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Re: [pepysdiary] Jamestown 1607-: The first permanent English colony in the new world

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  • Terry Foreman
    This is more period-accurate for what ships flew: http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm Terry F
    Message 1 of 14 , May 10, 2007
      This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:

      http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm

      Terry F


      At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
      >** High Priority **
      >
      >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the celebrations).
      >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union Flag is
      >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First Fleet
      >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not added
      >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew the Flag
      >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag of St
      >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN ships do
      >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the first two
      >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping until
      >the 18th century.
      >
      >Susan Thomas
      >for
      >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
      >
      >(07) 3378 7344
      >0411 094 688
      >
      >
      > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
      >Email them!
      >
      >Terry
      >
      >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
      > >** High Priority **
      > >
      > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only one quibble
      > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
      > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use until after
      > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
      > >Australian Susan
      > >
      > >Susan Thomas
      > >for
      > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
      > >
      > >(07) 3378 7344
      > >0411 094 688
      > >
      > >
      > > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
      > >
      > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article and click on
      > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century English
      > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
      > >
      > > A Second Founding
      > >
      > > By Michael E. Ruane
      > >
      > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail the mighty
      > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
      > >
      > > To view the entire article, go to
      > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050
      > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
      > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050
      > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Terry F
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Susan Thomas
      ** High Priority ** Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet the
      Message 2 of 14 , May 10, 2007
        ** High Priority **

        Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the opposite - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.

        Susan Thomas
        for
        Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.

        (07) 3378 7344
        0411 094 688


        >>> terry.foreman@... 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
        This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:

        http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm

        Terry F


        At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
        >** High Priority **
        >
        >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the celebrations).
        >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union Flag is
        >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First Fleet
        >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not added
        >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew the Flag
        >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag of St
        >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN ships do
        >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the first two
        >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping until
        >the 18th century.
        >
        >Susan Thomas
        >for
        >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
        >
        >(07) 3378 7344
        >0411 094 688
        >
        >
        > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
        >Email them!
        >
        >Terry
        >
        >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
        > >** High Priority **
        > >
        > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only one quibble
        > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
        > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use until after
        > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
        > >Australian Susan
        > >
        > >Susan Thomas
        > >for
        > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
        > >
        > >(07) 3378 7344
        > >0411 094 688
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
        > >
        > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article and click on
        > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century English
        > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
        > >
        > > A Second Founding
        > >
        > > By Michael E. Ruane
        > >
        > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail the mighty
        > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
        > >
        > > To view the entire article, go to
        > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050
        > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
        > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050
        > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Terry F
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Michael Robinson
        The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport a sort of sailor of fortune
        Message 3 of 14 , May 11, 2007
          The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
          Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
          of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
          that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
          1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98

          I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
          flag(s) of the Royal Navy?

          Michael Robinson






          --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > ** High Priority **
          >
          > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
          about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet
          the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the opposite
          - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
          with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
          all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
          somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
          to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
          what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
          in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
          dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
          >
          > Susan Thomas
          > for
          > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
          >
          > (07) 3378 7344
          > 0411 094 688
          >
          >
          > >>> terry.foreman@... 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
          > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
          >
          > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
          >
          > Terry F
          >
          >
          > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
          > >** High Priority **
          > >
          > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
          celebrations).
          > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
          Flag is
          > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
          Fleet
          > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not added
          > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
          the Flag
          > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
          of St
          > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN ships do
          > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the first two
          > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping
          until
          > >the 18th century.
          > >
          > >Susan Thomas
          > >for
          > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
          > >
          > >(07) 3378 7344
          > >0411 094 688
          > >
          > >
          > > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
          > >Email them!
          > >
          > >Terry
          > >
          > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
          > > >** High Priority **
          > > >
          > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
          one quibble
          > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
          > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
          until after
          > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
          > > >Australian Susan
          > > >
          > > >Susan Thomas
          > > >for
          > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
          > > >
          > > >(07) 3378 7344
          > > >0411 094 688
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >>> terry.foreman@... 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
          > > >
          > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
          and click on
          > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century
          English
          > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
          > > >
          > > > A Second Founding
          > > >
          > > > By Michael E. Ruane
          > > >
          > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail
          the mighty
          > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
          > > >
          > > > To view the entire article, go to
          > >
          >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050

          > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
          > >
          >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050

          > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >Terry F
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Michael Robinson
          In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ... The exact design that
          Message 4 of 14 , May 11, 2007
            In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and
            Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ...

            The exact design that accompanied this has been lost. Several designs
            are known to have been considered including quartering the flags of
            England and Scotland (as the Royal Standard is quartered) and putting
            the two side-by-side, but the chosen design was: ...

            [Alas, text of proclamation of April 12th. 1606 and flag design will
            not paste, see:-]

            http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7




            --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Robinson"
            <robinsonrepepys@...> wrote:
            >
            > The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
            > Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
            > of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
            > that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
            > 1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98
            >
            > I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
            > flag(s) of the Royal Navy?
            >
            > Michael Robinson
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > ** High Priority **
            > >
            > > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
            > about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet
            > the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the opposite
            > - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
            > with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
            > all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
            > somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
            > to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
            > what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
            > in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
            > dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
            > >
            > > Susan Thomas
            > > for
            > > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
            > >
            > > (07) 3378 7344
            > > 0411 094 688
            > >
            > >
            > > >>> terry.foreman@ 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
            > > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
            > >
            > > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
            > >
            > > Terry F
            > >
            > >
            > > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
            > > >** High Priority **
            > > >
            > > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
            > celebrations).
            > > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
            > Flag is
            > > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
            > Fleet
            > > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not
            added
            > > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
            > the Flag
            > > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
            > of St
            > > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN
            ships do
            > > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the
            first two
            > > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping
            > until
            > > >the 18th century.
            > > >
            > > >Susan Thomas
            > > >for
            > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
            > > >
            > > >(07) 3378 7344
            > > >0411 094 688
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
            > > >Email them!
            > > >
            > > >Terry
            > > >
            > > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
            > > > >** High Priority **
            > > > >
            > > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
            > one quibble
            > > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
            > > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
            > until after
            > > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
            > > > >Australian Susan
            > > > >
            > > > >Susan Thomas
            > > > >for
            > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
            > > > >
            > > > >(07) 3378 7344
            > > > >0411 094 688
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
            > > > >
            > > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
            > and click on
            > > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century
            > English
            > > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
            > > > >
            > > > > A Second Founding
            > > > >
            > > > > By Michael E. Ruane
            > > > >
            > > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail
            > the mighty
            > > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
            > > > >
            > > > > To view the entire article, go to
            > > >
            >
            >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050
            >
            > > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
            > > >
            >
            >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050
            >
            > > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >Terry F
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Terry Foreman
            Nice clarification. Also interesting ongoing 17c flag history, proclamation of C II that governed flagging in Pepys s day.
            Message 5 of 14 , May 11, 2007
              Nice clarification.

              Also interesting ongoing 17c flag history, proclamation of C II that
              governed flagging in Pepys's day.

              At 10:07 AM 5/11/2007 +0000, you wrote:
              >In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and
              >Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ...
              >
              >The exact design that accompanied this has been lost. Several designs
              >are known to have been considered including quartering the flags of
              >England and Scotland (as the Royal Standard is quartered) and putting
              >the two side-by-side, but the chosen design was: ...
              >
              >[Alas, text of proclamation of April 12th. 1606 and flag design will
              >not paste, see:-]
              >
              >http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >--- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Robinson"
              ><robinsonrepepys@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
              > > Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
              > > of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
              > > that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
              > > 1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98
              > >
              > > I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
              > > flag(s) of the Royal Navy?
              > >
              > > Michael Robinson
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > ** High Priority **
              > > >
              > > > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
              > > about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet
              > > the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the opposite
              > > - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
              > > with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
              > > all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
              > > somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
              > > to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
              > > what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
              > > in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
              > > dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
              > > >
              > > > Susan Thomas
              > > > for
              > > > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
              > > >
              > > > (07) 3378 7344
              > > > 0411 094 688
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
              > > > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
              > > >
              > > > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
              > > >
              > > > Terry F
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
              > > > >** High Priority **
              > > > >
              > > > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
              > > celebrations).
              > > > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
              > > Flag is
              > > > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
              > > Fleet
              > > > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not
              >added
              > > > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
              > > the Flag
              > > > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
              > > of St
              > > > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN
              >ships do
              > > > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the
              >first two
              > > > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping
              > > until
              > > > >the 18th century.
              > > > >
              > > > >Susan Thomas
              > > > >for
              > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
              > > > >
              > > > >(07) 3378 7344
              > > > >0411 094 688
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
              > > > >Email them!
              > > > >
              > > > >Terry
              > > > >
              > > > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
              > > > > >** High Priority **
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
              > > one quibble
              > > > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
              > > > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
              > > until after
              > > > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
              > > > > >Australian Susan
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Susan Thomas
              > > > > >for
              > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
              > > > > >0411 094 688
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
              > > and click on
              > > > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century
              > > English
              > > > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > A Second Founding
              > > > > >
              > > > > > By Michael E. Ruane
              > > > > >
              > > > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail
              > > the mighty
              > > > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > To view the entire article, go to
              > > > >
              > >
              > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050
              > >
              > > > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
              > > > >
              > >
              > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050
              > >
              > > > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Terry F
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Susan Thomas
              ** High Priority ** More flag information about merchant and RN ships: Maritime Flag History According to Whitney Smith s book on flags, merchant ships from
              Message 6 of 14 , May 11, 2007
                ** High Priority **

                More flag information about merchant and RN ships:

                "Maritime Flag History

                According to Whitney Smith's book on flags, merchant ships from 1606-1634 flew the Union Jack (minus the cross of St Patrick of course) on the foremast and the flag of England (Cross of St George) on the jack staff. He gives four possible positions for flags, going from fore to aft on the ship they are: jack staff, foremast, mainmast, ensign staff.

                * Before 1606 they flew the flag of England from both the foremast and the jack staff.
                * From 1634-1707 they flew the flag of England from the jack staff and a version of the Red Ensign (with the cross of St. George in the canton instead of the entire Union Jack) from the ensign staff.
                * From 1707-1801 they flew the flag of England from the jack staff and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff.
                * From 1801 onward they flew the Union Jack with a white border from the foremast and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff. "
                from this website:
                http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-hist.html#hist


                Australian Susan

                >>> terry.foreman@... 12/05/2007 1:14:50 am >>>
                Nice clarification.

                Also interesting ongoing 17c flag history, proclamation of C II that
                governed flagging in Pepys's day.

                At 10:07 AM 5/11/2007 +0000, you wrote:
                >In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and
                >Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ...
                >
                >The exact design that accompanied this has been lost. Several designs
                >are known to have been considered including quartering the flags of
                >England and Scotland (as the Royal Standard is quartered) and putting
                >the two side-by-side, but the chosen design was: ...
                >
                >[Alas, text of proclamation of April 12th. 1606 and flag design will
                >not paste, see:-]
                >
                >http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >--- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Robinson"
                ><robinsonrepepys@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
                > > Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
                > > of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
                > > that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
                > > 1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98
                > >
                > > I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
                > > flag(s) of the Royal Navy?
                > >
                > > Michael Robinson
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > ** High Priority **
                > > >
                > > > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
                > > about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea - yet
                > > the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the opposite
                > > - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
                > > with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
                > > all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
                > > somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
                > > to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
                > > what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
                > > in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
                > > dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
                > > >
                > > > Susan Thomas
                > > > for
                > > > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                > > >
                > > > (07) 3378 7344
                > > > 0411 094 688
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
                > > > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
                > > >
                > > > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
                > > >
                > > > Terry F
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
                > > > >** High Priority **
                > > > >
                > > > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
                > > celebrations).
                > > > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
                > > Flag is
                > > > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
                > > Fleet
                > > > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not
                >added
                > > > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
                > > the Flag
                > > > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
                > > of St
                > > > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN
                >ships do
                > > > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the
                >first two
                > > > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on shipping
                > > until
                > > > >the 18th century.
                > > > >
                > > > >Susan Thomas
                > > > >for
                > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                > > > >
                > > > >(07) 3378 7344
                > > > >0411 094 688
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
                > > > >Email them!
                > > > >
                > > > >Terry
                > > > >
                > > > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
                > > > > >** High Priority **
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
                > > one quibble
                > > > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag showing the
                > > > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
                > > until after
                > > > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
                > > > > >Australian Susan
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Susan Thomas
                > > > > >for
                > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
                > > > > >0411 094 688
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
                > > > > >
                > > > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
                > > and click on
                > > > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th century
                > > English
                > > > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > A Second Founding
                > > > > >
                > > > > > By Michael E. Ruane
                > > > > >
                > > > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will sail
                > > the mighty
                > > > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > To view the entire article, go to
                > > > >
                > >
                > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050
                > >
                > > > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
                > > > >
                > >
                > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050
                > >
                > > > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Terry F
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Michael Robinson
                Smith s classification for non-naval vessels appears to lack precision for our, the Diary, period. Charles I Proclamation of 5th. May 1634 specifically
                Message 7 of 14 , May 11, 2007
                  Smith's classification for non-naval vessels appears to lack precision
                  for our, the Diary, period.

                  Charles I Proclamation of 5th. May 1634 specifically forbids ANY use
                  of the
                  Union Flag by non-Royal vessels:-

                  "... prohibit and forbid that none of Our Subjects of any of our
                  Nations or Kingdoms shall from henceforth presume to carry the Union
                  Flag in the Main top or any other part of their Ship ... upon pain of
                  Our high displeasure but that the same Union Flag be still reserved as
                  an ornament proper for Our own Ships, and Ships in our immediate
                  Service and Pay, and none other."

                  And specifies the flags to be used by other ships:-

                  ... And likewise our further will and pleasure that all the other
                  Ships of our subjects of England or South Britain bearing flags shall
                  from henceforth carry the Red-Cross commonly called St George his
                  Cross as of old time has been used; and also that all other ships of
                  our subjects of Scotland or North Britain as shall henceforth carry
                  the White Cross commonly called S. Andrew's Cross, whereby the several
                  shipping may be distinguished ..."

                  [Proclamations. 1634-05-05 By the King. A proclamation appointing
                  the flags, as well for our nauie royall, as for the ships of our
                  subiects of south and north Britaine. Variant title By the King. A
                  proclamation appointing the flags, aswell for our navie royall, as for
                  the ships of our subjects of south and north Britaine
                  Imprinted at London : by Robert Barker, printer to the Kings most
                  excellent Maiestie: and by the assignes of Iohn Bill, 1634.
                  Physical descr. [1] sheet ([1] p.) ; 1⁰.
                  Dated at end: Greenewich, this fifth day of May, in the tenth yeere of
                  our reigne ... .
                  STC (2nd ed.), 9014 Steele, 1674]


                  Authorization of the use of a red ensign by merchant ships dates from
                  a Proclamation of Charles II of 18 September 1674:-

                  [By the King. A proclamation for regulating the colours to be worn on
                  merchants ships. Variant title Proclamation for regulating the
                  colours to be worn on merchants ships
                  London : printed by the assigns of John Bill and Christopher Barker,
                  printers to the Kings most Excellent Majesty, 1674.
                  Physical descr. 2 sheets (versos blank) ; 1⁰.
                  At end of text: Given at our court at Whitehall the eighteenth day
                  of September 1674. in the six and twentieth year of our reign.
                  Wing (CD-ROM, 1996), C3414]




                  --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > ** High Priority **
                  >
                  > More flag information about merchant and RN ships:
                  >
                  > "Maritime Flag History
                  >
                  > According to Whitney Smith's book on flags, merchant ships from
                  1606-1634 flew the Union Jack (minus the cross of St Patrick of
                  course) on the foremast and the flag of England (Cross of St George)
                  on the jack staff. He gives four possible positions for flags, going
                  from fore to aft on the ship they are: jack staff, foremast, mainmast,
                  ensign staff.
                  >
                  > * Before 1606 they flew the flag of England from both the
                  foremast and the jack staff.
                  > * From 1634-1707 they flew the flag of England from the jack
                  staff and a version of the Red Ensign (with the cross of St. George in
                  the canton instead of the entire Union Jack) from the ensign staff.
                  > * From 1707-1801 they flew the flag of England from the jack
                  staff and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff.
                  > * From 1801 onward they flew the Union Jack with a white border
                  from the foremast and the Red Ensign from the ensign staff. "
                  > from this website:
                  > http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-hist.html#hist
                  >
                  >
                  > Australian Susan
                  >
                  > >>> terry.foreman@... 12/05/2007 1:14:50 am >>>
                  > Nice clarification.
                  >
                  > Also interesting ongoing 17c flag history, proclamation of C II that
                  > governed flagging in Pepys's day.
                  >
                  > At 10:07 AM 5/11/2007 +0000, you wrote:
                  > >In 1606, following some altercations over flags between English and
                  > >Scottish ships, James VI and I issued the following proclamation: ...
                  > >
                  > >The exact design that accompanied this has been lost. Several designs
                  > >are known to have been considered including quartering the flags of
                  > >England and Scotland (as the Royal Standard is quartered) and putting
                  > >the two side-by-side, but the chosen design was: ...
                  > >
                  > >[Alas, text of proclamation of April 12th. 1606 and flag design will
                  > >not paste, see:-]
                  > >
                  > >http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Robinson"
                  > ><robinsonrepepys@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The ships were chartered by the Virginia Company (probably from the
                  > > > Muscovy Company)and under the command of Christopher Newport "a sort
                  > > > of sailor of fortune ready to enter the service of any group of men
                  > > > that wanted him" see Andrews, 'Colonial Period of American History,'
                  > > > 1934 (1960) Vol 1 p. 98
                  > > >
                  > > > I am curious why you both appear to believe they would be flying the
                  > > > flag(s) of the Royal Navy?
                  > > >
                  > > > Michael Robinson
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In pepysdiary@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Thomas" <susan.thomas@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ** High Priority **
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yes! But I am mystified by what this Hearts of Oak website says
                  > > > about the Union Flag - it says it was designed to be used at sea
                  - yet
                  > > > the Navy website I got my information from states exactly the
                  opposite
                  > > > - that the Navy ships used the Cross of St George and the Red Ensign
                  > > > with the St George in the in the canton in the 17th century- after
                  > > > all, it was specifically an ENGLISH Navy. Sam mentions flags
                  > > > somewhere, doesn't he? It is yet another technical area he was eager
                  > > > to learn more about. As ever! I don't think he specifically mentions
                  > > > what type of flag was being used, but the Dutch War which is brewing
                  > > > in the Diary as we read at present was partly over the question of
                  > > > dipping flags in the Channel and elsewhere.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Susan Thomas
                  > > > > for
                  > > > > Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (07) 3378 7344
                  > > > > 0411 094 688
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 11/05/2007 1:37:33 pm >>>
                  > > > > This is more period-accurate for what ships flew:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Terry F
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > At 01:02 PM 5/11/2007 +1000, you wrote:
                  > > > > >** High Priority **
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >I have done now! (the University which is co-ordinating the
                  > > > celebrations).
                  > > > > >Will let you know if they reply. The English and Scottish Union
                  > > > Flag is
                  > > > > >well known in Australia as it was the Flag the ships of the First
                  > > > Fleet
                  > > > > >sailed under. The red saltire of St Patrick for Ireland was not
                  > >added
                  > > > > >until after the Act of Union in 1801. The Navy in Sam's day flew
                  > > > the Flag
                  > > > > >of St George from the jack staff and the Red Ensign with the Flag
                  > > > of St
                  > > > > >George in the canton (not the Union Flag in the canton as RN
                  > >ships do
                  > > > > >now). NB Use by shipping was different from us on land - the
                  > >first two
                  > > > > >crossed Union Flag was introduced in 1606, but not used on
                  shipping
                  > > > until
                  > > > > >the 18th century.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >Susan Thomas
                  > > > > >for
                  > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
                  > > > > >0411 094 688
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 11:39:06 am >>>
                  > > > > >Email them!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >Terry
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >At 10:03 AM 5/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
                  > > > > > >** High Priority **
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >Wonderful site, Terry! Spent ages looking at everything - only
                  > > > one quibble
                  > > > > > >- the ships are flying the wrong flag! The Union Flag
                  showing the
                  > > > > > >connected flags of England and Scotland did not come into use
                  > > > until after
                  > > > > > >the Union of Scotland with England in 1707.
                  > > > > > >Australian Susan
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >Susan Thomas
                  > > > > > >for
                  > > > > > >Emphron Informatics Pty. Ltd.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >(07) 3378 7344
                  > > > > > >0411 094 688
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >>> terry.foreman@ 10/05/2007 1:09 am >>>
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >See the info boxes below the photo to the right of this article
                  > > > and click on
                  > > > > > >JAMESTOWN 400 to see other stories, multimedia about 17th
                  century
                  > > > English
                  > > > > > >entrepreneurs in Virginia.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > A Second Founding
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > By Michael E. Ruane
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > JAMESTOWN, Va. -- Once again, the three brave ships will
                  sail
                  > > > the mighty
                  > > > > > >James and moor by Virginia's fair shore.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > To view the entire article, go to
                  > > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050

                  > > >
                  > > > > > 802053.html?referrer=emailarticle
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to
                  > > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailafriend?contentId=AR2007050

                  > > >
                  > > > > > 802053&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >Terry F
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
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