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Translated PCGen wishlist

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  • tymophil
    Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the right direction. 1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of sets.
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 24, 2007
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      Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
      right direction.

      1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
      sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.

      2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
      (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
      Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages translation.

      When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
      along with the correct translated display information file.

      This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.
    • ^*^ Sir Mithras ^*^
      I like your dream too We can reqiured a new universal tag with language es.: LANG:English This can be put in every original file NOT pcc but lst. Therafter we
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 24, 2007
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        I like your dream too

        We can reqiured a new universal tag with language es.: LANG:English

        This can be put in every original file NOT pcc but lst.

        Therafter we can create for every lst file a language copy in this
        manner
        Es:

        rsrd_classes_base.lst (original with LANG:English)
        fr_rsrd_classes_base.lst (copy with .MOD tag and LANG:French)
        it_rsrd_classes_base.lst (copy with .MOD tag and LANG:Italian)


        we need only 4 alternative for .MOD tag:
        - OUTPUTNAME (this must work with EVERY name/subname/alternativename)
        - ABB (this for class only and work fine for now)
        - DESC (must automatic replace for change language, please without
        .CLEAR)
        - SA (this must automatic replace line for line, level for level)

        Naturally the system must be capable of change language in menu setting;
        Must read the 4 upper tag only for associate language:
        If set menu English,
        the OUTPUTNAME/ABB/DESC/SA read only if lst tag LANG:English

        the tag LANG must work with system lst too for translate everything


        Sorry for my poor english
        --
        Sir Mithras


        -----Messaggio originale-----
        Da: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di tymophil
        Inviato: mercoledì 25 aprile 2007 7.52
        A: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com
        Oggetto: [pcgen_international] Translated PCGen wishlist

        Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
        right direction.

        1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
        sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.

        2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
        (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
        Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages translation.

        When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
        along with the correct translated display information file.

        This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.




        Yahoo! Groups Links





        --
        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.10/774 - Release Date:
        23/04/2007 17.26
      • Alvise Nicoletti
        Yes, finally that is the first step. The second is to have the translation in an ordered and querable data source like a database, allowing to generate
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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          Yes, finally that is the first step.

          The second is to have the translation in an ordered and querable data source
          like a database, allowing to generate multiple datasets in zero time (even
          if they changes a few).

          Who's working on that direction? Can I show you a stupid php script that
          does that thing with two demo languages?

          2007/4/25, ^*^ Sir Mithras ^*^ <mithras@...>:
          >
          > I like your dream too
          >
          > We can reqiured a new universal tag with language es.: LANG:English
          >
          > This can be put in every original file NOT pcc but lst.
          >
          > Therafter we can create for every lst file a language copy in this
          > manner
          > Es:
          >
          > rsrd_classes_base.lst (original with LANG:English)
          > fr_rsrd_classes_base.lst (copy with .MOD tag and LANG:French)
          > it_rsrd_classes_base.lst (copy with .MOD tag and LANG:Italian)
          >
          > we need only 4 alternative for .MOD tag:
          > - OUTPUTNAME (this must work with EVERY name/subname/alternativename)
          > - ABB (this for class only and work fine for now)
          > - DESC (must automatic replace for change language, please without
          > .CLEAR)
          > - SA (this must automatic replace line for line, level for level)
          >
          > Naturally the system must be capable of change language in menu setting;
          > Must read the 4 upper tag only for associate language:
          > If set menu English,
          > the OUTPUTNAME/ABB/DESC/SA read only if lst tag LANG:English
          >
          > the tag LANG must work with system lst too for translate everything
          >
          > Sorry for my poor english
          > --
          > Sir Mithras
          >
          > -----Messaggio originale-----
          > Da: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com<pcgen_international%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com<pcgen_international%40yahoogroups.com>]
          > Per conto di tymophil
          > Inviato: mercoledì 25 aprile 2007 7.52
          > A: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com<pcgen_international%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Oggetto: [pcgen_international] Translated PCGen wishlist
          >
          > Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
          > right direction.
          >
          > 1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
          > sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.
          >
          > 2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
          > (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
          > Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages translation.
          >
          > When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
          > along with the correct translated display information file.
          >
          > This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.10/774 - Release Date:
          > 23/04/2007 17.26
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tir Gwaith
          ... NO - to both DESC and SA. Now, implement those with PREINTL:French or whatever, sure. But to limit objects to one SA / DESC just breaks some flexibility
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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            > we need only 4 alternative for .MOD tag:
            > - OUTPUTNAME (this must work with EVERY name/subname/alternativename)
            > - ABB (this for class only and work fine for now)
            > - DESC (must automatic replace for change language, please without
            > .CLEAR)
            > - SA (this must automatic replace line for line, level for level)

            NO - to both DESC and SA. Now, implement those with PREINTL:French or
            whatever, sure. But to limit objects to one SA / DESC just breaks
            some flexibility we've needed and just got finished doing code work on
            (and will be converting data to take advantage of in the near future.)


            --
            Tir Gwaith
            PCGen LST Chimp
          • Ludovic Fierville
            I see we are mainly talking about datasets, but if we want a truly internationalized program, some other points are important : - interface - documentation -
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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              I see we are mainly talking about datasets, but if we want a truly
              internationalized program, some other points are important :
              - interface
              - documentation
              - outputsheets

              • interface : the best would be to use variables for every label
              appearing in the interface, these variables being defined in an
              external file, this file being called by choosing the language in the
              preferences

              • documentation : that's one tough cookie. I don't see how we could
              mutualize data between languages, we would need a complete
              translation of the docs, with teams assigned to a particular
              language, for updating the translated docs when the original
              (english) one is modified.

              • outputsheets : we would need to update the html, xml and xslt files
              to use translated labels. We could perhaps use the same mechanism as
              the interface, with variables and a language file to define them. We
              could use this opportunity to correct the sheets to use external css
              files for appearance (I think that a different html file just because
              of different colors is a waste of efforts). I have quite a bit
              experience with css and html programming and could have a look as how
              to do that (I peeked at the source code of some of the html files and
              got quite a headache :) ). We could even try to atomize the sheets a
              bit, as I think a read Barak said, for exemple to have a weapon
              block, a skills block, etc. in external files called by a master html
              (or xml) file.

              In short, we have quite a bit of work on our hands to produce a truly
              internationalized program :)

              Ludo


              Le 25 avr. 07 à 07:52, tymophil a écrit :

              > Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
              > right direction.
              >
              > 1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
              > sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.
              >
              > 2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
              > (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
              > Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages
              > translation.
              >
              > When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
              > along with the correct translated display information file.
              >
              > This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.

              Ludovic Fierville
              lfierville<at>gmail<dot>com

              ~ Tengoku de omachisi te imasu ~
            • ^*^ Sir Mithras ^*^
              ... Da: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di Tir Gwaith Inviato: mercoledì 25 aprile 2007 11.26 A:
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                -----Messaggio originale-----
                Da: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di Tir Gwaith
                Inviato: mercoledì 25 aprile 2007 11.26
                A: pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com
                Oggetto: Re: R: [pcgen_international] Translated PCGen wishlist

                > we need only 4 alternative for .MOD tag:
                > - OUTPUTNAME (this must work with EVERY name/subname/alternativename)
                > - ABB (this for class only and work fine for now)
                > - DESC (must automatic replace for change language, please without
                > .CLEAR)
                > - SA (this must automatic replace line for line, level for level)

                NO - to both DESC and SA. Now, implement those with PREINTL:French or
                whatever, sure. But to limit objects to one SA / DESC just breaks
                some flexibility we've needed and just got finished doing code work on
                (and will be converting data to take advantage of in the near future.)

                ___________
                I tir,
                Sorry for my english but i didn't say that

                I say if .lst file have tag LANG:English or none (default is English)
                and a setting/preference is set in Italian
                then, when the system loads the .lst ignore DESC and SA tag

                in this manner for example I have:

                * default.PCC with this line:
                FEAT:@/data/default_feat.lst

                * default_feat.lst
                (with or without LANG:English)
                turn undead SA:turn undead (Su) DESC:Turn Undead
                Creature

                * default_feat_<language>.lst
                LANG:<language>
                Turn undead.MOD OUTPUTNAME:Scacciare non-morti SA:turn undead
                (Sop) DESC:Scaccia creature non-morte
                ----------------------------------------------------------
                When i set English in preference and load .pcc, it ignore every
                _<language>.lst file.
                When i set <language> in preference and load .pcc, system searches for
                alternative file _<language>.lst an loads both:
                * default_feat.lst ignoring every tag SA and DESC
                * default_feat_<language>.lst of language choose in preference

                If I want change language I must unload .pcc but I think the db is less
                busy and you haven't to add a new tag

                In this manner we can also find easy bug on traslate

                --
                Sorry for my poor english
                Sir Mithras
              • Alvise Nicoletti
                The thing all needs is internationalized character sheets. We don t need to translate everyone, we can start with the basic one and i don t really think it can
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                  The thing all needs is internationalized character sheets.

                  We don't need to translate everyone, we can start with the basic one and i
                  don't really think it can take more than 2 hours.

                  The problem are the datasets, and the most important are skills, and feats.
                  Races/Classes are fast to translate too.
                  For me, the rest, can be in english, if I manage to print character sheets
                  with internationalized skills/feats they can be used by my players.

                  Otherwise... no.

                  Spells and other things are not important for us...

                  2007/4/25, Ludovic Fierville <lfierville@...>:
                  >
                  > I see we are mainly talking about datasets, but if we want a truly
                  > internationalized program, some other points are important :
                  > - interface
                  > - documentation
                  > - outputsheets
                  >
                  > � interface : the best would be to use variables for every label
                  > appearing in the interface, these variables being defined in an
                  > external file, this file being called by choosing the language in the
                  > preferences
                  >
                  > � documentation : that's one tough cookie. I don't see how we could
                  > mutualize data between languages, we would need a complete
                  > translation of the docs, with teams assigned to a particular
                  > language, for updating the translated docs when the original
                  > (english) one is modified.
                  >
                  > � outputsheets : we would need to update the html, xml and xslt files
                  > to use translated labels. We could perhaps use the same mechanism as
                  > the interface, with variables and a language file to define them. We
                  > could use this opportunity to correct the sheets to use external css
                  > files for appearance (I think that a different html file just because
                  > of different colors is a waste of efforts). I have quite a bit
                  > experience with css and html programming and could have a look as how
                  > to do that (I peeked at the source code of some of the html files and
                  > got quite a headache :) ). We could even try to atomize the sheets a
                  > bit, as I think a read Barak said, for exemple to have a weapon
                  > block, a skills block, etc. in external files called by a master html
                  > (or xml) file.
                  >
                  > In short, we have quite a bit of work on our hands to produce a truly
                  > internationalized program :)
                  >
                  > Ludo
                  >
                  >
                  > Le 25 avr. 07 � 07:52, tymophil a �crit :
                  >
                  > > Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
                  > > right direction.
                  > >
                  > > 1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
                  > > sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.
                  > >
                  > > 2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
                  > > (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
                  > > Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages
                  > > translation.
                  > >
                  > > When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
                  > > along with the correct translated display information file.
                  > >
                  > > This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.
                  >
                  > Ludovic Fierville
                  > lfierville<at>gmail<dot>com
                  >
                  > ~ Tengoku de omachisi te imasu ~
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Riccardo
                  I suggest you to see directory /system/gameMode/*.lst if u change dataset name of what you wont there, then it changes on the sheet. The problem is that (for
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                    I suggest you to see directory /system/gameMode/*.lst
                    if u change dataset name of what you wont there, then it changes on
                    the sheet. The problem is that (for example) if i changes stength abb
                    in ABB:For then i must change every variable in dataset for BONUS

                    If we translate all .lst we can translate all, but i didn't want
                    rewrite dataset, i want use OUTPUTNAME (if necessary OUTPUTABB tag)
                    for gameMode .lst file too, or same other kind of dictionary

                    for now i can create every d20 based homemake game in italian with
                    the pcgen, without programming outputsheets or plugin

                    but for change all language i must rewrite .lst file in another
                    language


                    --
                    sorry for my poor english
                    Sir Mithras

                    > • outputsheets : we would need to update the html, xml and xslt
                    files
                    > to use translated labels. We could perhaps use the same mechanism
                    as
                    > the interface, with variables and a language file to define them.
                    We
                    > could use this opportunity to correct the sheets to use external
                    css
                    > files for appearance (I think that a different html file just
                    because
                    > of different colors is a waste of efforts). I have quite a bit
                    > experience with css and html programming and could have a look as
                    how
                    > to do that (I peeked at the source code of some of the html files
                    and
                    > got quite a headache :) ). We could even try to atomize the sheets
                    a
                    > bit, as I think a read Barak said, for exemple to have a weapon
                    > block, a skills block, etc. in external files called by a master
                    html
                    > (or xml) file.
                    >
                    > In short, we have quite a bit of work on our hands to produce a
                    truly
                    > internationalized program :)
                    >
                  • Aubé Philippe
                    ... It is already the case... But the file is not yet completely translated. I am working on it. But many things needing translation and are not directly
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                      Ludovic Fierville a écrit :
                      > I see we are mainly talking about datasets, but if we want a truly
                      > internationalized program, some other points are important :
                      > - interface
                      > - documentation
                      > - outputsheets
                      >
                      > • interface : the best would be to use variables for every label
                      > appearing in the interface, these variables being defined in an
                      > external file, this file being called by choosing the language in the
                      > preferences
                      >
                      It is already the case... But the file is not yet completely translated.
                      I am working on it.

                      But many things needing translation and are not directly linked to the
                      interface, but to the game mode. There is, presently, no way to
                      translate them. And this includes things like the abilities, the saves,
                      the size categories... Some very important informations !
                      > • documentation : that's one tough cookie. I don't see how we could
                      > mutualize data between languages, we would need a complete
                      > translation of the docs, with teams assigned to a particular
                      > language, for updating the translated docs when the original
                      > (english) one is modified.
                      >
                      In my opinion this is rather low on the priority ladder. Because most
                      people that need to refer to the documentation are not the average PCGen
                      user, and are rather smart, smart enough to read in English.
                      > • outputsheets : we would need to update the html, xml and xslt files
                      > to use translated labels. We could perhaps use the same mechanism as
                      > the interface, with variables and a language file to define them. We
                      > could use this opportunity to correct the sheets to use external css
                      > files for appearance (I think that a different html file just because
                      > of different colors is a waste of efforts). I have quite a bit
                      > experience with css and html programming and could have a look as how
                      > to do that (I peeked at the source code of some of the html files and
                      > got quite a headache :) ). We could even try to atomize the sheets a
                      > bit, as I think a read Barak said, for exemple to have a weapon
                      > block, a skills block, etc. in external files called by a master html
                      > (or xml) file.
                      >
                      I made some custom sheets myself. If my memory serves me well, most of
                      the output sheet informations displayed refer to informations that
                      require translation within game mode or data sets. Of course some maybe
                      translated directly in the outputsheet file, but this is a very quick
                      and easy task.
                      > In short, we have quite a bit of work on our hands to produce a truly
                      > internationalized program :)
                      >
                      > Ludo
                      >
                      >
                      > Le 25 avr. 07 à 07:52, tymophil a écrit :
                      >
                      >
                      >> Let me muse on what I dream of... It may point the programmers in the
                      >> right direction.
                      >>
                      >> 1. I would like to have only ONE data set dispayed in the list of
                      >> sets. Not the sets in English alongside the French ones.
                      >>
                      >> 2. Several files per data set file. One for the technical information
                      >> (in english), one for each language for the displayed informations.
                      >> Very similar to the file that holds the interface messages
                      >> translation.
                      >>
                      >> When I select a language, the software would use the technical file
                      >> along with the correct translated display information file.
                      >>
                      >> This way, each and every PC file would be readable in ANY language.
                      >>
                      >
                      > Ludovic Fierville
                      > lfierville<at>gmail<dot>com
                      >
                      > ~ Tengoku de omachisi te imasu ~
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Alvise Nicoletti
                      That is what I was talking about all this month having no success or answers by you. The actual translation method is wrong, we can t edit .lst files in this
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                        That is what I was talking about all this month having no success or answers
                        by you.

                        The actual translation method is wrong, we can't edit .lst files in this
                        dumb way to translate things, it lucks of flexibility.

                        All textual datasets must be generated by a "source", and in THIS process
                        the translation must be putted inside the datasets, from a database.

                        You can't really want to translate a software like PcGen without changing
                        the way of being readed from the ide of the sources ...

                        However: I'm noone here and I'm tired to lose my time in writing proposals
                        without being answered.

                        I'll just translate what I need for me to be translated, as a master of D&D,
                        and when I will reach that objective I'll just keep my pcgen version to the
                        one I'm using now.

                        Bye

                        2007/4/25, Riccardo <mithras@...>:
                        >
                        > but for change all language i must rewrite .lst file in another
                        > language
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tir Gwaith
                        ... That sounds _really_ good, and I think it won t be hard to implement that. -- Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                          > If we translate all .lst we can translate all, but i didn't want
                          > rewrite dataset, i want use OUTPUTNAME (if necessary OUTPUTABB tag)
                          > for gameMode .lst file too, or same other kind of dictionary

                          That sounds _really_ good, and I think it won't be hard to implement that.

                          --
                          Tir Gwaith
                          PCGen LST Chimp
                        • Tom Parker
                          ... process ... I agree there needs to be some methods of translating without modifying the base LST files. From the discussion, not everyone is convinced of
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 25, 2007
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                            --- In pcgen_international@yahoogroups.com, "Alvise Nicoletti"
                            <alvise.nicoletti@...> wrote:
                            > All textual datasets must be generated by a "source", and in THIS
                            process
                            > the translation must be putted inside the datasets, from a database.

                            I agree there needs to be some methods of translating without
                            modifying the base LST files. From the discussion, not everyone is
                            convinced of that, but you are on the right path.

                            > However: I'm noone here and I'm tired to lose my time in writing
                            proposals
                            > without being answered.

                            Well, I *am* one of the code monkeys, and I *am* listening. However,
                            to be fair, the code team is spending a LOT of time on fixing bugs in
                            5.12, to get that released. There is no work being done on
                            enhancements. I specifically stated yesterday that I *want* to go
                            back and look at your script and evaluate that.

                            > I'll just translate what I need for me to be translated, as a master
                            of D&D,
                            > and when I will reach that objective I'll just keep my pcgen version
                            to the
                            > one I'm using now.
                            >
                            > Bye

                            I really hope that isn't a "good-bye I'm not coming back"... I too am
                            frustrated that I can't do everything that everyone on PCGen wants -
                            it's disappointing at times... but we *do* hear you, and we *do* need
                            to come back in a few weeks once 5.12 is released to work though the
                            exact mechanisms of internationalization. I really would like the
                            support and help of those here in understanding what you are currently
                            doing and working toward something that can be done in the code and is
                            easy to support in the datasets.

                            TP.
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