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Re: [pcgen_developers] Re: Templating Engine [Freemarker Reply]

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  • Andrew Maitland
    Hi, Bump for Stefan ... -- Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing) Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin Unique Title Quick-Silverback
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 8, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,

      Bump for Stefan


      On 6/18/2010 1:52 PM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
      Hi,

      Looks like everyone is in agreement.

      Stefan - How do things look?


      On 6/15/2010 7:07 PM, Tom Parker wrote:
      For what it's worth, I'm good with the discussion so far and in using Freemarker.
      
      I also agree with James that we should use as much of the current OUTPUT token infrastructure as possible... both for past consistency, for testing, and for ensuring that the output system is detached from the PlayerCharacter object (or facade) [don't want tight core/output linkage]
      
      TP.
      --
      Tom Parker
      thpr@... and tppublic@...
      
      
      --- On Sun, 6/13/10, James Dempsey <jdempsey@...> wrote:
      
        
      From: James Dempsey <jdempsey@...>
      Subject: Re: [pcgen_developers] Re: Templating Engine [Freemarker Reply]
      To: pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, June 13, 2010, 7:59 AM
      Hi,
      
      My concept of how this would work is quite different to
      Connor's one :)
      
      The aim would be to utilise the already built output system
      and add a 
      function that can be called from a template (output sheet)
      to allow the 
      existing output tags to be called. This would give us a
      simple 
      change-over and use our existing well tested output code
      base.
      
      So for example we might have
      
      <@pcgen tag="NAME"/> or <@pcgen
      tag="SPELLMEM.0.1.1.1.|NAME|"/>
       
      
      Cheers,
      James.
      
      On 13/06/2010 9:45 PM Andrew Maitland wrote
          
      Hi,
        
      I'm not a developer or coder, so pardon my ignorance
            
      here, but what 
          
      exactly is this "Bean" property of which you speak?
        
      Onto the second part, are you suggesting that the
            
      Templating Engine 
          
      should be developed in tandem with the UI work then as
            
      opposed to 
          
      being tested against the trunk sandbox?
        
      I understand option #2 sounds like being in the UI dev
            
      sandbox would 
          
      be a better idea, but how would option #1 work, would
            
      we be able to 
          
      develop that in the Trunk?
      And playing the Kar devil's advocate, should we
            
      attempt to develop two 
          
      instances using the two methods outlined? I'd think
            
      since we have 
          
      limited Code Hours available, the best theory would be
            
      best to pursue 
          
      and focus solely on that.
        
      James - Oh, yeah, I got responses from all three
            
      developers, one 
          
      response had been diverted to the spam folder, in fact
            
      it was the 
          
      first reply within a few hours of my inquiry. They are
            
      definitely in 
          
      action and support mode.
        
        
      --
      Andrew
      
      
            
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          
      *From:* Connor Petty <mistercpp2000@...>
      *To:* pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com
      *Sent:* Sun, June 13, 2010 1:19:34 AM
      *Subject:* Re: [pcgen_developers] Re: Templating
            
      Engine [Freemarker Reply]
          
      
      I agree. After looking through the all the javadocs
            
      and general 
          
      documentation for both freemarker and velocity,
            
      freemarker has a 
          
      larger feature set. I will say though that velocity's
            
      developer's 
          
      documentation is far more straight forward than
            
      freemarker's 
          
      documentation. So I guess I'll switch my vote to
            
      Freemarker instead :)
          
      While looking investigating both templating engines
            
      its come to my 
          
      attention that we would need to decide the best way to
            
      allow templates 
          
      to access the character internals. The two options are
            
      either 1. have 
          
      specific keys that a template would use to access
            
      aspects of a 
          
      character, "race", "alignment", etc.. or 2. use the
            
      character itself 
          
      and allow the template to retrieve bean properties
            
      from it.
          
      Given the complexity of character information that the
            
      templates will 
          
      probably deal with I'm thinking that option 2 would be
            
      better. If 
          
      that's the case then it looks like a use for the
            
      character facade. 
          
      There are two problems, first is that the character
            
      facade is still in 
          
      development and second is that the character facade is
            
      in the cdomui 
          
      branch. And it might be a little late to say this but
            
      I'm not so sure 
          
      that making a new sandbox based on the trunk is the
            
      best idea when 
          
      trying to develop use of a new templating engine,
            
      especially if it 
          
      might involve recreating something already in
            
      development.
          
      On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:42 PM, James Dempsey 
      <jdempsey@...
            
      <mailto:jdempsey@...>>
      wrote:
          
            
      
           Hi,
      
           I think it is pretty clear
            
      that FreeMarker has the better feature
          
           set.
           My concern was that if we
            
      encountered problems we would have hassles
          
           getting support. The very
            
      swift response to Andrew's query makes
          
           me much
           more confident that we have a
            
      support avenue if needed.
          
           So my vote is to go with the
            
      latest stable version of FreeMarker
          
           (2.3.16)
      
      
      
           Cheers,
           James Dempsey
           PCGen Code SB
      
           On 11/06/2010 9:13 AM Andrew
            
      Maitland wrote
          
           >
           >
           > Hi,
           >
           > (I'm hoping others will
            
      chime in here)
          
           >
           > Oh, and a quick
            
      correction, a portion of the email response is from
          
           > Daniel, the main reply
            
      was sent from Jonathan Revusky.
          
           >
           > Based upon the fine
            
      reading a few points jump out at me that
          
           leads me
           > to change my stance and
            
      cast a vote for Freemarker:
          
           >
           > Error Reporting (Error
            
      reporting is a MUST!)
          
           > Support for
            
      internationalization (A future aspect we are going for)
          
           > Faster Performance based
            
      upon comparisons (we like faster results)
          
           >
           > I'd encourage people to
            
      check the blog as it's more detailed.
          
           >
           >
           >
           > On 6/10/2010 2:23 PM,
            
      Andrew Maitland wrote:
          
           >> Hi Folks,
           >>
           >> I got a reply from
            
      the Freemarker Admin - Daniel Dekany
          
           >>
           >> BEGIN FWD:
           >>
           >> A couple of years
            
      ago, I wrote a response to a javaworld
          
           article that
           >> had made a
            
      ridiculously superficial comparison between
          
           FreeMarker and
           >> Velocity and put it
            
      on our group blog.
          
           >>
           >>
           http://freemarker.blogspot.com/2007/12/velocity-of-freemarker-looking-at-5.html
           >>
           >> Unless something
            
      absolutely dramatic has happened since then in the
          
           >> Velocity camp of
            
      which I am unaware, I don't think there is
          
           hardly any
           >> reasonable FreeMarker
            
      versus Velocity debate to be had. If you
          
           just do
           >> some research using
            
      google, in particular blog entries and
          
           such, you
           >> will see that there
            
      has been (and I think there continues to
          
           be) quite
           >> a bit of migration
            
      from Velocity to FreeMarker and none in the
          
           other
           >> direction. Even OSS
            
      projects that are under the Apache
          
           umbrella, such
           >> as Struts 2 and
            
      OfBiz, tend to use FreeMarker in preference to
          
           >> Velocity. (What does
            
      that tell you?)
          
           >>
           >> What I am kind of
            
      surprised about is that after all these
          
           years, that
           >> these are still
            
      considered to be the two main contenders out there.
          
           >> But, if the
            
      discussion is being framed as FreeMarker versus
          
           Velocity,
           >> I don't think there
            
      is much of a discussion to be had. I
          
           honestly do
           >> not believe that
            
      anybody has done a halfway diligent comparison and
          
           >> decided that Velocity
            
      was the right choice.
          
           >>
           >> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010
            
      at 10:35 PM, Daniel Dekany
          
           <ddekany@...
            
      <mailto:ddekany%40freemail.hu>> wrote:
          
           >> > This is not
            
      (only) my duty to answer, so I forward the
          
           question to the
           >> > developer list.
            
      I hope it's not a problem. (So whoever
          
           answers, use
           >> > "reply to
            
      all".)
          
           >> >
           >> > As of the
            
      project activity, FreeMarker is maintained for sure
          
           (2.3.x).
           >> > OTOH it has a
            
      working yet uncompleted 3.0 version in the
          
           trunk whose
           >> > development
            
      stalled since a good while, and I can't tell if
          
           when it
           >> > will move again.
            
      There is also a 2.4 branch now (mostly due
          
           to changes
           >> > needed for GAE
            
      compatibility), which is much more backward
          
           compatible
           >> > with 2.3. I'm
            
      quite certain that branch will go ahead if 3.0
          
           will not.
           >>
           >> I am actually
            
      becoming more or less confident that 3.0 will go
          
           >> forward. I committed
            
      some code for the first time in a nearly 2
          
           years
           >> the other day. :-)
           >>
           >> But, actually, in the
            
      context of this conversation, where the
          
           question
           >> is being framed as
            
      FreeMarker versus Velocity, I think it hardly
          
           >> matters. I am pretty
            
      certain that the better choice would be
          
           >> FreeMarker even under
            
      the worst case scenario that no further
          
           >> development ever
            
      occurs on *any* version of FreeMarker. People
          
           can see
           >> my obvious biases and
            
      take them into account, but it is my
          
           completely
           >> honest view that
            
      going with Velocity is a decision that you
          
           would live
           >> to regret. Aside from
            
      the fact that it is underpowered and
          
           >> underfeatured (unless
            
      something really dramatic has happened in the
          
           >> last few years, and
            
      if so, correct me) but even besides that, the
          
           >> features it does have
            
      are implemented in a very sloppy, careless
          
           >> manner that is pretty
            
      much bound to drive you crazy unless you are
          
           >> only using it in the
            
      most trivial kind of way. Just look at some of
          
           >> the blog entries I
            
      cite in the above-linked article.
          
           >>
           >> I hope that's
            
      helpful.
          
           >>
           >> >
           >> > As of which
            
      project to use, first of all you should consider
          
           where the
           >> > two projects
            
      stand right now. Then you can guess how many active
          
           >> > development
            
      Velocity needs to achieve the feature set or
          
           stability of
           >> > FreeMarker, or
            
      if how much will it follow the direction of
          
           FreeMarker
           >> > anyway.
           >>
           >> Is there any serious
            
      development on Velocity? I haven't looked
          
           at it
           >> for at least a couple
            
      of years, but just observing the culture
          
           there,
           >> there would have had
            
      to be some kind of revolution, it seems. Very
          
           >> unlikely. Now, as for
            
      people maybe dismissing my comments I am
          
           fully
           >> aware that some
            
      people think it is so terribly wrong for me to
          
           bash a
           >> competing product,
            
      and will dismiss my comments as being sour
          
           grapes
           >> or whatever. But, you
            
      can look into the issue. I think that if
          
           you do,
           >> you'll basically just
            
      end up seeing that I'm just telling the
          
           truth. I
           >> really would prefer
            
      for Velocity to be a serious competing product
          
           >> that is worthy of
            
      respect. But... it is not... :-(
          
           >>
           >> JR
           >>
           >> >
           >> >
           >> > Thursday, June
            
      10, 2010, 8:56:26 PM,
          
           amaitland@...
       
            
         <mailto:amaitland%40users.sourceforge.net>
      wrote:
          
           >> >
           >> >> Message body
            
      follows:
          
           >> >>
           >> >> Hi,
           >> >>
           >> >> My name is
            
      Andrew, I'm with the PCGen Project. We are
          
           >> >> looking at
            
      Velocity and Freemarker to see which Template
          
           >> >> Engine would
            
      support our needs. However, the majority want
          
           >> >> to go with
            
      an active development, and it seems Freemarker
          
           >> >> has stopped
            
      major development. Do you have any plans to get
          
           >> >> more active
            
      in the near future or should we use Velocity?
          
           >> >>
           >> >> --
           >> >>
           >> >>
           >> >
           >> > --
           >> > Best regards,
           >> > Daniel Dekany
           >> >
           >> >
            
      _______________________________________________
          
           >> > FreeMarker-devel
            
      mailing list
          
           >> > FreeMarker-devel@...
       
            
         <mailto:FreeMarker-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net>
          
           >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freemarker-devel
           >> >
           >>
           >>
           >> --
           >> Andrew Maitland
            
      (LegacyKing)
          
           >> Admin Silverback -
            
      PCGen Board of Directors
          
           >> Data Chimp, Docs
            
      Tamarin
          
           >> Unique Title
            
      "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          
           >> Unique Title "The
            
      Torturer of PCGen"
          
           >>
           >>
           >>
           >>
           >> On 6/10/2010 12:06
            
      PM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
          
           >>> Hi,
           >>>
           >>> I just checked
            
      out Freemarker SF site... they have activity, but
          
           >>> from what I've
            
      sampled it's only support for the eclipse
          
           plugin, no
           >>> core work is
            
      being done.
          
           >>>
           >>> I've sent a
            
      message to all three developers and hopefully I'll
          
           get
           >>> at least a reply
            
      from one of them soon.
          
           >>>
           >>> I've almost
            
      finished porting Code over (Doing it piece meal is a
          
           >>> LONG process...
            
      and even then I'm exceeding the message size :( )
          
           >>>
           >>>
           >>> On 6/10/2010 8:49
            
      AM, Andrew Maitland wrote:
          
           >>>> Hi,
           >>>>
           >>>> I've gotten
            
      the sandbox set up; I think Stefan decided to go
          
           with
           >>>> the active
            
      Velocity. I can email the Freemarker guys to see
          
           what is
           >>>> up, but the
            
      lack of activity on the main page would indicate
          
           to me
           >>>> that nothing
            
      new has happened in a long while.
          
           >>>>
           >>>>
           >>>> On 6/8/2010
            
      2:09 AM, karianna03 wrote:
          
           >>>>>
            
      Freemarker was in an interesting state last time I checked
          
           with them, the 3 core
            
      committers were somewhat at odds with
          
           eachother about the direction
            
      Freemarker should go in, I'm not
          
           sure if that's been resolved.
           >>>>>
           >>>>> Stefan
            
      should probably contact them directly again.
          
           >>>>>
           >>>>> K
           >>>>>
           >>>>> --- In pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com
       
            
         <mailto:pcgen_developers%40yahoogroups.com>,
      Connor Petty
          
           <mistercpp2000@...>
            
      wrote:
          
           >>>>>
           >>>>>>
            
      Actually from what I can tell Freemarker is still active,
          
           their sourceforge
           >>>>>> page
            
      shows commits from only 15 hours ago.
          
           >>>>>>
           >>>>>> On
            
      Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Andrew Maitland
          
           <drew0500@...> wrote:
           >>>>>>
           >>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      Hi,
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      Yup, it's claim is that it's an improvement over
          
           Freemarker and
           >>>>>>>
            
      incorporating Freemarker and Velocity stuff.
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      Freemarker has also been out of activity for quite a bit.
          
           Which means we
           >>>>>>>
            
      should likely go with Velocity. The plugins seem very
          
           nice... one that let's
           >>>>>>>
            
      you preview the output sounds really neat.
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      On 6/7/2010 3:02 PM, James Dempsey wrote:
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      Hi.
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>> I
            
      think we can discount that one the last activity was in
          
           October 2008.
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      Cheers,
          
           >>>>>>>
            
      James Dempsey
          
           >>>>>>>
            
      PCGen Code SB
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
            
      On 8 June 2010 03:23, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...>
      wrote:
          
           >>>>>>>
           >>>>>>>
       
            
         >>>>>>>> And just
      to throw a wrench into the works...
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/zipscript/
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> Cheers,
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> --
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> Andrew
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
      ------------------------------
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> *From:*
      Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> *To:*
      PCGen Developers <pcgen_developers@yahoogroups.com
          
       
            
         <mailto:pcgen_developers%40yahoogroups.com>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> *Sent:*
      Mon, June 7, 2010 10:14:08 AM
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
      *Subject:* [pcgen_developers] Templating Engine
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> Hi
      Folks,
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> I'd like
      to jumpstart the discussion for a Templating
          
           Engine. Our two
       
            
         >>>>>>>> choices
      are Freemarker and Velocity. Stefan is taking a
          
           look at both
       
            
         >>>>>>>> engines,
      but the general feeling is we should go with the
          
           one that has
       
            
         >>>>>>>> active
      development - which is Velocity. Velocity has a
          
           nice list of editor
       
            
         >>>>>>>> plugins
      to support it as well :)
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/velocity/VelocityEditors
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> Of Note
      this has support for Eclipse Plugins, and
          
           IntelliJ IDEA two of our
       
            
         >>>>>>>> more
      common IDEs on the Code Team.
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
      Freemarker - http://freemarker.org/
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> and a
      list of editors (which has the same support, plus
          
           some like
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
      Netbeans.)
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> http://freemarker.org/editors.html
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> This is
      of benefit for the OS Team which does require
          
           Code Man Hours to
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
      implement.
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>>
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> Why is
      this important -
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> #1 - It
      works towards reducing the number of CSHEETs we
          
           need to implement
       
            
         >>>>>>>> a simple
      Color Scheme
          
       
            
         >>>>>>>> #2 - It
      allows us a greater ability to customize the
          
           Character Sheets
       
            
         >>>>>>>> without
      requiring the people to be fo, xml and xslt
          


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