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Re: [pcgen_developers] Re: Advanced Sources - Redesign

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  • Andrew Wilson
    Ah good, in that case I think you ve called it the right thing. andrew
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 22, 2012
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      Ah good, in that case I think you've called it the right thing.

      andrew

      On 21 February 2012 20:29, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
      > Hi Andrew,
      >
      > Yep that is exactly what it is doing :)
      >
      > Cheers,
      > James.
      >
      > On 22/02/2012 3:38 AM Andrew Wilson wrote
      >> To me, install sources implies that the program is going to store them
      >> in a folder somewhere so that they can be loaded.  I.e. it is something
      >> I would expect to do once with a new data source and afterwards it would
      >> be in the file system.
      >>
      >> andrew
      >>
      >> On 21 February 2012 11:29, James Dempsey<jdempsey@...>  wrote:
      >>> Hi Dave,
      >>>
      >>> An interesting idea. I'm inclined to stick with Install as its an action
      >>> most people understand. Given its location, and our use of Add x on the
      >>> other available/selected panels I think Add Sources could be construed
      >>> to be an action on the tables. Maybe Install New Data or Install new
      >>> Sources though...
      >>>
      >>> Cheers,
      >>> James.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> On 21/02/2012 9:53 PM FerretDave wrote
      >>>> +1
      >>>>
      >>>> For clarity, should 'install data' be named 'add sources' ?
      >>>>
      >>>> --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, James Dempsey<jdempsey@...>    wrote:
      >>>>> Hi,
      >>>>>
      >>>>> On 21/02/2012 4:32 AM Stefan Radermacher wrote
      >>>>>> On 20.02.2012 17:47, Eric C Smith wrote:
      >>>>>>> Good question. The mockup doesn't show anything in the "Available
      >>>>>>> Sources" pane and I assumed. likely erroneously, that it would be a tree
      >>>>>>> view. If that was wrong, then I second Stefan's request.
      >>>>>> The Available sources should be a treeview, the selected sources not. Or
      >>>>>> at least that should be the defaults.
      >>>>> Yes the plan was for the available table to be a tree view. The selected
      >>>>> table will likely be a list.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Cheers,
      >>>>> James.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • James Dempsey
      Hi, On 20/02/2012 10:53 PM James Dempsey wrote ... I ve completed the first pass of the new advanced sources tab. You can either get it from the source, or you
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 24, 2012
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        Hi,

        On 20/02/2012 10:53 PM James Dempsey wrote
        > Hi,
        >
        > I've posted a mock-up of the proposed advanced sources tab to the wiki.
        > Does it look like it will satisfy all requirements?
        >
        > http://wiki.pcgen.org/Advanced_Sources

        I've completed the first pass of the new advanced sources tab. You can
        either get it from the source, or you can see it on the wiki link above.
        I've also kicked off an autobuild so that should reflect the new dialog
        in half an hour or so.

        I'll leave the issue http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1290 open for a
        day for feedback and tweaks.

        Cheers,
        James.
      • Andrew Wilson
        Hi James That looks a lot better to me. I have one small quibble, it doesn t seem to indicate what is loaded and what isn t. andrew
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 24, 2012
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          Hi James

          That looks a lot better to me. I have one small quibble, it doesn't seem to
          indicate what is loaded and what isn't.

          andrew

          On 24 February 2012 22:19, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > On 20/02/2012 10:53 PM James Dempsey wrote
          >> Hi,
          >>
          >> I've posted a mock-up of the proposed advanced sources tab to the wiki.
          >> Does it look like it will satisfy all requirements?
          >>
          >> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Advanced_Sources
          >
          > I've completed the first pass of the new advanced sources tab. You can
          > either get it from the source, or you can see it on the wiki link above.
          > I've also kicked off an autobuild  so that should reflect the new dialog
          > in half an hour or so.
          >
          > I'll leave the issue http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1290 open for a
          > day for feedback and tweaks.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > James.
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • James Dempsey
          Hi, Thanks for that feedback Andrew. I ve now completed the task and added these features: * Now uses available/selected layout * Unload sources function added
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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            Hi,

            Thanks for that feedback Andrew.

            I've now completed the task and added these features:
            * Now uses available/selected layout
            * Unload sources function added
            * Optional loaded column added
            * Wired up use advanced sources preference
            * Recalls sources selected in advanced tab for each game mode.
            * If using advanced tab, recalls gamemode and sources used last time.

            Cheers,
            James.

            On 25/02/2012 11:30 AM Andrew Wilson wrote
            > Hi James
            >
            > That looks a lot better to me. I have one small quibble, it doesn't seem to
            > indicate what is loaded and what isn't.
            >
            > andrew
            >
            > On 24 February 2012 22:19, James Dempsey<jdempsey@...> wrote:
            >> Hi,
            >>
            >> On 20/02/2012 10:53 PM James Dempsey wrote
            >>> Hi,
            >>>
            >>> I've posted a mock-up of the proposed advanced sources tab to the wiki.
            >>> Does it look like it will satisfy all requirements?
            >>>
            >>> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Advanced_Sources
            >> I've completed the first pass of the new advanced sources tab. You can
            >> either get it from the source, or you can see it on the wiki link above.
            >> I've also kicked off an autobuild so that should reflect the new dialog
            >> in half an hour or so.
            >>
            >> I'll leave the issue http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/CODE-1290 open for a
            >> day for feedback and tweaks.
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >> James.
          • Stefan Radermacher
            ... That sounds good! Just one question remains: why is this a dialog and not simply integrated into the main frame which basically shows an empty pane anyway?
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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              On 29.02.2012 09:38, James Dempsey wrote:

              > I've now completed the task and added these features:
              > * Now uses available/selected layout
              > * Unload sources function added
              > * Optional loaded column added
              > * Wired up use advanced sources preference
              > * Recalls sources selected in advanced tab for each game mode.
              > * If using advanced tab, recalls gamemode and sources used last time.

              That sounds good! Just one question remains: why is this a dialog and
              not simply integrated into the main frame which basically shows an empty
              pane anyway? What is gained by this design?

              Regards,
              Stefan.
            • James Dempsey
              Hi Stefan, On 29/02/2012 7:56 PM Stefan Radermacher wrote ... In a word, consistency. We now have an integrated means of selecting sources, not two systems
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                Hi Stefan,

                On 29/02/2012 7:56 PM Stefan Radermacher wrote
                > On 29.02.2012 09:38, James Dempsey wrote:
                >
                >> I've now completed the task and added these features:
                >> * Now uses available/selected layout
                >> * Unload sources function added
                >> * Optional loaded column added
                >> * Wired up use advanced sources preference
                >> * Recalls sources selected in advanced tab for each game mode.
                >> * If using advanced tab, recalls gamemode and sources used last time.
                > That sounds good! Just one question remains: why is this a dialog and
                > not simply integrated into the main frame which basically shows an empty
                > pane anyway? What is gained by this design?
                In a word, consistency. We now have an integrated means of selecting
                sources, not two systems that work in different ways.

                Cheers,
                James.
              • Stefan Radermacher
                ... I don t think you quite understood what I meant. I think the dialog as a whole, basic and advanced should be integrated into the main frame. I think there
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                  On 29.02.2012 12:20, James Dempsey wrote:
                  > In a word, consistency. We now have an integrated means of selecting
                  > sources, not two systems that work in different ways.

                  I don't think you quite understood what I meant. I think the dialog as a
                  whole, basic and advanced should be integrated into the main frame. I
                  think there is nothing gained by this being a separate dialog, and in
                  certain use cases it is even a hindrance: for example, I usually load
                  sources with the characters, which means my fist action after the
                  program comes up is to go to the File menu to load a character.
                  Now, I have to cancel out of the dialog first. And since I load existing
                  characters more often than I create new one, this is an annoyance to me.

                  Stefan.
                • Stefan Radermacher
                  And to elaborate on that: another use case is data set development, which means this cycle: load data sets, create or load character, test data set, close
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                    And to elaborate on that: another use case is data set development,
                    which means this cycle: load data sets, create or load character, test
                    data set, close character, unload dataset, edit dataset, start over.

                    With the new dialog, once I close the character the source selection is
                    gone, and I have to manually call up the dialog again to unload the
                    dataset and then load it again. Instead there is an empty screen staring
                    at me, containing nothing except a tiny info box which would even be
                    superfluous if the dialog was integrated into the frame instead.

                    Stefan.
                  • Stefan Radermacher
                    One more thing: the dialog is artificially cramped because it is rather small, which mean the treelist of sources has only 14 rows and makes me scroll quite a
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                      One more thing: the dialog is artificially cramped because it is rather
                      small, which mean the treelist of sources has only 14 rows and makes me
                      scroll quite a lot. If the dialog were integrated, the elements would
                      resize with the main window size, and on a relatively small screen, say
                      1280x1024, I'd get more than double the amount ow rows displayed in the
                      tree-list. Using the fixed-size dialog simply wastes huge amount of
                      screen real estate.

                      Regards,
                      Stefan.
                    • James Dempsey
                      Hi Stefan, We ve already had complaints about there being too many tabs. I strongly prefer to keep the character tabs as character tabs and the sources in a
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                        Hi Stefan,

                        We've already had complaints about there being too many tabs. I strongly
                        prefer to keep the character tabs as character tabs and the sources in a
                        dialog. The old system of having a special first tab caused quite a lot
                        of confusion.

                        I appreciate that this adds an extra step for you, however I think we
                        need to keep a strong focus on the experience for the general user.
                        PCGen's UI has suffered in the past from being a tool made for the
                        experts and thus shutting out average and particularly new users.

                        Cheers,
                        James.

                        On 29/02/2012 10:55 PM Stefan Radermacher wrote
                        > And to elaborate on that: another use case is data set development,
                        > which means this cycle: load data sets, create or load character, test
                        > data set, close character, unload dataset, edit dataset, start over.
                        >
                        > With the new dialog, once I close the character the source selection is
                        > gone, and I have to manually call up the dialog again to unload the
                        > dataset and then load it again. Instead there is an empty screen staring
                        > at me, containing nothing except a tiny info box which would even be
                        > superfluous if the dialog was integrated into the frame instead.
                        >
                        > Stefan.
                        >
                      • Stefan Radermacher
                        ... I don t see a difference to the special first tab we currently have. This one vanishes as soon as a character is opened and reappears when the last
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                          On 29.02.2012 13:05, James Dempsey wrote:
                          > Hi Stefan,
                          >
                          > We've already had complaints about there being too many tabs. I strongly
                          > prefer to keep the character tabs as character tabs and the sources in a
                          > dialog. The old system of having a special first tab caused quite a lot
                          > of confusion.

                          I don't see a difference to the "special first tab" we currently have.
                          This one vanishes as soon as a character is opened and reappears when
                          the last character is closed. The very same could be done with a sources
                          tab.

                          Regards,
                          Stefan.
                        • James Dempsey
                          Hi Stefan, On 29/02/2012 11:01 PM Stefan Radermacher wrote ... Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog can be resized however
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                            Hi Stefan,

                            On 29/02/2012 11:01 PM Stefan Radermacher wrote
                            > One more thing: the dialog is artificially cramped because it is rather
                            > small, which mean the treelist of sources has only 14 rows and makes me
                            > scroll quite a lot. If the dialog were integrated, the elements would
                            > resize with the main window size, and on a relatively small screen, say
                            > 1280x1024, I'd get more than double the amount ow rows displayed in the
                            > tree-list. Using the fixed-size dialog simply wastes huge amount of
                            > screen real estate.

                            Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog
                            can be resized however there was an issue with its behaviour which has
                            now been fixed.

                            I'm off to bed now and will be picking up the work on kits tomorrow night.

                            Cheers,
                            James.
                          • Stefan Radermacher
                            ... The dialog can be resized, but its elements do not resize to fill it. Stefan.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                              On 29.02.2012 13:13, James Dempsey wrote:
                              > Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog
                              > can be resized however there was an issue with its behaviour which has
                              > now been fixed.

                              The dialog can be resized, but its elements do not resize to fill it.

                              Stefan.
                            • Stefan Radermacher
                              ... Ah I didn t see your commit. The dialog will have to remember the resizing, though. Still. I don t like it. At all. Stefan.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                                On 29.02.2012 13:15, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                > On 29.02.2012 13:13, James Dempsey wrote:
                                > > Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog
                                > > can be resized however there was an issue with its behaviour which has
                                > > now been fixed.
                                >
                                > The dialog can be resized, but its elements do not resize to fill it.

                                Ah I didn't see your commit. The dialog will have to remember the
                                resizing, though. Still. I don't like it. At all.

                                Stefan.
                              • joxtur
                                I d like to +1 Stefan s comments. I would prefer to have it integrated into the frame instead of as a dialog. Perhaps there could be a toggle / preference to
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 29, 2012
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                                  I'd like to +1 Stefan's comments. I would prefer to have it integrated into the frame instead of as a dialog.

                                  Perhaps there could be a toggle / preference to control dialog vs integrated look?

                                  --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On 29.02.2012 13:15, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                  > > On 29.02.2012 13:13, James Dempsey wrote:
                                  > > > Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog
                                  > > > can be resized however there was an issue with its behaviour which has
                                  > > > now been fixed.
                                  > >
                                  > > The dialog can be resized, but its elements do not resize to fill it.
                                  >
                                  > Ah I didn't see your commit. The dialog will have to remember the
                                  > resizing, though. Still. I don't like it. At all.
                                  >
                                  > Stefan.
                                  >
                                • FerretDave
                                  +1 for a preference option, I was about to suggest exactly the same thing :-) We can t please everyone all the time, but if we can give people options, we can
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 1, 2012
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                                    +1 for a preference option, I was about to suggest exactly the same thing :-)

                                    We can't please everyone all the time, but if we can give people options, we can try to please a few more...

                                    I liked that initial source tab, it was handy to flick back to during character creation to check why I couldnt find feat or spell X (which often turned out to be in a source I hadn't loaded)

                                    Cheers
                                    D

                                    --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, "joxtur" <joxtur@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'd like to +1 Stefan's comments. I would prefer to have it integrated into the frame instead of as a dialog.
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps there could be a toggle / preference to control dialog vs integrated look?
                                    >
                                    > --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > On 29.02.2012 13:15, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
                                    > > > On 29.02.2012 13:13, James Dempsey wrote:
                                    > > > > Having done the comparison there is no loss of real estate. The dialog
                                    > > > > can be resized however there was an issue with its behaviour which has
                                    > > > > now been fixed.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The dialog can be resized, but its elements do not resize to fill it.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ah I didn't see your commit. The dialog will have to remember the
                                    > > resizing, though. Still. I don't like it. At all.
                                    > >
                                    > > Stefan.
                                    > >
                                    >
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