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Re: [pdxbackstage] Revelatory Communication

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  • Robert Projansky
    Ooh - the Grammar Rodeo!! Thank you, Mary. Right. Remember folks: its is the only English possessive (I think) made by adding an s without an apostrophe,
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 1 3:31 AM
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      Ooh - the Grammar Rodeo!! Thank you, Mary.

      Right. Remember folks: "its" is the only English possessive (I think) made by adding an "s" without an apostrophe, and "it's", with an apostrophe,  always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS". BTW, the Oregonian either doesn't know or doesn't care how to use apostrophes correctly with words or names that end in "s", preferring instead a simpler but incorrect style, so do not look to it as an apostrophe guide. If you're unsure how to do a particular word, I suggest Googling the NY Times or the New Yorker with your choices. 

      And while we're at it, there are never "less people" or "less cats" or "less things". There are FEWER people, cats and things. "Less" is only for collective nouns:  less time, less sand, less tolerance. 

      And lastly (for now) "different" and "differently" should be followed by "from", NOT "than". A is different from B, NOT different than B. "Than" is for the comparative form of adjectives: A may be stupider, wronger and ignoranter than B, but A is NOT different than B.

      Sorry, I lied, that wasn't the last one. Unless you're a Rasta, don't say "between he and I",  or "after she and he" or "under my supervisor and they". This kind of abomination is spreading like kudzu; if you listen to the radio or watch TV for 30 minutes I guarantee you will hear some professional yakker, a native speaker of English, use a nominative pronoun as the object of a preposition, usually when there are two objects. Prepositions take the objective case, to wit: me, him, her, us, them even if there are two of them. It's between him and me. It's up to you and her.  He came for them and us. This wretched misuse starts in first grade when the teacher says, "No, no, Johnny, 'Me and Jimmy went home' is wrong; you should say, 'Jimmy and I went home.' " So far, so good, but Johnny, learning the wrong lesson, and never able to distinguish the difference between a subject and an object, says, for the rest of his life, "She really had eyes for Jimmy and I" and lots worse in the same path of error, vice and moral decay.

      And here's a non-grammar usage throw-in: to avoid some condescending smirks behind your back: say "chaise longue" -- pronounced shez long, French for "long chair" -- NOT "chaise lounge".

      Best to all,

      Bob Projansky



       
      On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Scott wrote:


      On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Gregory Adams <g_adams86@yahoo. com>wrote:
      I am so happy to know I wasn't the only one having those thoughts as I was reading...

      Thank you Mary

      I echo the remarks of Gregory Adams (having recast my sentence with an "of" clause to avoid an awkward possessive apostrophe question), and in addition direct attention to "Apostrophes with Pronouns" at http://englishplus. com/grammar/ 00000134. htm -- may I never again see a poster for a high school improv night, which apparently made it past a drama/ENGLISH teacher, headlined with "WHO'S LINE IS IT ANYWAY?"

      Kevin Scott




    • curthanson.sag@verizon.net
      Yoiks! Moral Decay !!! Thanks, sir, for the language/grammar lesson. Now if I could just say nucular.... Curt Feb 1, 2009 03:31:27 AM,
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1 8:33 AM
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        Yoiks!  "Moral Decay"!!!  Thanks, sir, for the language/grammar lesson.  Now if I could just say "nucular...."   Curt


        Feb 1, 2009 03:31:27 AM, rprojansky@... wrote:

        Ooh - the Grammar Rodeo!! Thank you, Mary.


        Right. Remember folks: "its" is the only English possessive (I think) made by adding an "s" without an apostrophe, and "it's", with an apostrophe,  always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS". BTW, the Oregonian either doesn't know or doesn't care how to use apostrophes correctly with words or names that end in "s", preferring instead a simpler but incorrect style, so do not look to it as an apostrophe guide. If you're unsure how to do a particular word, I suggest Googling the NY Times or the New Yorker with your choices. 

        And while we're at it, there are never "less people" or "less cats" or "less things". There are FEWER people, cats and things. "Less" is only for collective nouns:  less time, less sand, less tolerance. 

        And lastly (for now) "different" and "differently" should be followed by "from", NOT "than". A is different from B, NOT different than B. "Than" is for the comparative form of adjectives: A may be stupider, wronger and ignoranter than B, but A is NOT different than B.

        Sorry, I lied, that wasn't the last one. Unless you're a Rasta, don't say "between he and I",  or "after she and he" or "under my supervisor and they". This kind of abomination is spreading like kudzu; if you listen to the radio or watch TV for 30 minutes I guarantee you will hear some professional yakker, a native speaker of English, use a nominative pronoun as the object of a preposition, usually when there are two objects. Prepositions take the objective case, to wit: me, him, her, us, them even if there are two of them. It's between him and me. It's up to you and her.  He came for them and us. This wretched misuse starts in first grade when the teacher says, "No, no, Johnny, 'Me and Jimmy went home' is wrong; you should say, 'Jimmy and I went home.' " So far, so good, but Johnny, learning the wrong lesson, and never able to distinguish the difference between a subject and an object, says, for the rest of his life, "She really had eyes for Jimmy and I" and lots worse in the same path of error, vice and moral decay.

        And here's a non-grammar usage throw-in: to avoid some condescending smirks behind your back: say "chaise longue" -- pronounced shez long, French for "long chair" -- NOT "chaise lounge".

        Best to all,

        Bob Projansky




        On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Scott wrote:


        On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Gregory Adams <g_adams86@...>wrote:
        I am so happy to know I wasn't the only one having those thoughts as I was reading...

        Thank you Mary

        I echo the remarks of Gregory Adams (having recast my sentence with an "of" clause to avoid an awkward possessive apostrophe question), and in addition direct attention to "Apostrophes with Pronouns" at http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000134.htm -- may I never again see a poster for a high school improv night, which apparently made it past a drama/ENGLISH teacher, headlined with "WHO'S LINE IS IT ANYWAY?"

        Kevin Scott




      • David Loftus
        ... And if you don t mind evoking a different kind of smirk, pronounce it the truly French way: loang(uh) . . . . -- David
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1 8:42 AM
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          > And here's a non-grammar usage throw-in: to avoid some condescending
          > smirks behind your back: say "chaise longue" -- pronounced shez long,
          > French for "long chair" -- NOT "chaise lounge".


          And if you don't mind evoking a different kind of smirk, pronounce it the truly French way: "loang(uh)". . . .


          -- David
        • mary mcdonald-lewis
          And if each of us dares to risk that smirk and pronounces it fort when it is used as anything *other* than as a musical term, thereby instructing the whole
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1 11:43 AM
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            And if each of us dares to risk that smirk and pronounces it "fort" when it is used as anything *other* than as a musical term, thereby instructing the whole of the territories, surely the angels will return to earth, and cheering heard throughout the land.

            "Grammar is my forte (pronounced 'fort')."

            "Math is not my forte (pronounced 'fort')."

            "This piano passage is to be played forte (pronounced 'for-tay')."

            MM

            And here's a non-grammar usage throw-in: to avoid some condescending smirks behind your back: say "chaise longue" -- pronounced shez long, French for "long chair" -- NOT "chaise lounge".
          • mary mcdonald-lewis
            ... ...by which Bob means it s, with an apostrophe, never, never, never, NEVER means IT HAS. Though I m certain the comma he intended to stand obediently
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 1 11:47 AM
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              and "it's", with an apostrophe,  always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS".

              ...by which Bob means "it's," with an apostrophe, never, never, never, NEVER means "IT HAS."

              Though I'm certain the comma he intended to stand obediently inside his quotation marks simply peregrinated outside them altogether on, well, its own.

              MM

            • Kevin Scott
              It is my understanding that the placement of the comma is a matter of style, and therefore a matter of personal choice, unless writing for a publication that
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 1 1:00 PM
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                It is my understanding that the placement of the comma is a matter of
                style, and therefore a matter of personal choice, unless writing for a
                publication that mandates the use of a particular stylebook --
                however, I agree with Bob, as emended by Mary, that it is a hard
                grammatical rule that "it's" with an apostrophe is always, always,
                always, ALWAYS a contraction of the pronoun "it" and some verb ending
                in S. (Quotation marks around S intentionally omitted to avoid having
                to decide whether the following period has to stand obediently inside
                them.)

                Kevin

                On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:47 AM, mary mcdonald-lewis <mary@...> wrote:
                >
                > and "it's", with an apostrophe, always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS".
                >
                > ...by which Bob means "it's," with an apostrophe, never, never, never, NEVER means "IT HAS."
                > Though I'm certain the comma he intended to stand obediently inside his quotation marks simply peregrinated outside them altogether on, well, its own.
              • curthanson.sag@verizon.net
                One wonders if we can draw this discussion out and experience as much angst, such depth of knowledge and understanding or as much (or little) inventiveness as
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 1 1:17 PM
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                  One wonders if we can draw this discussion out and experience as much angst, such depth of knowledge and understanding or as much (or little) inventiveness as was demonstrated the last couple of looooooooooooooooooooooooooong OT strings....  CH
                   

                  On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 01:01:04 PM, kevinnscott@... wrote:

                  It is my understanding that the placement of the comma is a matter of
                  style, and therefore a matter of personal choice, unless writing for a
                  publication that mandates the use of a particular stylebook --
                  however, I agree with Bob, as emended by Mary, that it is a hard
                  grammatical rule that "it's" with an apostrophe is always, always,
                  always, ALWAYS a contraction of the pronoun "it" and some verb ending
                  in S. (Quotation marks around S intentionally omitted to avoid having
                  to decide whether the following period has to stand obediently inside
                  them.)

                  Kevin

                  On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:47 AM, mary mcdonald-lewis <mary@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > and "it's", with an apostrophe, always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS".
                  >
                  > ...by which Bob means "it's," with an apostrophe, never, never, never, NEVER means "IT HAS."
                  > Though I'm certain the comma he intended to stand obediently inside his quotation marks simply peregrinated outside them altogether on, well, its own.

                • mary mcdonald-lewis
                  Oh dear god no, not in the least. Always inside the quotation marks, unless you are in Britain, in which case you place them outside of the quotation marks,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 1 1:34 PM
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                    Oh dear god no, not in the least.  Always inside the quotation marks, unless you are in Britain, in which case you place them outside of the quotation marks, and drive on the wrong side of the road (which should tell you something about the wisdom of their comma placement.)  The one exception is when ending a quote with a single letter or number:

                    The highest mark possible is "100".  

                    Forced to pick, I chose door "B".

                    I read it was historical accident that caused the placement to occur, and found on the internets: "When type was handset, a period or comma outside of quotation marks at the end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position, so the printers tucked the little devils inside the quotation marks to keep them safe and out of trouble."

                    However, just as that lisping Castillian king caused an "s" treatment that continues in Spain today, one must have standards no matter the origin, or risk anarchy altogether.

                    Here is an interesting manual of style, quite comprehensive and well-organized, that some might enjoy.  I give it a good solid "10".


                    MM


                    On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Kevin Scott wrote:

                    It is my understanding that the placement of the comma is a matter of
                    style, and therefore a matter of personal choice, unless writing for a
                    publication that mandates the use of a particular stylebook --
                  • mary mcdonald-lewis
                    ... -- The period just above, wrongly placed inside the parenthesis, being a fine example of the age-old truism, she who spends too much time correcting the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 1 1:40 PM
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                      Always inside the quotation marks, unless you are in Britain, in which case you place them outside of the quotation marks, and drive on the wrong side of the road (which should tell you something about the wisdom of their comma placement.) 

                      -- The period just above, wrongly placed inside the parenthesis, being a fine example of the age-old truism, "she who spends too much time correcting the writing of others will eventually be revealed an ass."  

                      By her own hand, no less.

                      MM

                    • Kevin Scott
                      ... AND (which, in spite of anything Mr. Ulrich s Mrs. Dub-dub might have told you, is a very good word to begin a sentence or even a paragraph with -- and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 1 3:52 PM
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                        On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:34 PM, mary mcdonald-lewis <mary@...> wrote:
                        > Oh dear god no, not in the least. Always inside the quotation marks, unless
                        > you are in Britain, in which case you place them outside of the quotation
                        > marks, and drive on the wrong side of the road (which should tell you
                        > something about the wisdom of their comma placement.) [sic]

                        AND (which, in spite of anything Mr. Ulrich's Mrs. Dub-dub might have
                        told you, is a very good word to begin a sentence or even a paragraph
                        with -- and even her rule about never ending a clause with a
                        preposition is not as hard as she would have had you believe) the
                        standard British conventions for the placement of single and double
                        quotation marks are just as opposed to US standards as their rules
                        about which side to drive on. (Is being different necessarily the same
                        as being wrong -- outside of apostrophes, of course -- ?)

                        Kevin Scott

                        'Why did you bring the book I did not want to be read to out of up
                        for?' -- attributed to Sir Winston Churchill, though it would have
                        given Mrs. Dub-dub apoplexy
                      • Kevin Scott
                        WHAT did you bring the book I did not want to be read to out of up for? -- time to drop this thread, take an aspirin and retire for a while
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 1 3:57 PM
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                          'WHAT did you bring the book I did not want to be read to out of up
                          for?' -- time to drop this thread, take an aspirin and retire for a
                          while
                        • Chrisse Roccaro
                          ...and when you add bouillon to your cooking, it s (it is) bwee-on, not bull-yon...I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PS If your cooking is what it ought to
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 1 8:20 PM
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                            ...and when you add bouillon to your cooking, it's (it is) bwee-on, not bull-yon...I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                            PS If your cooking is what it ought to be, you don't have to add bouillon...you use the proper spices and homemade stock to make the dish sparkle!
                            I'm so glad we're all friends again!
                            --
                            ChriSSe RoCCaRo
                            Actor, Singer, Teacher
                            www.roccaro.info
                            "Every man I knew went to bed with Gilda...and woke up with me."  Rita Hayworth
                          • Eularee Smith
                            How refreshing to find grammar as a topic! The grammarians in the room applaud you. James Kilpatrick, author of The Writer s Art column retired and I will so
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 1 9:16 PM
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                              How refreshing to find grammar as a topic! The grammarians in the
                              room applaud you. James Kilpatrick, author of The Writer's Art column
                              retired and I will so miss his weekly attempts at creating a love of
                              the English language and its proper use in the written form.
                            • jrowe98663@aol.com
                              Bob: I was glad to see one of this group s charter members/leaders (that would be you) include the possessive apostrophe S after proper nouns ending in S
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 2 3:07 PM
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                                Bob:
                                I was glad to see one of this group's "charter" members/leaders (that would be you) include the possessive apostrophe S after proper nouns ending in S topic in this grammar discussion.  Many will remember a long and surprisingly heated OT exchange about that last year.  I neglected to get in on it at the time, even though it's one of the most annoying errors for me to see and hear. 
                                 
                                Although many cited references to back up their position that S' is acceptable for a singular noun possessive, it is not, as you point out, correct.  Obviously it is "accepted" - but not proper..  I tend to blame the Associated Press for spreading this toxic practice, as they seem to have a monopoly on newswire services these days.  I'm not familiar with newspaper & magazine editing procedures, but I assume much of the newswire articles go essentially unedited by the publications.  Also, I don't know how much editing of newswire stories occurs for teleprompters used by TV anchors.  They're notorious for leaving off the additional S in their pronunciation, which wouldn't be as common if it were up there on the screen.  How long are we are we going to have to read (in huge-font headlines, no less) or hear about Sam Adams' (no s) so-called scandal?
                                 
                                You mention The New York Times and The New Yorker, and I add Newsweek, as examples of cream-of the- crop, top-of-the-heap guides to follow.  Never (or almost never) will you see that S after the apostrophe missing with a single proper noun possessive in these esteemed publications.  And who would not want to emulate them or would accuse them of using incorrect grammar?
                                 
                                One argument I've heard for omitting the S claims that it's too difficult to pronounce.  But it's no more difficult to say "in Jesus's (Jezusiz) name" than it is to say "Jesus iz my hero."  "Sam Adams's office" is just as easy to spit out as "Sam Adams is our mayor."  I'll admit to some possible exceptions (this is English, after all).  They would involve names with two or more syllables containing Z-sound S's.  Moses, for example.  Mozeziz may take some effort  to say beautifully. Going beyond that with exceptions just leads to widespread abuse!!  I've seen a plain, old apostrophe after names ending in X.  Alex'.  I even heard a beloved classical music radio host speak about Horowitz' piano style!!  HELP!!
                                 
                                Just so I can justify not going back to add OT to the Subject line, think about this:  How many writers out there, including scriptwriters, leave out that second S, tricking the actor into skipping the additional syllable?   On a recent NCIS episode, three proper names used in the script ended with S.  Only one of the five fine actors pronounced the possessive forms properly.  I never talked back to the TV so much!
                                 
                                And Bob - thanks for also including the ME vs. I thing as direct or indirect object.  That one makes my skin crawl, especially when I hear it from a NEWS anchor or in a script - or, or.......arghhh...don't get me started again!  Thanks.  It's been fun......I, I, mean it has been fun - sort of.
                                 
                                John Rowe
                                 
                                 
                                In a message dated 2/1/2009 3:31:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rprojansky@... writes:

                                Ooh - the Grammar Rodeo!! Thank you, Mary.


                                Right. Remember folks: "its" is the only English possessive (I think) made by adding an "s" without an apostrophe, and "it's", with an apostrophe,  always, always, always, ALWAYS means "IT IS". BTW, the Oregonian either doesn't know or doesn't care how to use apostrophes correctly with words or names that end in "s", preferring instead a simpler but incorrect style, so do not look to it as an apostrophe guide. If you're unsure how to do a particular word, I suggest Googling the NY Times or the New Yorker with your choices. 

                                And while we're at it, there are never "less people" or "less cats" or "less things". There are FEWER people, cats and things. "Less" is only for collective nouns:  less time, less sand, less tolerance. 

                                And lastly (for now) "different" and "differently" should be followed by "from", NOT "than". A is different from B, NOT different than B. "Than" is for the comparative  form of adjectives: A may be stupider, wronger and ignoranter than B, but A is NOT different than B.

                                Sorry, I lied, that wasn't the last one. Unless you're a Rasta, don't say "between he and I",  or "after she and he" or "under my supervisor and they". This kind of abomination is spreading like kudzu; if you listen to the radio or watch TV for 30 minutes I guarantee you will hear some professional yakker, a native speaker of English, use a nominative pronoun as the object of a preposition, usually when there are two objects. Preposition s take the objective case, to wit: me, him, her, us, them even if there are two of them. It's between him and me. It's up to you and her.  He came for them and us. This wretched misuse starts in first grade when the teacher says, "No, no, Johnny, 'Me and Jimmy went home' is wrong; you should say, 'Jimmy and I went home.' " So far, so good, but Johnny, learning the wrong lesson, and never able to distinguish the difference between a subject and an object, says, for the rest of his life, "She really had eyes for Jimmy and I" and lots worse in the same path of error, vice and moral decay.

                                And here's a non-grammar usage throw-in: to avoid some condescending smirks behind your back: say "chaise longue" -- pronounced shez long, French for "long chair" -- NOT "chaise lounge".

                                Best to all,

                                Bob Projansky




                                On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Scott wrote:


                                On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Gregory Adams <g_adams86@yahoo. com>wrote:
                                I am so happy to know I wasn't the only one having those thoughts as I was reading...

                                Thank you Mary

                                I echo the remarks of Gregory Adams (having recast my sentence with an "of" clause to avoid an awkward possessive apostrophe question), and in addition direct attention to "Apostrophes with Pronouns" at http://englishplus. com/grammar/ 00000134. htm -- may I never again see a poster for a high school improv night, which apparently made it past a drama/ENGLISH teacher, headlined with "WHO'S LINE IS IT ANYWAY?"

                                Kevin Scott






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