix as
            >well. That's what diversity is all about...and that's why things like
            >Linux may
            >succeed in being "another choice" versus the Microsoft monopoly.
            >
            >Now...to get back to this situation and Perl. Obviously this person is
            >having a
            >problem use ActivePerl or getting it installed. I can't see a better place for
            >this to be discussed than on a list titled "Perl Beginners Mailing List". I
            >can't help, being that I have never installed ActivePerl, but maybe someone
            >else here could step in.
            >
            >In the event that the installation is beyond the scope of what we can offer by
            >email, this person should contact the manufacturers directly. This situation
            >may already be reached, so I urge taking that step.
            >
            >Being who I am I prefer to allow things to work themselves out, but if it
            >comes
            >down to anyone thinking that this list is not intended for beginners, I'll
            >wipe
            >the subscribers list and start again.
            >
            >Greg Webster
            >List Owner


            "when everything else fails, sleep"
            Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...
          • Christopher M. Garman
            If you re looking for server side stuff you might also want to consider ASP(Active Server Pages). Supposedly this is built into Windoze2000 and is based on
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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              If you're looking for server side stuff you might also want to consider
              ASP(Active Server Pages). Supposedly this is built into Windoze2000 and is
              based on either JavaScript or a scripting form of Visual Basic. I've done
              very little with it, but I heard about it and it seems to be interesting.
              It is a M$ thing so they should have some documentation on it. You have to
              make sure your server actually supports it if you plan to use it though. I
              agree with the others that we should ignore platform issues(even though if
              you note my sig, you can see my opinions). I agree with what Alberto is
              doing, the best way to learn is on your own, get a couple books, work
              through them and experiment.

              --On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 5:41 AM +0200 "\"Alberto.·.Vallini\""
              <vallini@...> wrote:r
              > server side, I feel very ignorant and
              > eager to learn. I'm ready, at 34, to spend other months awake before the
              > keyboard getting crazy until 6am to debug my first scripts, to learn it
              > all painstakingly. It is fine to me.



              A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without
              bricks tied to its head.
            • "Alberto.·.Vallini"
              Thank you, I still considered ASP and I decided, despite my ignorance, that the right choice was to choose PERL. I hope I did it right. Now, if I only could
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 1, 2000
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                Thank you, I still considered ASP and I decided, despite my ignorance, that
                the right choice was to choose PERL. I hope I did it right.
                Now, if I only could get started with a debuggin environment.... *sigh*

                >If you're looking for server side stuff you might also want to consider
                >ASP(Active Server Pages). Supposedly this is built into Windoze2000 and is
                >based on either JavaScript or a scripting form of Visual Basic. I've done
                >very little with it, but I heard about it and it seems to be interesting.
                >It is a M$ thing so they should have some documentation on it. You have to
                >make sure your server actually supports it if you plan to use it though. I
                >agree with the others that we should ignore platform issues(even though if
                >you note my sig, you can see my opinions). I agree with what Alberto is
                >doing, the best way to learn is on your own, get a couple books, work
                >through them and experiment.


                "when everything else fails, sleep"
                Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...
              • Andy Dougherty
                If you have a perl.exe around, you can probably at least do some things. However, since the installer aborted, things that rely on other parts of the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 2, 2000
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                  If you have a perl.exe around, you can probably at least do some things.
                  However, since the installer aborted, things that rely on other parts of
                  the installation (like libraries or documentation!) might not work.

                  Nevertheless, if you have a perl.exe file, you can probably at least do
                  some beginning work.

                  The first thing to realize is that you don't have a single integrated
                  editing/compiling/debugging/running environment. Instead, what you
                  typically do is use a text editor (Notepad is probably fine, though I
                  don't really know much about Windows text editors) to write the program
                  to a file and then in a separate window you use perl.exe to run that
                  program.

                  Try this: Use Notepad to create a file "hello.plx" containing just the
                  following two lines:

                  #!/usr/bin/perl -w
                  print "Hello, world.\n";

                  Save the file to disk.

                  Next, in a separate DOS window (or Command Window or whatever they call it
                  that gets you the C: prompt), type

                  perl hello.plx

                  You should see a single line of output

                  Hello, world.

                  (Obviously this will only work if perl.exe is in your PATH.)

                  This should get you started.

                  Hope this helps,

                  Andy Dougherty doughera@...
                  Dept. of Physics
                  Lafayette College, Easton PA 18042
                • Tom Barron
                  Hi, Alberto. ... Perhaps one thing you re missing is that perl reads the whole file and compiles it before executing any of the commands in it. I think if
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 2, 2000
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                    Hi, Alberto.

                    "Alberto.7.Vallini" wrote:
                    > ...
                    > I have, anyway, some perl.exe that I can launch and type in it but if I
                    > type, for instance
                    > print "hello world"; and press enter nothing happen (I think obviously). I

                    Perhaps one thing you're missing is that perl reads the whole file and
                    "compiles" it before executing any of the commands in it. I think if
                    you did what you describe above and, after hitting enter, type ^Z
                    (control-Z), you'll see your script run.

                    Andy described well how to save a script in a file and run it, so I
                    won't go through that. However, another thing that might be interesting
                    for you to try is this:

                    C:>perl -de 3

                    This will start up perl and put you in the debugger. Typing "h" in the
                    debugger will get a help display. The specific number on the command
                    line is not important. Perl just wants a script to start with and the
                    "e 3" accomplishes that (the e option tells perl to evaluate the next
                    thing on the command line as a script). The "-d" tells the perl
                    executable to start the debugger.

                    hth...
                    Tom
                  • Ankur Agarwal
                    Hi Alberto, I can very well understand your problem. I am myself a beginner in perl. Thanks to this list, I got my first program running on the very first day
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 4, 2000
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                      Hi Alberto,
                          I can very well understand your problem. I am myself a beginner in perl. Thanks to this list, I got my first program running on the very first day of my posting it here. But I had spent almost a week figuring out how to get my program running, before that.
                       
                      Well, I can suggest you a temporary solution. (I set out with it as a temporary solution, but now it is with me permanently.) I downloaded Perl Builder from www.solutionsoft.com . All you have to do is to type in your code and press the start button. And lo...your program works fine without any configuration. It has a very good debugger too. (Maybe I was lucky enough to have all my active perl files in the right directories!)
                       
                      Hope this helps.
                      Ankur.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:42 PM
                      Subject: [PBML] I know this 2...

                      Dear friends I appreciate your observation but now I have a big problem: i WANT
                      to learn PERL and it is 3 months that I'm stuck as I cannot find a way to run
                      an interpreter and debug my first humble script. telling me to change win2000
                      is not of much help as now I have this and I'm not a millionaire (like Gates
                      yeah ok)!
                      Help!


                      >Hey Albert-o,
                      >I know you don't want to hear this but...why are you using 2000?  Ever heard
                      >of Linux?  FreeBSD?  Heck, perl even works fine on my iMac.  Microsoft is
                      >evil my friend.  Stay away.
                      >      joseph
                      >
                      >P.S.  Perl works fine on my NT 4.0 machine at work.
                      >


                      "when everything else fails, sleep"
                      Alberto.·.Vallini  - vallini@...


                    • "Alberto.·.Vallini"
                      Thank you, the problem is that I cannot install activePerl, they told me at activestate they are aware of this bug when installing on win2000 and will be fixed
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 4, 2000
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                        Thank you, the problem is that I cannot install activePerl, they told me at
                        activestate they are aware of this bug when installing on win2000 and will
                        be fixed with the next release... in the meanwhile I am always here waiting
                        to be able to finally start debuggin my first scripts... :(
                        Is that program shareware, namely stop functioning after the 14 days?
                        Thank you for the hint but so far seems that i'm stuck to, say, "forced
                        ignorance".
                        This reveals how much we'd need an IDE for Perl that could be simple and
                        ready without all this hassle: these problem may be a windows issue, but in
                        any case harm the perl community: after all a standard becomes a standard
                        because more and more people get involved in it. We still have problems, it
                        seems, in getting willing people get *really* started with Perl. Too
                        strange we cannot have sort of a "straightforward" program: maybe I'm naif:
                        just click and get it..... "building dynamic HTML GUIs"...
                        bye!

                        >Hi Alberto,
                        > I can very well understand your problem. I am myself a beginner in
                        > perl. Thanks to this list, I got my first program running on the very
                        > first day of my posting it here. But I had spent almost a week figuring
                        > out how to get my program running, before that.
                        >
                        >Well, I can suggest you a temporary solution. (I set out with it as a
                        >temporary solution, but now it is with me permanently.) I downloaded Perl
                        >Builder from <http://www.solutionsoft.com>www.solutionsoft.com . All you
                        >have to do is to type in your code and press the start button. And
                        >lo...your program works fine without any configuration. It has a very good
                        >debugger too. (Maybe I was lucky enough to have all my active perl files
                        >in the right directories!)
                        >
                        >Hope this helps.
                        >Ankur.


                        "when everything else fails, sleep"
                        Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...
                      • "Alberto.·.Vallini"
                        Well, in the meanwhile I wait for the next fixed version ov the activePerl for win2000, one thing I have not clear (I know it is a one penny question, but this
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 4, 2000
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                          Well, in the meanwhile I wait for the next fixed version ov the activePerl
                          for win2000, one thing I have not clear (I know it is a one penny question,
                          but this is why i joined a beginners' list):
                          the method
                          print
                          is meant to always hold parehtesis like JavaScript methods.
                          I see most of the time they don't use them on perl,
                          print $myVar;

                          Question is: could I get the habit to always use the brackets, it would fit
                          my habits with javaScript you see:
                          print($myVar);

                          correct? Or I'm going to meet troubles if I get this habit?

                          thank you very much

                          "when everything else fails, sleep"
                          Alberto.·.Vallini - vallini@...
                        • Ankur Agarwal
                          I am sorry, I forgot to mention, I am also using win 2000 pro. And I had no problem installing Active Perl. Yes, the Perl Builder is a shareware. It expires
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 4, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I am sorry, I forgot to mention, I am also using win 2000 pro. And I had no problem installing Active Perl.
                             
                            Yes, the Perl Builder is a shareware. It expires after 14 days.
                             
                            Ankur.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:35 PM
                            Subject: [PBML] I know this 2...

                            Thank you, the problem is that I cannot install activePerl, they told me at
                            activestate they are aware of this bug when installing on win2000 and will
                            be fixed with the next release... in the meanwhile I am always here waiting
                            to be able to finally start debuggin my first scripts... :(
                            Is that program shareware, namely stop functioning after the 14 days?
                            Thank you for the hint but so far seems that i'm stuck to, say, "forced
                            ignorance".
                            This reveals how much we'd need an IDE for Perl that could be simple and
                            ready without all this hassle: these problem may be a windows issue, but in
                            any case harm the perl community: after all a standard becomes a standard
                            because more and more people get involved in it. We still have problems, it
                            seems, in getting willing people get *really* started with Perl. Too
                            strange we cannot have sort of a "straightforward" program: maybe I'm naif:
                            just click and get it..... "building dynamic HTML GUIs"...
                            bye!

                            >Hi Alberto,
                            >     I can very well understand your problem. I am myself a beginner in
                            > perl. Thanks to this list, I got my first program running on the very
                            > first day of my posting it here. But I had spent almost a week figuring
                            > out how to get my program running, before that.
                            >
                            >Well, I can suggest you a temporary solution. (I set out with it as a
                            >temporary solution, but now it is with me permanently.) I downloaded Perl
                            >Builder from <http://www.solutionsoft.com>www.solutionsoft.com . All you
                            >have to do is to type in your code and press the start button. And
                            >lo...your program works fine without any configuration. It has a very good
                            >debugger too. (Maybe I was lucky enough to have all my active perl files
                            >in the right directories!)
                            >
                            >Hope this helps.
                            >Ankur.


                            "when everything else fails, sleep"
                            Alberto.·.Vallini  - vallini@...



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