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Re: Flags -- Merchant Ships in the Diary Period

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  • Michael Robinson
    Smith s classification for non-naval vessels appears to lack precision for our, the Diary, period. Charles I Proclamation of 5th. May 1634 specifically
    Message 1 of 14 , May 11, 2007
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      Smith's classification for non-naval vessels appears to lack precision
      for our, the Diary, period.

      Charles I Proclamation of 5th. May 1634 specifically forbids ANY use
      of the
      Union Flag by non-Royal vessels:-

      "... prohibit and forbid that none of Our Subjects of any of our
      Nations or Kingdoms shall from henceforth presume to carry the Union
      Flag in the Main top or any other part of their Ship ... upon pain of
      Our high displeasure but that the same Union Flag be still reserved as
      an ornament proper for Our own Ships, and Ships in our immediate
      Service and Pay, and none other."

      And specifies the flags to be used by other ships:-

      ... And likewise our further will and pleasure that all the other
      Ships of our subjects of England or South Britain bearing flags shall
      from henceforth carry the Red-Cross commonly called St George his
      Cross as of old time has been used; and also that all other ships of
      our subjects of Scotland or North Britain as shall henceforth carry
      the White Cross commonly called S. Andrew's Cross, whereby the several
      shipping may be distinguished ..."

      [Proclamations. 1634-05-05 By the King. A proclamation appointing
      the flags, as well for our nauie royall, as for the ships of our
      subiects of south and north Britaine. Variant title By the King. A
      proclamation appointing the flags, aswell for our navie royall, as for
      the ships of our subjects of south and north Britaine
      Imprinted at London : by Robert Barker, printer to the Kings most
      excellent Maiestie: and by the assignes of Iohn Bill, 1634.
      Physical descr. [1] sheet ([1] p.) ; 1⁰.
      Dated at end: Greenewich, this fifth day of May, in the tenth yeere of
      our reigne ... .
      STC (2nd ed.), 9014 Steele, 1674]


      Authorization of the use of a red ensign by merchant ships dates from
      a Proclamation of Charles II of 18 September 1674:-

      [By the King. A proclamation for regulating the colours to be worn on
      merchants ships. Variant title Proclamation for regulating the
      colours to be worn on merchants ships
      London : printed by the assigns of John Bill and Christopher Barker,
      printers to the Kings most Excellent Majesty, 1674.
      Physical descr. 2 sheets (versos blank) ; 1⁰.
      At end of text: Given at our court at Whitehall the eighteenth day
      of September 1674. in the six and twentieth year of our reign.
      Wing (CD-ROM, 1996), C3414]




      --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > ** High Priority **
      >
      > More flag information about merchant and RN ships:
      >
      > "Maritime Flag History
      >
      > According to Whitney Smith's book on flags, merchant ships from
      1606-1634 flew the Union Jack (minus the cross of St Patrick of
      course) on the foremast and the flag of England (Cross of St George)
      on the jack staff. He gives four possible positions for flags, going
      from fore to aft on the ship they are: jack staff, foremast, mainmast,
      ensign staff.
      >
      > * Before 1606 they flew the flag of England from both the
      foremast and the jack staff.
      > * From 1634-1707 they flew the flag of England from the jack
      staff and a version of the Red Ensign (with the cross of St. George in
      the canton instead of the entire Union Jack) from the ensign staff.
      > * From 1707-1801 they flew the flag of England from the jack
      staff and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff.
      > * From 1801 onward they flew the Union Jack with a white border
      from the foremast and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff. "
      > from this website:
      > http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-hist.html#hist
      >
      >
      > Australian Susan
      >
      > >>> terry.foreman@... 12/05/2007 1:14:50 am >>>
      > Nice clarification.
      >
      > Also interesting ongoing 17c flag history, proclamation of C II that
      > governed flagging in Pepys's day.
      >
      > At 10:07 AM 5/11/2007 +0000, you wrote:
      > >In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and
      > >Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ...
      > >
      > >The exact design that accompanied this has been lost. Several designs
      > >are known to have been considered including quartering the flags of
      > >England and Scotland (as the Royal Standard is quartered) and putting
      > >the two side-by-side, but the chosen design was: ...
      > >
      > >[Alas, text of proclamation of April 12th. 1606 and flag design will
      > >not paste, see:-]
      > >
      > >http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >--- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Robinson"
      > ><robinsonrepepys@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
      > > > Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
      > > > of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
      > > > that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
      > > > 1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98
      > > >
      > > > I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
      > > > flag(s) of the Royal Navy?
      > > >
      > > > Michael Robinson
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > ** High Priority **
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
      > > > about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea
      - yet
      > > > the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the
      opposite
      > > > - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
      > > > with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
      > > > all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
      > > > somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
      > > > to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
      > > > what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
      > > > in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
      > > > dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
      > > > >
      > > > > Susan Thomas
      > > > > for
      > > > > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
      > > > >
      > > > > (07) 3378 7344
      > > > > 0411 094 688
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
      > > > > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
      > > > >
      > > > > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
      > > > >
      > > > > Terry F
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
      > > > > >** High Priority **
      > > > > >
      > > > > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
      > > > celebrations).
      > > > > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
      > > > Flag is
      > > > > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
      > > > Fleet
      > > > > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not
      > >added
      > > > > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
      > > > the Flag
      > > > > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
      > > > of St
      > > > > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN
      > >ships do
      > > > > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the
      > >first two
      > > > > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on
      shipping
      > > > until
      > > > > >the 18th century.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Susan Thomas
      > > > > >for
      > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
      > > > > >0411 094 688
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
      > > > > >Email them!
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Terry
      > > > > >
      > > > > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
      > > > > > >** High Priority **
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
      > > > one quibble
      > > > > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag
      showing the
      > > > > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
      > > > until after
      > > > > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
      > > > > > >Australian Susan
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >Susan Thomas
      > > > > > >for
      > > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
      > > > > > >0411 094 688
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
      > > > and click on
      > > > > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th
      century
      > > > English
      > > > > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > A Second Founding
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > By Michael E. Ruane
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will
      sail
      > > > the mighty
      > > > > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > To view the entire article, go to
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050

      > > >
      > > > > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050

      > > >
      > > > > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >Terry F
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
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