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Support for Epic Characters

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  • ovka
    This topic first came up over on the cmp boards. I am bringing it here to ask if/how folks around here handle epic characters and creatures in PCGen. First,
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 18, 2008
      This topic first came up over on the cmp boards. I am bringing it
      here to ask if/how folks around here handle epic characters and
      creatures in PCGen.

      First, here are the relevant rules. According to the DMG, racial hit
      dice count in full for BAB and saving throws. ECL 21+ qualifies a
      character (or creature) as epic. Any class levels assigned after ECL
      20 follow the epic progression for to hit and saving throw
      modifiers. This is slightly different in the rsrd as it doesn't
      appear to address characters with level adjustments when it comes to
      their epic status, and I haven't found where it addresses racial hit
      dice.

      In the 3.5e game mode (statsandchecks.lst) we find the following tags:

      BONUS:COMBAT|TOHIT|max(((TL-HD)-19)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
      BONUS:CHECKS|Fortitude|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
      BONUS:CHECKS|Reflex|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
      BONUS:CHECKS|Will|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic

      The cmp data files use TL instead of TL-HD in the above formulas.
      I'm not sure if the TL-HD attempts to take into account the "all
      racial hit dice qualify" rule, but it doesn't really do it
      correctly. This works for creatures that have *only* racial hit
      dice, but not for characters or creatures with class levels.

      Regardless of which method you use to determine when a character
      qualifies as epic, (ECL 21+ or TL 21+), I don't think PCGen can
      properly handle it. Creatures without class levels are OK, but for
      creatures or characters that advance using class levels, the numbers
      would only work out correctly if there were a couple of different
      versions of the classes, one for adding pre-epic levels, and one for
      adding epic levels.

      Let's use an 8th level fire giant fighter (15 HD, +4 LA, ECL 27) as
      an example. Using the ECL 21+ method, the fire giant reaches epic
      levels when he takes his 2nd fighter level. This means his BAB
      should be 12 (11 from racial HD, + 1 from the fighter class), with an
      additional epic bonus of +4 to hit (+16 total to hit). Using the TL
      21+ method, the fire giant reaches epic levels when he takes his 6th
      fighter level. This means his BAB should be 16 (11 from racial hd,
      +5 from the fighter class), with an additional epic bonus of +1 to
      hit (+17 total to hit). Using the rsrd files, PCGen calculates a BAB
      of 19 (11 from racial hd, +8 from the fighter class), with no
      additional epic bonus (+19 total to hit). Using the cmp files, PCGen
      calculates a BAB of 19 (11 from racial hd, +8 from the fighter
      class), with an additional epic bonus of +2 to hit (+21 total to hit).

      So, has anyone around here made this work correctly? Is there
      something I'm missing?

      I'm thinking about creating special templates for each epic character
      that I need to create which modifies BAB and base save values, but
      that's kind of kludgy. Does anyone have any other ideas for handling
      epic characters and creatures?

      TIA,

      Sir George Anonymous
    • Andrew Maitland
      Hm, It seems to be a matter of debate. Creatures with Level Adjustment exist and I m not sure how that affects things. I don t normally play epic. I do know
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 18, 2008
        Hm,

        It seems to be a matter of debate. Creatures with Level Adjustment exist
        and I'm not sure how that affects things. I don't normally play epic.

        I do know that Monsters above 20 HD follow the Epic progression rules,
        and I know that Classes above 20 level follow the Epic progression rules.

        The mixture... *shrugs*. I think I'll pass this along to Tir. He might
        be able to explain the reasons. (Tir has been around a really long time
        so he should know)

        ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
        ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
        "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



        ovka wrote:
        > This topic first came up over on the cmp boards. I am bringing it
        > here to ask if/how folks around here handle epic characters and
        > creatures in PCGen.
        >
        > First, here are the relevant rules. According to the DMG, racial hit
        > dice count in full for BAB and saving throws. ECL 21+ qualifies a
        > character (or creature) as epic. Any class levels assigned after ECL
        > 20 follow the epic progression for to hit and saving throw
        > modifiers. This is slightly different in the rsrd as it doesn't
        > appear to address characters with level adjustments when it comes to
        > their epic status, and I haven't found where it addresses racial hit
        > dice.
        >
        > In the 3.5e game mode (statsandchecks.lst) we find the following tags:
        >
        > BONUS:COMBAT|TOHIT|max(((TL-HD)-19)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
        > BONUS:CHECKS|Fortitude|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
        > BONUS:CHECKS|Reflex|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
        > BONUS:CHECKS|Will|max(((TL-HD)-20)/2,0)|TYPE=Epic
        >
        > The cmp data files use TL instead of TL-HD in the above formulas.
        > I'm not sure if the TL-HD attempts to take into account the "all
        > racial hit dice qualify" rule, but it doesn't really do it
        > correctly. This works for creatures that have *only* racial hit
        > dice, but not for characters or creatures with class levels.
        >
        > Regardless of which method you use to determine when a character
        > qualifies as epic, (ECL 21+ or TL 21+), I don't think PCGen can
        > properly handle it. Creatures without class levels are OK, but for
        > creatures or characters that advance using class levels, the numbers
        > would only work out correctly if there were a couple of different
        > versions of the classes, one for adding pre-epic levels, and one for
        > adding epic levels.
        >
        > Let's use an 8th level fire giant fighter (15 HD, +4 LA, ECL 27) as
        > an example. Using the ECL 21+ method, the fire giant reaches epic
        > levels when he takes his 2nd fighter level. This means his BAB
        > should be 12 (11 from racial HD, + 1 from the fighter class), with an
        > additional epic bonus of +4 to hit (+16 total to hit). Using the TL
        > 21+ method, the fire giant reaches epic levels when he takes his 6th
        > fighter level. This means his BAB should be 16 (11 from racial hd,
        > +5 from the fighter class), with an additional epic bonus of +1 to
        > hit (+17 total to hit). Using the rsrd files, PCGen calculates a BAB
        > of 19 (11 from racial hd, +8 from the fighter class), with no
        > additional epic bonus (+19 total to hit). Using the cmp files, PCGen
        > calculates a BAB of 19 (11 from racial hd, +8 from the fighter
        > class), with an additional epic bonus of +2 to hit (+21 total to hit).
        >
        > So, has anyone around here made this work correctly? Is there
        > something I'm missing?
        >
        > I'm thinking about creating special templates for each epic character
        > that I need to create which modifies BAB and base save values, but
        > that's kind of kludgy. Does anyone have any other ideas for handling
        > epic characters and creatures?
        >
        > TIA,
        >
        > Sir George Anonymous
        >
        >
        >
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      • Byngl
        ... rules, If you look at the Tarrasque, the entry in the MM3.5 has 48HD, Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14. It is a magical beast, so it gets BAB
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 21, 2008
          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
          >
          > I do know that Monsters above 20 HD follow the Epic progression
          rules,

          If you look at the Tarrasque, the entry in the MM3.5 has 48HD, Str
          45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14. It is a magical beast, so
          it gets BAB as Fighter, Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.

          Listed MM stats:
          Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81
          Attack: Bite +57 melee
          Saves: Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20

          Using HD only, no epic progression:
          Saves: Fort +38 (+26(Base) +12(Con)), Ref +29 (+26(Base) +3(Dex)),
          Will +20 (+16(Base) +2(Iron Will) +2(Wis))
          Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+81(+48(Base) +17(Str) +16(Size))
          Attack: +57 (+48(Base) +17(Str) -8(Size)) melee

          Using epic progression:
          Saves: Fort +38 (+12(Base) +14(Epic) +12(Con)), Ref +29 (+12(Base) +
          14(Epic) +3(Dex)), Will +24 (+6(Base) + 14(Epic) +2(Iron Will) +2
          (Wis))
          Base Attack/Grapple: +34 (+20(Base) +14(Epic))/+67 (+34 +17(Str) +16
          (Size))
          Attack: +43 (+34(Base) +17(Str) -8(Size)) melee

          So epic progression is definately not used for monsters with more
          than 20HD
        • ovka
          ... That s correct for the MM, and probably the rsrd as well. My question/concern is how to handle epic characters or creatures with class levels. What I ve
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 22, 2008
            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Byngl" <byngl@...> wrote:
            >--- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@> wrote:
            >>
            >>I do know that Monsters above 20 HD follow the Epic progression
            >rules,
            >
            >If you look at the Tarrasque, the entry in the MM3.5 has 48HD, Str

            ... snip ...


            >So epic progression is definately not used for monsters with more
            >than 20HD

            That's correct for the MM, and probably the rsrd as well. My
            question/concern is how to handle epic characters or creatures with
            class levels.

            What I've had to do so far is to create a special epic template for
            each character/creature that adjusts the BAB and base saving throws.
            Every time such a character gains a level, the template will need to
            be adjusted. That doesn't seem right, but at present I haven't found
            a better way.

            Cheers,

            Sir George Anonymous
          • ovka
            ... Anyone? Cheers, Sir George Anonymous
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 29, 2008
              <snippage>

              >My
              >question/concern is how to handle epic characters or creatures with
              >class levels.
              >
              >What I've had to do so far is to create a special epic template for
              >each character/creature that adjusts the BAB and base saving throws.
              >Every time such a character gains a level, the template will need to
              >be adjusted. That doesn't seem right, but at present I haven't found
              >a better way.

              Anyone?

              Cheers,

              Sir George Anonymous
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