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Re: Approaches to trained/untrained skills

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  • Eddy
    ... Hi James Great to see someone on the code team thinking about this. My preference is to adapt the Skills tab to the new models. I ve thought about how this
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 7, 2008
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      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "James Dempsey" <jdempsey@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > The concept of trained and untrained skills seems to be quite popular with
      > game designers currently. Star Wars Saga Edition and Pathfinder have adopted
      > this approach to skills, rather than the skill points based system in 3e and
      > 3.5e.
      >
      > The general idea being that you are trained in a number of skills, which
      > gives you a significant bonus to those skills, however you don't progress
      > any faster in those skills than anyone else. Thus all characters get better
      > at all skills as they level up, but some are always just a bit better than
      > others, being the ones they know.
      >
      > PCGen is written around the concept of skills having points, with a page
      > dedicated to allocating those points. Obviously that level f complexity
      > isn't needed in this system. The question then becomes how to integrate a
      > trained/untrained skill system into PCGen?
      >
      > A couple of possibilities are:
      > 1. Use abilities to model the skills and run bonuses off them. So if your
      > class gets 5 trained skills you get 5 choices for the 'class skill' ability
      > and each of these will provide a bonus to a specific skill. The skills panel
      > is then unused apart from viewing a breakdown of the skill benefit.
      >
      > 2. Use the skills tab to select skills - the class/cross-class skill concept
      > is the same, but you can put a maximum of one point into each skill. Your 5
      > trained skills could be done as getting 5 skill points at first level and
      > none thereafter. A bonus would need to be coded to provide the appropriate
      > trained bonus if it was not just 1. Provision happens to be available for
      > names for the skill ranks rather than numbers, so you could code 0 as
      > untrained and 1 as trained if that was desired.
      >
      > Personally I prefer the second approach - as it puts skills where it would
      > be expected, particularly by experienced users of PCGen, but probably even
      > those who are new to the tool. The code can already cope with having a cap
      > of 1 rank (and 0 for cross-class) no matter the level and the bonus system
      > should be able to handle a trained bonus of say 5 for the 1 rank.
      >
      > What do others think? Please do chime in even if you don't do LST or code -
      > end users are after all why we have the program!
      >
      > PS: This could be seen as the province of the experimental or list file help
      > lists, but I was more looking for general input on what approach people
      > would prefer and why. I think we are highly likely to support Pathfinder and
      > there should be no reason why 4e or SWSE support could not be coded at least
      > on an individual/personal use basis by those interested in it.
      >
      > --
      > Cheers,
      > James Dempsey
      > PCGen Code SB

      Hi James

      Great to see someone on the code team thinking about this. My preference is to adapt the
      Skills tab to the new models. I've thought about how this could be modeled using ability
      objects and it can to an extent but there are limitations I can't think of how to get past.
      The main one is that Ability Objects would have no way to distinguish between class and
      cross-class skills.

      Something else to consider is that the models are not quite the same, in the SWSE game
      the class skill list is what the player chooses his trained skill from but in Pathfinder you
      can pick any skill to be trained in but you get a better bonus if it's a class skill.

      I think using skill points as a skill pool would work fine as long as the point put in was not
      used in the bonus calculation.
      --
      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
      ~ Chair Second, PCGen Board of Directors
      ~ Data Content Second, Doc Chimp, OS Tamarin
    • Andrew Maitland
      We have PRECCSKILL and PRECSKILL that d I ve used. I was able to figure out a decent model for the SWSE, but thus far haven t attempted to tackle pathfinder
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 7, 2008
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        We have PRECCSKILL and PRECSKILL that'd I've used. I was able to figure
        out a decent model for the SWSE, but thus far haven't attempted to
        tackle pathfinder since we have several eager monkeys already on that
        bandwagon.

        Also, I think you can borrow the MODEL from MSRD, TYPE the skills with
        the Class that it's a Class skill. (TYPE is sooooo handy!!!)

        Eddy, if you send me a copy of the section you're trying to think up,
        I'll try and figure out a method. But I'm sure the above ideas have
        already gotten those wheels turning. :-)

        ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
        ~ Data Gibbon, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Lemur
        "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



        Eddy wrote:
        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "James Dempsey" <jdempsey@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> The concept of trained and untrained skills seems to be quite popular with
        >> game designers currently. Star Wars Saga Edition and Pathfinder have adopted
        >> this approach to skills, rather than the skill points based system in 3e and
        >> 3.5e.
        >>
        >> The general idea being that you are trained in a number of skills, which
        >> gives you a significant bonus to those skills, however you don't progress
        >> any faster in those skills than anyone else. Thus all characters get better
        >> at all skills as they level up, but some are always just a bit better than
        >> others, being the ones they know.
        >>
        >> PCGen is written around the concept of skills having points, with a page
        >> dedicated to allocating those points. Obviously that level f complexity
        >> isn't needed in this system. The question then becomes how to integrate a
        >> trained/untrained skill system into PCGen?
        >>
        >> A couple of possibilities are:
        >> 1. Use abilities to model the skills and run bonuses off them. So if your
        >> class gets 5 trained skills you get 5 choices for the 'class skill' ability
        >> and each of these will provide a bonus to a specific skill. The skills panel
        >> is then unused apart from viewing a breakdown of the skill benefit.
        >>
        >> 2. Use the skills tab to select skills - the class/cross-class skill concept
        >> is the same, but you can put a maximum of one point into each skill. Your 5
        >> trained skills could be done as getting 5 skill points at first level and
        >> none thereafter. A bonus would need to be coded to provide the appropriate
        >> trained bonus if it was not just 1. Provision happens to be available for
        >> names for the skill ranks rather than numbers, so you could code 0 as
        >> untrained and 1 as trained if that was desired.
        >>
        >> Personally I prefer the second approach - as it puts skills where it would
        >> be expected, particularly by experienced users of PCGen, but probably even
        >> those who are new to the tool. The code can already cope with having a cap
        >> of 1 rank (and 0 for cross-class) no matter the level and the bonus system
        >> should be able to handle a trained bonus of say 5 for the 1 rank.
        >>
        >> What do others think? Please do chime in even if you don't do LST or code -
        >> end users are after all why we have the program!
        >>
        >> PS: This could be seen as the province of the experimental or list file help
        >> lists, but I was more looking for general input on what approach people
        >> would prefer and why. I think we are highly likely to support Pathfinder and
        >> there should be no reason why 4e or SWSE support could not be coded at least
        >> on an individual/personal use basis by those interested in it.
        >>
        >> --
        >> Cheers,
        >> James Dempsey
        >> PCGen Code SB
        >>
        >
        > Hi James
        >
        > Great to see someone on the code team thinking about this. My preference is to adapt the
        > Skills tab to the new models. I've thought about how this could be modeled using ability
        > objects and it can to an extent but there are limitations I can't think of how to get past.
        > The main one is that Ability Objects would have no way to distinguish between class and
        > cross-class skills.
        >
        > Something else to consider is that the models are not quite the same, in the SWSE game
        > the class skill list is what the player chooses his trained skill from but in Pathfinder you
        > can pick any skill to be trained in but you get a better bonus if it's a class skill.
        >
        > I think using skill points as a skill pool would work fine as long as the point put in was not
        > used in the bonus calculation.
        >


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