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Re: [Fwd: Re: [pcgen] Difference between carried and in a container?]

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  • Andrew Maitland
    I like the mantra - Keep it simple. At that point it is up to the player to apply the correct bonus/penalty during game play - I m going to use this item, and
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 31, 2008
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      I like the mantra - Keep it simple. At that point it is up to the player to apply the correct bonus/penalty during game play - I'm going to use this item, and I should know it gives a penalty (See, keep it simple). Seriously, we have the temp mods for in use/at the table where the player is using the program real time/table side, but some people just print up a copy of the pdf and go from there (especially groups where the GM handles the player info and prints up the sheets for use at the game).

      PCGen is meant to facilitate the ease of character creation and maintenance. I think we've done an excellent job there.

      I think Eddy's suggestion works.

      BTW - Happy New Year's Everyone!!!

      -Andrew (At work)




      ________________________________
      From: Michael W. Fender <fluxxdog@...>
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:58:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [pcgen] Difference between carried and in a container?]

      Accessing archive from "Eddy Anthony"...
      Archive found in file
      > Jeff Miller scribed:
      > > Then maybe have an additional equipment slot for tools.
      >
      > Why? The rules apply no restrictions on how many may be equipped. You can
      > equip as many as you like and this does not effect in any way how many
      > other "slotted" items you can equip.
      >
      > When an item does not use a specific slot type it does not take up any
      > slots, it's just "Equipped" in an abstract way. You could say your tools
      > are "equipped" in my pocket, ready for me to use, it doesn't have to mean
      > they are in my hand at all times.

      That's another problem, though.  They're not.  Having the penalty taken away
      because you have tools makes sense.  You have something to work with.  Having
      the bonus automatically applied just because you have them is tricky because
      there's no guarantee that you'll use them.  I'm gonna tap Complete Adventurer
      here: Longspoon thief tools.  Using them applies a -2 penalty.  You have the
      masterwork and the longspoons, which do you use?  Either way, you have thief
      tools, so no -2 penalty for lack of tools, but which modifier gets applied? 
      However, this alone advocates the use of a Temp Bonus.

      --
      Fluxxdog

      The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
      think.


      ------------------------------------

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    • Marc
      I am a PCGen newbie and the one who initially posted the question. Although I am convinced there s a good reason why the software designers decided there d be
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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        I am a PCGen newbie and the one who initially posted the question.

        Although I am convinced there's a good reason why the software designers decided
        there'd be a difference between carried, equipped and in a container, I have a feeling it
        creates more problems than it solves.

        As I said, I am new to PCGen: in fact, I have only entered the stats of the PCs and created
        a few opponents for our next session. I wanted to experiment with GMGen (mainly running
        combat through the Initiative tab). Since my players want character sheets printed in
        French, I am not planning to use PCGen for printing character sheets but it will be the
        DM's (and therefore official) source of PCs data.

        As a pen and paper DM, I consider that every PC automatically uses any object he has in
        his possession when he has a chance to do so. A PC who carries a set of Thieves' tools
        (masterwork or not) in a belt pouch will automatically take them in the pouch when he
        needs them: I shouldn't have to access the PCs inventory tab and change the location of
        the tools.

        Likewise, it would be somewhat of an anti-climax to pose the game and switch every bow
        to carried and every melee weapon to equipped once the Uruk-Hai are done climbing the
        walls and have entered Helm's Deep.

        I think it would be simpler if things were simply carried (directly, in a specific slot, over a
        number of slots or in a container) or not carried.

        Cheers,
        Marc

        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
        >
        > I like the mantra - Keep it simple. At that point it is up to the player to apply the correct
        bonus/penalty during game play - I'm going to use this item, and I should know it gives a
        penalty (See, keep it simple). Seriously, we have the temp mods for in use/at the table
        where the player is using the program real time/table side, but some people just print up
        a copy of the pdf and go from there (especially groups where the GM handles the player
        info and prints up the sheets for use at the game).
        >
        > PCGen is meant to facilitate the ease of character creation and maintenance. I think
        we've done an excellent job there.
        >
        > I think Eddy's suggestion works.
        >
        > BTW - Happy New Year's Everyone!!!
        >
        > -Andrew (At work)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Michael W. Fender <fluxxdog@...>
        > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:58:14 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [pcgen] Difference between carried and in a container?]
        >
        > Accessing archive from "Eddy Anthony"...
        > Archive found in file
        > > Jeff Miller scribed:
        > > > Then maybe have an additional equipment slot for tools.
        > >
        > > Why? The rules apply no restrictions on how many may be equipped. You can
        > > equip as many as you like and this does not effect in any way how many
        > > other "slotted" items you can equip.
        > >
        > > When an item does not use a specific slot type it does not take up any
        > > slots, it's just "Equipped" in an abstract way. You could say your tools
        > > are "equipped" in my pocket, ready for me to use, it doesn't have to mean
        > > they are in my hand at all times.
        >
        > That's another problem, though.  They're not.  Having the penalty taken away
        > because you have tools makes sense.  You have something to work with.  Having
        > the bonus automatically applied just because you have them is tricky because
        > there's no guarantee that you'll use them.  I'm gonna tap Complete Adventurer
        > here: Longspoon thief tools.  Using them applies a -2 penalty.  You have the
        > masterwork and the longspoons, which do you use?  Either way, you have thief
        > tools, so no -2 penalty for lack of tools, but which modifier gets applied? 
        > However, this alone advocates the use of a Temp Bonus.
        >
        > --
        > Fluxxdog
        >
        > The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
        > think.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
        > PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
        > PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
        > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
        > PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/Yahoo!
        Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Barak
        ... Ah, but that s convenient for you and the assumptions you make/way you play, not necessarily everyone else. We ve been at this several years now and the
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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          > -----Original Message-----

          > I think it would be simpler if things were simply carried (directly, in
          > a specific slot, over a
          > number of slots or in a container) or not carried.

          Ah, but that's convenient for you and the assumptions you make/way you play,
          not necessarily everyone else. We've been at this several years now and the
          current setup is the best compromise achievable. There are some that hand
          wave such things just as you do... there are others that do not. The split
          (from previous discussions) is about 50/50.

          The other thing you need to remember is that PCGen is, first and foremost, a
          PC *maintenance* program. It was not meant, when conceived, to be used as
          an "at the table" aid. We have added things over time to make it more user
          friendly for that purpose, but that is *not* PCGen's main intent or goal.

          Oh, and as far as weapons go, they give the correct numbers in the block
          whether equipped or not. There is no need to change how you have them
          equipped. Just pick the correct section for how you are attacking and use
          the numbers there.

          Barak
        • Marc Philips
          Thanks for the explanation ... I understand that there s a lot more to PCGen than I realized so far and also a huge user base with different opinions. I also
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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            Thanks for the explanation ... I understand that there's a lot more to PCGen
            than I realized so far and also a huge user base with different opinions.
            I also wanted to let you guys know that it's a great software and that you
            do support far better than many people who do that for a living.

            Cheers,
            Marc

            2009/1/3 Barak <barak@...>

            > > -----Original Message-----
            >
            > > I think it would be simpler if things were simply carried (directly, in
            > > a specific slot, over a
            > > number of slots or in a container) or not carried.
            >
            > Ah, but that's convenient for you and the assumptions you make/way you
            > play,
            > not necessarily everyone else. We've been at this several years now and the
            > current setup is the best compromise achievable. There are some that hand
            > wave such things just as you do... there are others that do not. The split
            > (from previous discussions) is about 50/50.
            >
            > The other thing you need to remember is that PCGen is, first and foremost,
            > a
            > PC *maintenance* program. It was not meant, when conceived, to be used as
            > an "at the table" aid. We have added things over time to make it more user
            > friendly for that purpose, but that is *not* PCGen's main intent or goal.
            >
            > Oh, and as far as weapons go, they give the correct numbers in the block
            > whether equipped or not. There is no need to change how you have them
            > equipped. Just pick the correct section for how you are attacking and use
            > the numbers there.
            >
            > Barak
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ovka
            ... I m not sure I agree with this. It was the best compromise that anyone came up with at the time it was implemented. That doesn t necessarily make it the
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@...> wrote:
              >Ah, but that's convenient for you and the assumptions you make/way
              >you play,
              >not necessarily everyone else. We've been at this several years now
              >and the
              >current setup is the best compromise achievable.

              I'm not sure I agree with this. It was the best compromise that
              anyone came up with at the time it was implemented. That doesn't
              necessarily make it the best way to do things. For example, I create
              seperate skills for all situational modifiers. My character sheets
              display:

              Open Locks
              Open Locks (Masterwork Tools)
              Open Locks (No Tools)

              I won't say that this is the best way to handle things, but it is a
              compromise that correctly handles all situations.

              Cheers,

              Sir George Anonymous
            • Michael W. Fender
              Accessing archive from ovka ... Archive found in file ... Not really... Take Survival. There are several variations that gets bonuses all the time if you
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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                Accessing archive from "ovka"...
                Archive found in file
                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@...> wrote:
                > >Ah, but that's convenient for you and the assumptions you make/way
                > >you play,
                > >not necessarily everyone else. We've been at this several years now
                > >and the
                > >current setup is the best compromise achievable.
                >
                > I'm not sure I agree with this. It was the best compromise that
                > anyone came up with at the time it was implemented. That doesn't
                > necessarily make it the best way to do things. For example, I create
                > seperate skills for all situational modifiers. My character sheets
                > display:
                >
                > Open Locks
                > Open Locks (Masterwork Tools)
                > Open Locks (No Tools)
                >
                > I won't say that this is the best way to handle things, but it is a
                > compromise that correctly handles all situations.

                Not really... Take Survival. There are several variations that gets bonuses
                all the time if you have, say, a certain synergy bonus, such as Survival
                (Underground) for Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Survival (Natural Environments)
                for Knowledge (Nature). The variations are useful if you have them enabled
                and are really specific.

                For DD/OL, It's a no ifs, and, or buts.If you don't have theives tools, you
                take a penalty to ALL DD/OL checks. There's no variation. If you happen to
                use a set of Masterwork tools, ALL DD/OL checks get the bonus. But who's to
                say you'll be using the masterwork tools each time? (Old rat bone anyone?)
                --
                Fluxxdog

                The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
                think.
              • Jeff Miller
                ... I see this as a non starter. First you assume that if you have thieves tools you will use them. Then you say that if the thieves tools are masterwork, you
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 4, 2009
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                  Michael W. Fender wrote:
                  > For DD/OL, It's a no ifs, and, or buts.If you don't have theives tools, you
                  > take a penalty to ALL DD/OL checks. There's no variation. If you happen to
                  > use a set of Masterwork tools, ALL DD/OL checks get the bonus. But who's to
                  > say you'll be using the masterwork tools each time? (Old rat bone anyone?)
                  >
                  I see this as a non starter.

                  First you assume that if you have thieves tools you will use them. Then
                  you say that if the thieves tools are masterwork, you might not use
                  them. That doesn't make sense to me.

                  If your thieves tools are masterwork, you aren't any less likely to use
                  them. My rogues don't tend to go around carrying two sets of thieves
                  tools. They carry the best they can afford. I've never seen a need to
                  carry "the set I got as a youngling" for sentimental purposes.

                  --


                  Jeff Miller
                  http://businesscredittips.weebly.com
                  http://investmuse.blogspot.com
                  http://reseminar.blogspot.com
                  Voice: 949-249-3673
                  Fax: 360-246-1742



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                • Michael W. Fender
                  Accessing archive from Jeff Miller ... Archive found in file ... Again, see the Longsppong reference. There s more than one kind of thieves tools, and that s
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 4, 2009
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                    Accessing archive from "Jeff Miller"...
                    Archive found in file
                    > Michael W. Fender wrote:
                    > > For DD/OL, It's a no ifs, and, or buts.If you don't have theives tools,
                    > > you take a penalty to ALL DD/OL checks. There's no variation. If you
                    > > happen to use a set of Masterwork tools, ALL DD/OL checks get the bonus.
                    > > But who's to say you'll be using the masterwork tools each time? (Old
                    > > rat bone anyone?)
                    >
                    > I see this as a non starter.
                    >
                    > First you assume that if you have thieves tools you will use them. Then
                    > you say that if the thieves tools are masterwork, you might not use
                    > them. That doesn't make sense to me.
                    >
                    > If your thieves tools are masterwork, you aren't any less likely to use
                    > them. My rogues don't tend to go around carrying two sets of thieves
                    > tools. They carry the best they can afford. I've never seen a need to
                    > carry "the set I got as a youngling" for sentimental purposes.

                    Again, see the Longsppong reference.

                    There's more than one kind of thieves' tools, and that's my point.

                    --
                    Fluxxdog

                    The worst crime you can commit against another human being is to make them
                    think.
                  • ovka
                    ... Actually, it works just fine for Survvival. I have the skills set up so that you can t put ranks into them, and then every place that adds a bonus to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael W. Fender" <fluxxdog@...>
                      >wrote:
                      >Not really... Take Survival. There are several variations that
                      >gets bonuses
                      >all the time if you have, say, a certain synergy bonus, such as
                      >Survival
                      >(Underground) for Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Survival (Natural
                      >Environments)
                      >for Knowledge (Nature). The variations are useful if you have them
                      >enabled
                      >and are really specific.
                      >
                      >For DD/OL, It's a no ifs, and, or buts.If you don't have theives
                      >tools, you
                      >take a penalty to ALL DD/OL checks. There's no variation. If you
                      >happen to
                      >use a set of Masterwork tools, ALL DD/OL checks get the bonus. But
                      >who's to
                      >say you'll be using the masterwork tools each time? (Old rat bone
                      >anyone?)

                      Actually, it works just fine for Survvival. I have the skills set up
                      so that you can't put ranks into them, and then every place that adds
                      a bonus to those skills (feats, other skills, races, etc.), I have a
                      hidden feat that fires that adds 1 to the rank and reduces the skill
                      modifier by one. This way it displays on the character sheet only
                      when necessary.

                      My ranger character has Survival (Underground), Survival
                      (Dungeoneering), and Survival (Nature) because of the synergy
                      bonuses, and also Survival (Underground/Undead), Survival
                      (Dungeoneering/Undead), Survival (Nature/Undead), and Survival
                      (Undead) because of his favored enemy bonuses.

                      I have it set up so that having an item which provides a bonus to a
                      skill causes the skill with that modifier to display [e.g. DD/OL,
                      plus Listen (Listening Cone), Use Rope (Silk Rope), etc.]. This
                      method works very well for me.

                      The down side is that I have 150 extra skills in the phb, and that
                      most of my characters have their skill lists roll over onto the
                      second page.

                      Cheers,

                      Sir George Anonymous
                    • Andrew Maitland
                      Hi Jeff, This sounds like an impasse Eddy is already modifying one aspect so the skill works the same with/without the tools when the tempmod is applied. The
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
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                        Hi Jeff,

                        This sounds like an impasse'

                        Eddy is already modifying one aspect so the skill works the same
                        with/without the tools when the tempmod is applied.

                        The beauty of PCGen is you can customize it to work how you desire. How
                        would you like it to work for you?

                        The default setting is what the consensus of our user base expects -
                        easy to use from the get-go. I don't need to buy/equip thieves tools.
                        The skill is listed with the assumption that the rogue is using the
                        proper tools. If he isn't using proper tools then the player should know
                        to change the modifier (or the GM should be reminding him).

                        For us, this keeps the 'list' from new users from asking why they have a
                        penalty to x, y and z skills.

                        You can do what 'Ovka' aka Sir George does and have a skill for each
                        case (With tools, without tools, with masterwork, with a circumstanial
                        bonus, with a holy bonus, etc.)

                        You can set the skill to be based upon what is equipped. You can even
                        remove the skill and make up your own.

                        "Most" users use PCGen to make a 'static' character sheet for use during
                        a game, and then update the sheet after the game; other users use PCGen
                        actively during the game, using the tempmods as game play goes on and
                        dynamically altering the bonuses on their sheet.

                        The default allows both types of frequent uses to be done without the
                        player needing to know they need to buy thieves' tools, equip them so
                        they don't have a penalty. (As a GM who has needed to make a party of
                        six characters in under an hour, that has saved my bacon.)

                        Don't allow the defaults to put you off. The program is customizable to
                        make the majority of our users happy and enjoy many years of the program.

                        Cheers,

                        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                        Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
                        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



                        Jeff Miller wrote:
                        > Michael W. Fender wrote:
                        >
                        >> For DD/OL, It's a no ifs, and, or buts.If you don't have theives tools, you
                        >> take a penalty to ALL DD/OL checks. There's no variation. If you happen to
                        >> use a set of Masterwork tools, ALL DD/OL checks get the bonus. But who's to
                        >> say you'll be using the masterwork tools each time? (Old rat bone anyone?)
                        >>
                        >>
                        > I see this as a non starter.
                        >
                        > First you assume that if you have thieves tools you will use them. Then
                        > you say that if the thieves tools are masterwork, you might not use
                        > them. That doesn't make sense to me.
                        >
                        > If your thieves tools are masterwork, you aren't any less likely to use
                        > them. My rogues don't tend to go around carrying two sets of thieves
                        > tools. They carry the best they can afford. I've never seen a need to
                        > carry "the set I got as a youngling" for sentimental purposes.
                        >
                        >


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