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Re: [pcgen_developers] [TM] Re: Problems with templates

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  • Stefan Radermacher
    ... No I m talking about abilities set by the ABILITY tag, also possibly VISION ability). ... Right, I forgot. Can it remove all feats and then still grant a
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
      On Friday 16 October 2009 23:05:13 thpr wrote:

      > > - cannot easily remove selected special abilities
      >
      > Special Abilities meaning SABs?

      No I'm talking about abilities set by the ABILITY tag, also possibly VISION
      ability).

      > > - cannot remove skills and feats
      >
      > Can remove Feats today,

      Right, I forgot. Can it remove all feats and then still grant a new one?

      > Please define what you mean by remove skills? Do you mean remove ranks, or
      > unmake CSKILL, or what effects do you need on skills?

      Specifically, for the skeleton I would need to remove all assigned skill
      points.

      > > Many of these problems can probably be solved with Tom's new architecture
      > Most become a lot easier... some, like the CR, wouldn't even be that hard
      > now, based on the changes I've already made.

      Yeah that was meant to refer to the "replace levels" part, which would
      automatically facilitate some of the others (saves and BAB).

      Stefan.
    • Eddy Anthony
      Hi Stefan, Much of this is also applicable to the RSRD and we have a number of FREQs open for these, I ll see if I can provide some tracker references so we
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
        Hi Stefan,
        Much of this is also applicable to the RSRD and we have a number of
        FREQs open for these, I'll see if I can provide some tracker references
        so we can see what has not been requested yet:

        Code FREQs:

        2786239 Remove Classes, Feats & Skills via Template (Support Undead)
        https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2786239&group_id=25576&atid=384722

        2038187 REMOVE:ABILITY
        https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2038187&group_id=25576&atid=384722
        (This may not really apply as the REMOVE tag doesn't apply to
        automatically granted objects)

        1967577 DEFINESTAT proposal
        https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1967577&group_id=25576&atid=384722

        1986900 DEFINESTAT - additional
        https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1986900&group_id=25576&atid=384722


        These cover a number of the challenges, but not all. The tricky part
        about templates is that users expect that all templates effects are
        removed when the template is removed so with that in mind what we really
        want is to suppress everything the source template says gets removed so
        that it returns when the template object is removed. Here's what's left
        over:

        Setting an absolute CR. So something like DEFINE:STAT for CR but with a
        better name. Do you see the need to bonus the overrided CR?

        A tag to swap out all monster class levels with another class. I like
        this idea, there are a number of problems with the BAB and saves that
        could be dealt with individually but this seems the more straightforward
        approach to it.

        Conditional natural attacks.

        Removing automatic special abilities.


        So off the top of my head is seems that since it's for a template and
        the idea is to suppress certain objects a lot of this might be done with
        one tag:

        SUPPRESS:<object>|<key>,<type>

        Examples:

        SUPPRESS:CLASS|TYPE=[Monster] (suppresses all non-monster classes)
        SUPPRESS:FEAT|ALL
        SUPPRESS:SKILL|ALL
        SUPPRESS:ABILITY|CATEGORY=Special Ability,TYPE=Special Attacks

        For swapping a class maybe:

        EXCHANGECLASS:<original class>|<new class>


        Stefan Radermacher wrote:
        > In working on the Pathfinder Bestiary I found that our template objects lack
        > several features to make some stuff possible. The biggest problems arise with
        > templates that change the creature type, like undead templates.
        >
        > Here's just a list to see what kind of problems I encountered when trying to
        > implement the skeleton template:
        >
        > - cannot set an absolute new CR, especially not one
        > dependent on hit dice.
        >
        > - really change the creature type. The RACETYPE tag
        > really doesn't do the job. We need a tag that can
        > remove all levels of a certain type (e.g. all
        > TYPE=Monster) levels, and replace them with the
        > same amount of another class (in this case Undead).
        >
        > - cannot remove class levels (could be done with a
        > different application of the same tag mentioned
        > above)
        >
        > - cannot set new base saves (could be solved with
        > the class-swapping tag)
        >
        > - cannot conditionally apply new natural weapon
        > (i.e. only if better than preexisting ones),
        > or set the number of natural attacks to the number
        > or hands...
        >
        > - cannot easily remove selected special abilities
        >
        > - cannot lock attribute values to 10
        >
        > - cannot set absolute new BAB (could be solved with
        > the class-swapping tag)
        >
        > - cannot remove skills and feats
        >
        > As you see, it is far from easy to create a useful skeleton template. For now,
        > I'd prefer not to have a template at all in the Pathfinder data set, and have
        > that well-documented, to having some kind of half-assed template that doesn't
        > really do anything useful.
        >
        > Many of these problems can probably be solved with Tom's new architecture
        > sooner or later; maybe Tom can comment on the issues. We'd need to look out
        > how to solve the remaining ones differently.
        >
        > What do you think?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Stefan.
        --
        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
        ~ PCGen Board of Directors
        ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
      • Andrew Maitland
        ... 2880845 Set absolute CR ... 2880846 Replace Levels
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
          thpr wrote:
          Please open separate freqs, not one FREQ with multiple issues.
          
          
          --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
            
          - cannot set an absolute new CR, especially not one
            dependent on hit dice.
              
          FREQ #1: Set absolute CR
            

           2880845 Set absolute CR
            
          - really change the creature type. The RACETYPE tag 
            really doesn't do the job. We need a tag that can
            remove all levels of a certain type (e.g. all 
            TYPE=Monster) levels, and replace them with the
            same amount of another class (in this case Undead).
              
          FREQ #2: Replace Levels
            

           2880846 Replace Levels
            
          - cannot remove class levels (could be done with a 
            different application of the same tag mentioned
            above)
              
          FREQ #3: Remove Class Levels
            

          2880847 Remove Class Levels
            
          - cannot set new base saves (could be solved with 
            the class-swapping tag)
              
          FREQ #4: Alter Base Save Values
            

          2880848 Alter Base Save Values
            
          - cannot conditionally apply new natural weapon 
            (i.e. only if better than preexisting ones),
              
          Ugh, FREQ #5: Conditionally apply natural Weapons
          
            

           2880849 Conditionally apply natural Weapons
            or set the number of natural attacks to the number 
            or hands...
              
          FREQ #6: Set Natural Attacks based on # Hands
            

          2880850 Set Natural Attacks based on # Hands
            
          - cannot easily remove selected special abilities
              
          Special Abilities meaning SABs?
          
            
          - cannot lock attribute values to 10
              
          Exiting FREQ 1967577
          
            
          - cannot set absolute new BAB (could be solved with 
            the class-swapping tag)
              
          FREQ #7: Set absolute BAB
            

           2880851 Set absolute BAB
            
          - cannot remove skills and feats
              
          Can remove Feats today, 
          Remove Ability existing 2038187
          
          Please define what you mean by remove skills?  Do you mean remove ranks, or unmake CSKILL, or what effects do you need on skills?
          
            
          Many of these problems can probably be solved with Tom's new architecture 
              
          Most become a lot easier... some, like the CR, wouldn't even be that hard now, based on the changes I've already made.
          
          TP.
          
          
          
            

          -- 
          
          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors 
          Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        • Andrew Maitland
          ... 2880852 Clarify whether HD:4-5:CR:5 etc adds to CR or replaces ... --
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
            thpr wrote:
            --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
              
            On Friday 16 October 2009 18:57:01 Tir Gwaith wrote:
            
                
            HD:4-5:CR:5  etc..  Or is that still not good enough?  I can't
            remember if that replaces or adds to Race CR.
                  
            I think this just adds, the docs are not really clear.
                
            Adds.  TM, Doc FREQ please.
              

             2880852 Clarify whether HD:4-5:CR:5 etc adds to CR or replaces
              
            - cannot easily remove selected special abilities
                    
            Now that we have things by ABILITies, can we use the REMOVE tag with
            TYPE for all the ones with that type?
                  
            Yes, it is possible but might require lots of additional types depending on 
            which template might want to remove which kinds of abilities.
                
            Give or take that you can only remove FEATs at the moment :)
            
              
            - cannot lock attribute values to 10
                    
            DEFINE:LOCK.  Yes, you can. :)
                  
            Nope, locking to 10 causes a non-attribute.
                
            
            This would be addressed by this FREQ:
            http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1967577&group_id=25576&atid=384722
            
            TP.
            
            
            
              

            -- 
            
            Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors 
            Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
            Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
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