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Re: [pcgen] [bump] Re: lycanthrope

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  • Ricky
    a week without response... no one can tell if somewhere there is an error of pcgen or mine or something? Ricky ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 10, 2009
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      a week without response... no one can tell if somewhere there is an error of pcgen or mine or something?

      Ricky

      ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###



      ________________________________
      Da: Ricky <iainuki@...>
      A: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Inviato: Lunedì 5 gennaio 2009, 13:17:49
      Oggetto: Re: [pcgen] Re: lycanthrope

      i didn't explain well: "weretiger" and "natural lycanthrope" are chosen in the popup chooser when select the "lycanthrope" template.

      Ricky
      ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###

      ________________________________
      Da: Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@...>
      A: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Inviato: Lunedì 5 gennaio 2009, 12:20:58
      Oggetto: [pcgen] Re: lycanthrope

      Hmm, don't have my books on me, does anyone know if adding the Natural
      Lycanthorpe and the specific type of lycanthorpe is 'correct' in this
      case?

      K

      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Ricky <iainuki@...> wrote:
      >
      > using pcgen 5.15.9, in a clean folder under ubuntu hardy
      > with "java -version":
      > java version "1.6.0_07"
      > Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_07-b06)
      > Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 10.0-b23, mixed mode, sharing)
      >
      > and loading only Srd35 for game master (only one error
      "Unconstructed Reference: SubClass Wizard Wizard") , create a new
      charachter with all 10 in stats, true neutral, "human" in race subtab.
      then in template subtab choose "Lycanthrope", "weretiger" and "Natual
      lycanthrope". So, in the feats subtab "Alertness" and "Iron Will"
      appears two times.
      > this strangeness gives +4 on Will saves, and +4 on spot and listen
      abilities instead a normal +2.
      >
      > another thing is that "Skill info" of Spot and Listen says "PC
      Modifier: +2[Alertness]+1[STAT]" but the Modifier column say +5.
      >
      > i missed something or is a bug?
      >
      > thankyou
      > Ricky
      > ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >



      ------------------------------------

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      ------------------------------------

      PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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      PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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    • Michael W. Fender
      Accessing archive from Ricky... Archive found in file 9270.27586.4727 ... Oh, shoot, I overlooked this myself. Went to test it and had a system bug. Anyway...
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 10, 2009
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        Accessing archive from Ricky...
        Archive found in file 9270.27586.4727

        > a week without response... no one can tell if somewhere there is an error
        > of pcgen or mine or something?

        Oh, shoot, I overlooked this myself. Went to test it and had a system bug.
        Anyway...

        Test subject:
        TN Human Fighter (1)
        All stats 10.
        Adding Lycanthrope template, selecting Weretiger, selecting Natural
        Lycanthrope...

        Well, not only is he right, but there's no reason he should be getting 2
        Alertness or Iron Will feats. The Lycanthrope template grants Iron Will as a
        VFEAT once, and the Weretiger template grants Alertness as a VFEAT once.
        Nowhere else does it add those in. And not only is it being granted twice,
        but each is being added once as a Virtual feat and once as a Automatic feat.

        Debug says only this about Alertness:
        17:08:24.675 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Lycanthrope :
        2.0 : STAT.WIS
        17:08:24.677 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Iron Will :
        2.0 : CHECKS.WILL
        17:08:24.679 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
        2.0 : SKILL.LISTEN
        17:08:24.736 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
        2.0 : SKILL.SPOT
        17:08:24.737 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Iron Will :
        2.0 : CHECKS.WILL
        17:08:24.738 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
        2.0 : SKILL.LISTEN
        17:08:24.739 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
        2.0 : SKILL.SPOT

        It's adding both in. The file for the RSRD feats doesn't expressly forbid
        stacking or multiple selections for Alertness or Iron Will, and since the
        bonus is untyped, it'll alway stack.

        Can I get some more input on this as to whether we have a code bug or a LST
        bog? Because something's definitely not right here.

        And Ricky, thanks for your patience. I don't think anyone meant to leave you
        hanging. And thanks again for the heads up.
        --
        Fluxxdog

        The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
        think.
      • Andrew Maitland
        Hi Ricky, Sorry about the delayed replies. Do you use any IM client? It would be easier for me to talk to you direct then on the Y! groups (at work, so it s
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 10, 2009
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          Hi Ricky,

          Sorry about the delayed replies.

          Do you use any IM client? It would be easier for me to talk to you direct then on the Y! groups (at work, so it's easier to talk real time).

          I'll take a look and see what I can figure out.

          Email me direct off the groups - drew0500@...

          Andrew Maitland
          Admin Silverback


          ________________________________
          From: Ricky <iainuki@...>
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 10:47:59 AM
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] [bump] Re: lycanthrope

          a week without response... no one can tell if somewhere there is an error of pcgen or mine or something?

          Ricky

          ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###



          ________________________________
          Da: Ricky <iainuki@...>
          A: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Inviato: Lunedì 5 gennaio 2009, 13:17:49
          Oggetto: Re: [pcgen] Re: lycanthrope

          i didn't explain well: "weretiger" and "natural lycanthrope" are chosen in the popup chooser when select the "lycanthrope" template.

          Ricky
          ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###

          ________________________________
          Da: Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@...>
          A: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Inviato: Lunedì 5 gennaio 2009, 12:20:58
          Oggetto: [pcgen] Re: lycanthrope

          Hmm, don't have my books on me, does anyone know if adding the Natural
          Lycanthorpe and the specific type of lycanthorpe is 'correct' in this
          case?

          K

          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Ricky <iainuki@...> wrote:
          >
          > using pcgen 5.15.9, in a clean folder under ubuntu hardy
          > with "java -version":
          >  java version "1.6.0_07"
          >  Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_07-b06)
          >  Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 10.0-b23, mixed mode, sharing)
          >
          > and loading only Srd35 for game master (only one error
          "Unconstructed Reference: SubClass Wizard Wizard") , create a new
          charachter with all 10 in stats, true neutral, "human" in race subtab.
          then in template subtab choose "Lycanthrope", "weretiger" and "Natual
          lycanthrope". So, in the feats subtab "Alertness" and "Iron Will"
          appears two times.
          > this strangeness gives +4 on Will saves, and +4 on spot and listen
          abilities instead a normal +2.
          >
          > another thing is that "Skill info" of Spot and Listen says "PC
          Modifier: +2[Alertness]+1[STAT]" but the Modifier column say +5.
          >
          > i missed something or is a bug?
          >
          > thankyou
          > Ricky
          > ### the truth is in the eye of the beholder ###
          >
          >
          >
          >     
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          ------------------------------------

          PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
          PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
          PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
          PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/Yahoo! Groups Links




               

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          ------------------------------------

          PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
          PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
          PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
          PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
          PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/Yahoo! Groups Links




               

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          ------------------------------------

          PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
          PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
          PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andrew Maitland
          (I hate checking email at work, threading is so much nicer.) Michael, I d classify this as a Code Bug, due to the recent token work and massive changes. If the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 10, 2009
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            (I hate checking email at work, threading is so much nicer.)

            Michael, I'd classify this as a Code Bug, due to the recent token work and massive changes. If the lst doesn't have "two" of anything being pulled up then it sounds like a code bug.

            Also, Alertness and Iron Will should NOT be stacking, even if taken as virtual and normal or automatic. They are the same and should just overwrite each other. This is definitely another 'bug' of the code.

            Also, did you run the latest build against this behavior? Tom and James have committed several fixes along this related path.

            -Andrew Maitland
            Admin Silverback




            ________________________________
            From: Michael W. Fender <fluxxdog@...>
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:19:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] [bump] Re: lycanthrope

            Accessing archive from Ricky...
            Archive found in file 9270.27586.4727

            > a week without response... no one can tell if somewhere there is an error
            > of pcgen or mine or something?

            Oh, shoot, I overlooked this myself.  Went to test it and had a system bug. 
            Anyway...

            Test subject:
            TN Human Fighter (1)
            All stats 10.
            Adding Lycanthrope template, selecting Weretiger, selecting Natural
            Lycanthrope...

            Well, not only is he right, but there's no reason he should be getting 2
            Alertness or Iron Will feats.  The Lycanthrope template grants Iron Will as a
            VFEAT once, and the Weretiger template grants Alertness as a VFEAT once. 
            Nowhere else does it add those in.  And not only is it being granted twice,
            but each is being added once as a Virtual feat and once as a Automatic feat.

            Debug says only this about Alertness:
            17:08:24.675 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Lycanthrope :
            2.0 : STAT.WIS
            17:08:24.677 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Iron Will :
            2.0 : CHECKS.WILL
            17:08:24.679 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
            2.0 : SKILL.LISTEN
            17:08:24.736 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
            2.0 : SKILL.SPOT
            17:08:24.737 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Iron Will :
            2.0 : CHECKS.WILL
            17:08:24.738 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
            2.0 : SKILL.LISTEN
            17:08:24.739 FINER AWT-EventQueue-1 PlayerCharacter:12908 BONUS: Alertness :
            2.0 : SKILL.SPOT

            It's adding both in.  The file for the RSRD feats doesn't expressly forbid
            stacking or multiple selections for Alertness or Iron Will, and since the
            bonus is untyped, it'll alway stack.

            Can I get some more input on this as to whether we have a code bug or a LST
            bog?  Because something's definitely not right here.

            And Ricky, thanks for your patience.  I don't think anyone meant to leave you
            hanging.  And thanks again for the heads up.
            --
            Fluxxdog

            The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
            think.


            ------------------------------------

            PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
            PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
            PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
            PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
            PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/Yahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael W. Fender
            Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland... Archive found in file 15857.10093.2145 ... I double checked and ran a clean build just to be sure. As of r8964, we
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 10, 2009
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              Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland...
              Archive found in file 15857.10093.2145

              > (I hate checking email at work, threading is so much nicer.)
              >
              > Michael, I'd classify this as a Code Bug, due to the recent token work and
              > massive changes. If the lst doesn't have "two" of anything being pulled up
              > then it sounds like a code bug.
              >
              > Also, Alertness and Iron Will should NOT be stacking, even if taken as
              > virtual and normal or automatic. They are the same and should just
              > overwrite each other. This is definitely another 'bug' of the code.
              >
              > Also, did you run the latest build against this behavior? Tom and James
              > have committed several fixes along this related path.

              I double checked and ran a clean build just to be sure.

              As of r8964, we got a bug. I've commented on the report you made and I've
              also opened another tracker for a related (but separate) issue.
              --
              Fluxxdog

              The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
              think.
            • Andrew Maitland
              Interesting results... VFEAT is acting up. I see both an automatic and virtual version. However, when I change the VFEAT to ABILITY:FEAT|VIRTUAL| it works as
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 11, 2009
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                Interesting results... VFEAT is acting up. I see both an automatic and
                virtual version. However, when I change the VFEAT to
                ABILITY:FEAT|VIRTUAL| it works as expected. Very odd.

                I spoke to Ricky and let him know of this workaround until this bug is
                squashed.

                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



                Michael W. Fender wrote:
                > Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland...
                > Archive found in file 15857.10093.2145
                >
                >
                >> (I hate checking email at work, threading is so much nicer.)
                >>
                >> Michael, I'd classify this as a Code Bug, due to the recent token work and
                >> massive changes. If the lst doesn't have "two" of anything being pulled up
                >> then it sounds like a code bug.
                >>
                >> Also, Alertness and Iron Will should NOT be stacking, even if taken as
                >> virtual and normal or automatic. They are the same and should just
                >> overwrite each other. This is definitely another 'bug' of the code.
                >>
                >> Also, did you run the latest build against this behavior? Tom and James
                >> have committed several fixes along this related path.
                >>
                >
                > I double checked and ran a clean build just to be sure.
                >
                > As of r8964, we got a bug. I've commented on the report you made and I've
                > also opened another tracker for a related (but separate) issue.
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael W. Fender
                Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland... Archive found in file 26261.18122.6603 ... I think it may be just VFEAT in templates. Monks get feats as VIRTUAL
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 11, 2009
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                  Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland...
                  Archive found in file 26261.18122.6603

                  > Interesting results... VFEAT is acting up. I see both an automatic and
                  > virtual version. However, when I change the VFEAT to
                  > ABILITY:FEAT|VIRTUAL| it works as expected. Very odd.

                  I think it may be just VFEAT in templates. Monks get feats as VIRTUAL feats,
                  but I haven't seen this problem recently. Double checked, and he only gets
                  the +4 bonus from a VIRTUAL Improved Grapple feat. Though I ran into another
                  bug...

                  What I had done was make a first level Fighter, then add the Lycanthrope
                  template of Weretiger. This gives him 6 levels of Animal. I already had it
                  open and added the monk level when it popped up and asked me what stat should
                  be increased. That's when I realized that it never did that when I applied
                  the Weretiger. Another glitch in the system? Because I double checked the
                  Lycanthrope entry in the RSRD and found this:

                  "In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase
                  by virtue of its extra Hit Dice."

                  ...and 6 extra HD guarantees at least 1 ability increase.
                  --
                  Fluxxdog

                  The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
                  think.
                • Andrew Maitland
                  Things added with ADD:PCLEVEL or the like ignore the leveling system of Stat Increases. I noticed the Choice(s) from templates don t show up in the template
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 11, 2009
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                    Things added with ADD:PCLEVEL or the like ignore the leveling system of
                    Stat Increases.

                    I noticed the Choice(s) from templates don't show up in the template
                    section, but again, they do have VISIBLE:NO

                    As to the stat gain, that can be done easy enough using an ability pool.

                    Eddy - Do you approve of adding an ABILITYPOOL for the Lycanthrope Stat
                    Increase?

                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



                    Michael W. Fender wrote:
                    > Accessing archive from Andrew Maitland...
                    > Archive found in file 26261.18122.6603
                    >
                    >
                    >> Interesting results... VFEAT is acting up. I see both an automatic and
                    >> virtual version. However, when I change the VFEAT to
                    >> ABILITY:FEAT|VIRTUAL| it works as expected. Very odd.
                    >>
                    >
                    > I think it may be just VFEAT in templates. Monks get feats as VIRTUAL feats,
                    > but I haven't seen this problem recently. Double checked, and he only gets
                    > the +4 bonus from a VIRTUAL Improved Grapple feat. Though I ran into another
                    > bug...
                    >
                    > What I had done was make a first level Fighter, then add the Lycanthrope
                    > template of Weretiger. This gives him 6 levels of Animal. I already had it
                    > open and added the monk level when it popped up and asked me what stat should
                    > be increased. That's when I realized that it never did that when I applied
                    > the Weretiger. Another glitch in the system? Because I double checked the
                    > Lycanthrope entry in the RSRD and found this:
                    >
                    > "In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase
                    > by virtue of its extra Hit Dice."
                    >
                    > ...and 6 extra HD guarantees at least 1 ability increase.
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    ... I suspect that this is this way because the tags which grant those levels come from a template as the main characteristic of a template is that when you
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 11, 2009
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                      Michael W. Fender scribed:

                      > What I had done was make a first level Fighter, then add the Lycanthrope
                      > template of Weretiger. This gives him 6 levels of Animal. I already had it
                      > open and added the monk level when it popped up and asked me what stat should
                      > be increased. That's when I realized that it never did that when I applied
                      > the Weretiger. Another glitch in the system? Because I double checked the
                      > Lycanthrope entry in the RSRD and found this:
                      >
                      > "In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase
                      > by virtue of its extra Hit Dice."
                      >
                      > ...and 6 extra HD guarantees at least 1 ability increase.

                      I suspect that this is this way because the tags which grant those levels
                      come from a template as the main characteristic of a template is that when
                      you remove it everything it grants should come with it.

                      In my mind the best solution would be a code FREQ, currently if you remove
                      levels which granted you ability bumps those come off as well, if the
                      ADDLEVEL tag allowed standard stat bump that went away when the templates
                      were removed that would be ideal.

                      Barring that I agree that an ability pool with some abilities to grant stat
                      bumps is the best data solution.
                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                      ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
                    • Eddy Anthony
                      ... See my other reply but I wonder why the ADDLEVEL tag does that. I don t see any game mechanical reason why to have it that way. ... -- ~ Eddy Anthony
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 11, 2009
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                        Andrew Maitland scribed:

                        > Things added with ADD:PCLEVEL or the like ignore the leveling system of
                        > Stat Increases.

                        See my other reply but I wonder why the ADDLEVEL tag does that. I don't see
                        any game mechanical reason why to have it that way.

                        > I noticed the Choice(s) from templates don't show up in the template
                        > section, but again, they do have VISIBLE:NO
                        >
                        > As to the stat gain, that can be done easy enough using an ability pool.
                        >
                        > Eddy - Do you approve of adding an ABILITYPOOL for the Lycanthrope Stat
                        > Increase?

                        --
                        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                        ~ PCGen Board of Directors
                        ~ Content Silverback, Chair Second
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