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[BUG] - Ability Score pre-req for Feats

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  • David
    Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don t matter). Give him feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger. As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure,
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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      Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
      feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.

      As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
      Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
      can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
      numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
      again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
      red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being applied.

      -- david
      Papa-DRB
    • Martijn Verburg
      ... IIRC this is a long outstanding problem that will get tackled by CDOM, bonus bananas to whomever can find the freq/bug that exists for this (I know I
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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        > Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
        > feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
        >
        > As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
        > Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
        > can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
        > numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
        > again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
        > red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being
        > applied.

        IIRC this is a long outstanding problem that will get tackled by CDOM,
        bonus bananas to whomever can find the freq/bug that exists for this
        (I know I entered one ages ago)

        K
      • Eddy Anthony
        ... Not a bug, that s the expected behavior of the program. I don t have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this but as I understand things a
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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          David wrote:
          > Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
          > feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
          >
          > As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
          > Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
          > can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
          > numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
          > again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
          > red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being applied.
          >
          > -- david
          > Papa-DRB
          >

          Not a bug, that's the expected behavior of the program.

          I don't have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this but as
          I understand things a feats prerequisites determine if you can take the
          feat but not if you gain the feats benefits so once you have it you
          benefit even if you no longer meet the prerequisites.

          You may be thinking of virtual feats which many classes grant and ARE
          conditional on meeting the feats prerequisites to gain the benefits.

          As a GM I would not have allowed the feat selection since the
          prerequisites were met by magical temporary means. There is an item
          which boasts intelligence which prompted an official ruling that you
          could not gain additional skill points if you were wearing it when
          leveling up. I see some parallels in this case.

          --
          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
          ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
        • kevin_fernandes01453
          Here is the text from the latest FAQ 07/2007 (page 39) A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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            Here is the text from the latest FAQ 07/2007 (page 39)

            "A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability
            score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it
            requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears
            an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex
            score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only
            when she wears the item?
            Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the
            use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from
            the item."

            So, assuming the FAQ is correct, once a character loses the ability to
            use a feat, they do not lose the feat, but instead lose all the
            benefits afforded by that feat (i.e., the ability to use the feat).

            Further in the FAQ (page 103)

            "If a character levels up after taking Intelligence damage
            does the number of skill points he receives for the new level
            depend on his normal Intelligence score or his damaged
            score? What if he takes ability drain instead of damage?
            What happens to his existing skill ranks?
            As noted on page 38 of the Player's Handbook, only
            permanent changes to Intelligence affect the number of skill
            points you gain when taking a new level. A character with
            Intelligence damage gains skill points based on his normal
            (undamaged) Intelligence score, while a character with
            Intelligence drain gains skill points based on the adjusted score.
            Either way, this has no effect on his existing skill ranks.
            Permanent changes to Intelligence don't retroactively change
            your number of skill ranks from previous levels."

            So for skills, only permanent changes affect the skill points awarded.
            This is rather inconsistent, but it is FAQed. As Eddy stated, as a
            GM I probably would not allow someone to take a feat if it were only
            valid when they had some temporary magical effect on them.

            Kevin F.
            (Code Lemur)

            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
            >
            > David wrote:
            > > Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
            > > feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
            > >
            > > As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
            > > Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
            > > can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
            > > numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
            > > again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
            > > red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being
            applied.
            > >
            > > -- david
            > > Papa-DRB
            > >
            >
            > Not a bug, that's the expected behavior of the program.
            >
            > I don't have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this
            but as
            > I understand things a feats prerequisites determine if you can take the
            > feat but not if you gain the feats benefits so once you have it you
            > benefit even if you no longer meet the prerequisites.
            >
            > You may be thinking of virtual feats which many classes grant and ARE
            > conditional on meeting the feats prerequisites to gain the benefits.
            >
            > As a GM I would not have allowed the feat selection since the
            > prerequisites were met by magical temporary means. There is an item
            > which boasts intelligence which prompted an official ruling that you
            > could not gain additional skill points if you were wearing it when
            > leveling up. I see some parallels in this case.
            >
            > --
            > ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
            > ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
            >
          • Martijn Verburg
            Hey Tom, Not sure if these situations are covered in CDOM or not. We should also make it _very_ clear in feedback to the user why the bahiousr is occurring. K
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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              Hey Tom,

              Not sure if these situations are covered in CDOM or not. We should
              also make it _very_ clear in feedback to the user why the bahiousr is
              occurring.

              K

              PS: Thanks for finding that out Kevin

              > Here is the text from the latest FAQ 07/2007 (page 39)
              >
              > "A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability
              > score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it
              > requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears
              > an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex
              > score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only
              > when she wears the item?
              > Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the
              > use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from
              > the item."
              >
              > So, assuming the FAQ is correct, once a character loses the ability to
              > use a feat, they do not lose the feat, but instead lose all the
              > benefits afforded by that feat (i.e., the ability to use the feat).
              >
              > Further in the FAQ (page 103)
              >
              > "If a character levels up after taking Intelligence damage
              > does the number of skill points he receives for the new level
              > depend on his normal Intelligence score or his damaged
              > score? What if he takes ability drain instead of damage?
              > What happens to his existing skill ranks?
              > As noted on page 38 of the Player's Handbook, only
              > permanent changes to Intelligence affect the number of skill
              > points you gain when taking a new level. A character with
              > Intelligence damage gains skill points based on his normal
              > (undamaged) Intelligence score, while a character with
              > Intelligence drain gains skill points based on the adjusted score.
              > Either way, this has no effect on his existing skill ranks.
              > Permanent changes to Intelligence don't retroactively change
              > your number of skill ranks from previous levels."
              >
              > So for skills, only permanent changes affect the skill points awarded.
              > This is rather inconsistent, but it is FAQed. As Eddy stated, as a
              > GM I probably would not allow someone to take a feat if it were only
              > valid when they had some temporary magical effect on them.
              >
              > Kevin F.
              > (Code Lemur)
              >
              > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@> wrote:
              > >
              > > David wrote:
              > > > Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
              > > > feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
              > > >
              > > > As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
              > > > Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
              > > > can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
              > > > numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
              > > > again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
              > > > red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being
              > applied.
              > > >
              > > > -- david
              > > > Papa-DRB
              > > >
              > >
              > > Not a bug, that's the expected behavior of the program.
              > >
              > > I don't have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this
              > but as
              > > I understand things a feats prerequisites determine if you can
              take the
              > > feat but not if you gain the feats benefits so once you have it you
              > > benefit even if you no longer meet the prerequisites.
              > >
              > > You may be thinking of virtual feats which many classes grant and ARE
              > > conditional on meeting the feats prerequisites to gain the benefits.
              > >
              > > As a GM I would not have allowed the feat selection since the
              > > prerequisites were met by magical temporary means. There is an item
              > > which boasts intelligence which prompted an official ruling that you
              > > could not gain additional skill points if you were wearing it when
              > > leveling up. I see some parallels in this case.
              > >
              > > --
              > > ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
              > > ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
              > >
              >
            • Tom Parker
              ... Yea, this is interesting. The Skill/Intelligence thing is also interesting, and something I hadn t considered. Today s CDOM theory: If the gloves are on,
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...>
                wrote:
                > Not sure if these situations are covered in CDOM or not. We should
                > also make it _very_ clear in feedback to the user why the bahiousr is
                > occurring.

                Yea, this is interesting. The Skill/Intelligence thing is also
                interesting, and something I hadn't considered.

                Today's CDOM theory:

                If the gloves are on, the Feat can be taken.

                If the gloves come off, then I need to figure out how to not flag the
                choice as a rules violation (this is one of the problems with
                retroactivity - this is selective application :P ), but the Feat and
                the Benefits will disappear from the active character (but the choice
                will not be forgotten)

                If the gloves go back on, then the Feat will reappear (I think this
                means Equipment must be virtually applied at level 0 when active
                object construction is performed - I'll need to explain this in the
                arch doc)

                However, as the theory stands, the Feat will *not* appear on the
                character sheet if the gloves come off.

                Thus, there are some considerations that need to be made for how this
                is handled...

                TP.

                P.S. I respect the issue, but feedback is a UI problem, CDOM doesn't care.
              • Martijn Verburg
                Hey Tom, ... Cool, glad we flagged it for you :) ... Yup, totally agree, I ll make a tracker for this for the 6.0 series, something like a pop up or a new
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                  Hey Tom,

                  > Yea, this is interesting. The Skill/Intelligence thing is also
                  > interesting, and something I hadn't considered.
                  >
                  > Today's CDOM theory:
                  >
                  > If the gloves are on, the Feat can be taken.
                  >
                  > If the gloves come off, then I need to figure out how to not flag
                  > the
                  > choice as a rules violation (this is one of the problems with
                  > retroactivity - this is selective application :P ), but the Feat and
                  > the Benefits will disappear from the active character (but the
                  > choice will not be forgotten)
                  >
                  > If the gloves go back on, then the Feat will reappear (I think this
                  > means Equipment must be virtually applied at level 0 when active
                  > object construction is performed - I'll need to explain this in the
                  > arch doc)
                  >
                  > However, as the theory stands, the Feat will *not* appear on the
                  > character sheet if the gloves come off.
                  >
                  > Thus, there are some considerations that need to be made for how
                  > this is handled...

                  Cool, glad we flagged it for you :)

                  > P.S. I respect the issue, but feedback is a UI problem, CDOM doesn't
                  > care.

                  Yup, totally agree, I'll make a tracker for this for the 6.0 series,
                  something like a pop up or a new colour to indicate a FEAT that is no
                  longer giving benefits or a FEAT that is giving benefits although the
                  pre-reqs are currently not being met, that sort of thing.

                  Man 3e and 3.5e are complex :)

                  4e anyone? <evil grin as Karianna starts a flame war>

                  Actually stow that, moderators shouldn't start flame wars :)

                  K
                • Tom Parker
                  ... Remember kids: Say No to pop-ups.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...>
                    wrote:
                    > Yup, totally agree, I'll make a tracker for this for the 6.0 series,
                    > something like a pop up or a new colour to indicate a FEAT that is no
                    > longer giving benefits or a FEAT that is giving benefits although the
                    > pre-reqs are currently not being met, that sort of thing.

                    Remember kids: Say "No" to pop-ups.
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    Interesting info Kevin, thanks for digging that up. That s why I qualified myself, I had a feeling there might be something like this buried somewhere. I know
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                      Interesting info Kevin, thanks for digging that up. That's why I
                      qualified myself, I had a feeling there might be something like this
                      buried somewhere.

                      I know how this specific problem can be reworked in the data to make it
                      function. Any feat with PRESTAT requirements that grant a benefit
                      implemented with a BONUS tag we can just add the PRESTAT to the bonus as
                      well. That will be confusing because there is no UI flag informing the
                      user of the situation and people like me who don't interpret the rules
                      that way would be in the dark.

                      There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL and
                      typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed from the
                      SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.

                      kevin_fernandes01453 wrote:
                      > Here is the text from the latest FAQ 07/2007 (page 39)
                      >
                      > "A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability
                      > score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it
                      > requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears
                      > an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex
                      > score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only
                      > when she wears the item?
                      > Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the
                      > use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from
                      > the item."
                      >
                      > So, assuming the FAQ is correct, once a character loses the ability to
                      > use a feat, they do not lose the feat, but instead lose all the
                      > benefits afforded by that feat (i.e., the ability to use the feat).
                      >
                      > Further in the FAQ (page 103)
                      >
                      > "If a character levels up after taking Intelligence damage
                      > does the number of skill points he receives for the new level
                      > depend on his normal Intelligence score or his damaged
                      > score? What if he takes ability drain instead of damage?
                      > What happens to his existing skill ranks?
                      > As noted on page 38 of the Player's Handbook, only
                      > permanent changes to Intelligence affect the number of skill
                      > points you gain when taking a new level. A character with
                      > Intelligence damage gains skill points based on his normal
                      > (undamaged) Intelligence score, while a character with
                      > Intelligence drain gains skill points based on the adjusted score.
                      > Either way, this has no effect on his existing skill ranks.
                      > Permanent changes to Intelligence don't retroactively change
                      > your number of skill ranks from previous levels."
                      >
                      > So for skills, only permanent changes affect the skill points awarded.
                      > This is rather inconsistent, but it is FAQed. As Eddy stated, as a
                      > GM I probably would not allow someone to take a feat if it were only
                      > valid when they had some temporary magical effect on them.
                      >
                      > Kevin F.
                      > (Code Lemur)
                      >
                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> David wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
                      >>> feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
                      >>>
                      >>> As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
                      >>> Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
                      >>> can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
                      >>> numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
                      >>> again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
                      >>> red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being
                      >>>
                      > applied.
                      >
                      >>> -- david
                      >>> Papa-DRB
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >> Not a bug, that's the expected behavior of the program.
                      >>
                      >> I don't have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this
                      >>
                      > but as
                      >
                      >> I understand things a feats prerequisites determine if you can take the
                      >> feat but not if you gain the feats benefits so once you have it you
                      >> benefit even if you no longer meet the prerequisites.
                      >>
                      >> You may be thinking of virtual feats which many classes grant and ARE
                      >> conditional on meeting the feats prerequisites to gain the benefits.
                      >>
                      >> As a GM I would not have allowed the feat selection since the
                      >> prerequisites were met by magical temporary means. There is an item
                      >> which boasts intelligence which prompted an official ruling that you
                      >> could not gain additional skill points if you were wearing it when
                      >> leveling up. I see some parallels in this case.
                      >>
                      >>
                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
                    • Frank Kliewe
                      ... Wouldn t that depend how it is coded in the LST file? My understanding was that we could use PRE:xxx on the feat, so it will only be cecked when taking the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                        On 8/29/07, Tom Parker <thpr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Martijn Verburg" <martijnverburg@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Not sure if these situations are covered in CDOM or not. We should
                        > > also make it _very_ clear in feedback to the user why the bahiousr is
                        > > occurring.
                        >
                        > Yea, this is interesting. The Skill/Intelligence thing is also
                        > interesting, and something I hadn't considered.
                        >
                        > Today's CDOM theory:
                        >
                        > If the gloves are on, the Feat can be taken.
                        >
                        > If the gloves come off, then I need to figure out how to not flag the
                        > choice as a rules violation (this is one of the problems with
                        > retroactivity - this is selective application :P ), but the Feat and
                        > the Benefits will disappear from the active character (but the choice
                        > will not be forgotten)
                        >
                        > If the gloves go back on, then the Feat will reappear (I think this
                        > means Equipment must be virtually applied at level 0 when active
                        > object construction is performed - I'll need to explain this in the
                        > arch doc)
                        >
                        > However, as the theory stands, the Feat will *not* appear on the
                        > character sheet if the gloves come off.
                        >

                        Wouldn't that depend how it is coded in the LST file? My understanding
                        was that we could use PRE:xxx on the feat, so it will only be cecked
                        when taking the feat, but could put REQ:xxx on the effects like BONUS
                        tags.


                        Cheerio,

                        Frank Kliewe
                        PCGen Content Silverback

                        --
                        I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of
                        it as... therapy.
                        (The Joker in "Batman", 1989)
                      • kevin_fernandes01453
                        ... the ... At first I was going to say How can the FAQ be non-OGL? You must wrong! , but thinking better of it :) I just double checked and sure enough,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Interesting info Kevin, thanks for digging that up. That's why I
                          > qualified myself, I had a feeling there might be something like this
                          > buried somewhere.
                          >
                          ::snip:

                          > There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL and
                          > typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed from
                          the
                          > SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.

                          At first I was going to say "How can the FAQ be non-OGL? You must
                          wrong!", but thinking better of it :) I just double checked and sure
                          enough, right at the bottom of the first page it states clearly "This
                          Wizards of the Coast game product contains no Open Game Content".
                          WOW, I would have never guessed that the FAQ was non-OGL!!...

                          LOL.

                          Is it possible, given your suggestion, to create a user mod for this
                          without affecting the SRD and RSRD implementation in PCGen?

                          Kevin F.
                          (Code Lemur)

                          >
                          > kevin_fernandes01453 wrote:
                          > > Here is the text from the latest FAQ 07/2007 (page 39)
                          > >
                          > > "A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability
                          > > score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it
                          > > requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears
                          > > an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex
                          > > score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only
                          > > when she wears the item?
                          > > Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the
                          > > use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from
                          > > the item."
                          > >
                          > > So, assuming the FAQ is correct, once a character loses the ability to
                          > > use a feat, they do not lose the feat, but instead lose all the
                          > > benefits afforded by that feat (i.e., the ability to use the feat).
                          > >
                          > > Further in the FAQ (page 103)
                          > >
                          > > "If a character levels up after taking Intelligence damage
                          > > does the number of skill points he receives for the new level
                          > > depend on his normal Intelligence score or his damaged
                          > > score? What if he takes ability drain instead of damage?
                          > > What happens to his existing skill ranks?
                          > > As noted on page 38 of the Player's Handbook, only
                          > > permanent changes to Intelligence affect the number of skill
                          > > points you gain when taking a new level. A character with
                          > > Intelligence damage gains skill points based on his normal
                          > > (undamaged) Intelligence score, while a character with
                          > > Intelligence drain gains skill points based on the adjusted score.
                          > > Either way, this has no effect on his existing skill ranks.
                          > > Permanent changes to Intelligence don't retroactively change
                          > > your number of skill ranks from previous levels."
                          > >
                          > > So for skills, only permanent changes affect the skill points awarded.
                          > > This is rather inconsistent, but it is FAQed. As Eddy stated, as a
                          > > GM I probably would not allow someone to take a feat if it were only
                          > > valid when they had some temporary magical effect on them.
                          > >
                          > > Kevin F.
                          > > (Code Lemur)
                          > >
                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> David wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>> Create a fighter with Dexterity of 13 (rest don't matter). Give him
                          > >>> feats, skills, a longsword and a dagger.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> As part of his treasure during his 1st adventure, he finds Gloves of
                          > >>> Dexterity +2. When leveling up to 2nd level, he now has Dex 15 so he
                          > >>> can qualify for two weapon fighting (see 12/2006 FAQ). All the
                          > >>> numbers, etc, work great. Now he loses the gloves so his Dex is 13
                          > >>> again. Un-equipping the gloves, the two weapon fighting feat shows
                          > >>> red, but the now the numbers are wrong because it is still being
                          > >>>
                          > > applied.
                          > >
                          > >>> -- david
                          > >>> Papa-DRB
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >> Not a bug, that's the expected behavior of the program.
                          > >>
                          > >> I don't have the rules in front of me so I could be wrong on this
                          > >>
                          > > but as
                          > >
                          > >> I understand things a feats prerequisites determine if you can
                          take the
                          > >> feat but not if you gain the feats benefits so once you have it you
                          > >> benefit even if you no longer meet the prerequisites.
                          > >>
                          > >> You may be thinking of virtual feats which many classes grant and
                          ARE
                          > >> conditional on meeting the feats prerequisites to gain the benefits.
                          > >>
                          > >> As a GM I would not have allowed the feat selection since the
                          > >> prerequisites were met by magical temporary means. There is an item
                          > >> which boasts intelligence which prompted an official ruling that you
                          > >> could not gain additional skill points if you were wearing it when
                          > >> leveling up. I see some parallels in this case.
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > --
                          > ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                          > ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
                          >
                        • Tom Parker
                          ... Yes and No. If a Feat is granted at 1st level, it is always assumed to be taken at the level-up event to 1st level. Let me give an example without using
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Kliewe" <fkliewe@...> wrote:

                            > Wouldn't that depend how it is coded in the LST file? My understanding
                            > was that we could use PRE:xxx on the feat, so it will only be cecked
                            > when taking the feat, but could put REQ:xxx on the effects like BONUS
                            > tags.

                            Yes and No.

                            If a Feat is granted at 1st level, it is always assumed to be taken at
                            the level-up event to 1st level. Let me give an example without using
                            Equipment, since that's a bit of a wild-card here.

                            Assume at 1st Level a PC gets to choose a Feat of TYPE Foo.
                            One such FEAT is Bar, which has PREFEAT=1,Dodge
                            This selection is not made at 1st level, but deferred.
                            At 4th level the PC takes Dodge.
                            The PC cannot then choose Bar as their 1st level Feat (of TYPE Foo),
                            because Dodge is not possessed at 1st level, and the FEAT of Type Foo
                            (granted at 1st level) will test the PRExxx tokens against the
                            contents of the PC *at first level*, not *at the time the choice is
                            made by the user*. We grant flexibility in usage, but still enforce
                            the rules (or flag if they are violated)

                            Having said that, Thanks for the correction... you're right that I
                            messed up the above example, because I forgot about the PRE: and REQ:
                            thing. Here is the correct description:

                            If the gloves are on, the Feat can be taken.

                            If the gloves come off, then I need to figure out how to not flag the
                            choice as a rules violation (because the retroactivity test will flag
                            this as a problem)... however, the Feat and the Benefits will *not*
                            disappear from the active character (if using PRE:), even if a
                            violation is flagged.

                            If the gloves go back on, then the Feat will reappear (I think this
                            means Equipment must be virtually applied at level 0 when active
                            object construction is performed - I'll need to explain this in the
                            arch doc)

                            However, as the theory stands, the Feat and benefits *will* appear on
                            the character sheet if the gloves come off.

                            TP.
                          • Eddy Anthony
                            ... It sure is possible. While you can t .CLEAR a BONUS tag you can add a counter bonus to that would negate it, in this case you would add a counter bonus and
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 29, 2007
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                              kevin_fernandes01453 scribed:

                              >> There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL and
                              >> typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed from
                              > the
                              >> SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.
                              >
                              > At first I was going to say "How can the FAQ be non-OGL? You must
                              > wrong!", but thinking better of it :) I just double checked and sure
                              > enough, right at the bottom of the first page it states clearly "This
                              > Wizards of the Coast game product contains no Open Game Content".
                              > WOW, I would have never guessed that the FAQ was non-OGL!!...
                              >
                              > LOL.
                              >
                              > Is it possible, given your suggestion, to create a user mod for this
                              > without affecting the SRD and RSRD implementation in PCGen?

                              It sure is possible. While you can't .CLEAR a BONUS tag you can add a
                              counter bonus to that would negate it, in this case you would add a counter
                              bonus and PRE tag it with the reverse of the feats prereq like so:

                              Two Weapon Fighting.MOD
                              BONUS:COMBAT|TOHIT-PRIMARY|-2|!PRESTAT:1,DEX=15
                              BONUS:COMBAT|TOHIT-SECONDARY|-6|!PRESTAT:1,DEX=15

                              --
                              ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                              ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp, OS Tamarin
                            • Stefan Radermacher
                              ... The FAQ is not really needed as it only gives an interpretation. The rule is right there in the SRD under Feats/Prerequisites (emphasis mine): Some feats
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 31, 2007
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                                Eddy Anthony wrote:

                                > There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL and
                                > typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed from the
                                > SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.

                                The FAQ is not really needed as it only gives an interpretation. The
                                rule is right there in the SRD under Feats/Prerequisites (emphasis mine):

                                "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated
                                ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other
                                quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can
                                gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

                                *A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.*"


                                Regards,
                                Stefan.
                              • Frank Kliewe
                                ... You are right. That or a similar text appears in RSRD, SRD and MSRD. Could a TM please create a Data Bug tracker for this. Cheerio, Frank Kliewe PCGen
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 2, 2007
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                                  On 8/31/07, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...> wrote:
                                  > Eddy Anthony wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL and
                                  > > typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed from the
                                  > > SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.
                                  >
                                  > The FAQ is not really needed as it only gives an interpretation. The
                                  > rule is right there in the SRD under Feats/Prerequisites (emphasis mine):
                                  >
                                  > "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated
                                  > ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other
                                  > quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can
                                  > gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
                                  >
                                  > *A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.*"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Stefan.
                                  >

                                  You are right. That or a similar text appears in RSRD, SRD and MSRD.
                                  Could a TM please create a Data Bug tracker for this.


                                  Cheerio,

                                  Frank Kliewe
                                  PCGen Content Silverback

                                  --
                                  I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of
                                  it as... therapy.
                                  (The Joker in "Batman", 1989)
                                • Tir Gwaith
                                  ... Wouldn t this need code first? -- Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 2, 2007
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                                    > You are right. That or a similar text appears in RSRD, SRD and MSRD.
                                    > Could a TM please create a Data Bug tracker for this.

                                    Wouldn't this need code first?

                                    --
                                    Tir Gwaith
                                    PCGen LST Chimp
                                  • Frank Kliewe
                                    ... We could create that without Code support but it would be painful, so I agree that we should discuss a Spec. I don t want that behaviour hardcoded, as we
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 2, 2007
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                                      On 9/3/07, Tir Gwaith <Tir.Gwaith@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > You are right. That or a similar text appears in RSRD, SRD and MSRD.
                                      > > Could a TM please create a Data Bug tracker for this.
                                      >
                                      > Wouldn't this need code first?
                                      >

                                      We could create that without Code support but it would be painful, so
                                      I agree that we should discuss a Spec. I don't want that behaviour
                                      hardcoded, as we may encounter different behaviour in other games. one
                                      example being my house rules. :P

                                      So that still means a Data Bug should be entered. Priority set to 3,
                                      as that marks those trackers that are in need of a Spec.


                                      Cheerio,

                                      Frank Kliewe
                                      PCGen Content Silverback

                                      --
                                      I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of
                                      it as... therapy.
                                      (The Joker in "Batman", 1989)
                                    • Andrew Maitland
                                      Okay, I think I caught up... DATA Bug: [ 1786951 ] Ability Score pre-req for Feats
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Sep 3, 2007
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                                        Okay, I think I caught up...

                                        DATA Bug:


                                        [ 1786951 ] Ability Score pre-req for Feats

                                        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1786951&group_id=25576&atid=750091

                                        SPEC Tracker:


                                        [ 1786953 ] Abilitity Score PRE-REQ for Feats

                                        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1786953&group_id=25576&atid=837763

                                        Frank Kliewe wrote:
                                        > On 9/3/07, Tir Gwaith <Tir.Gwaith@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>> You are right. That or a similar text appears in RSRD, SRD and MSRD.
                                        >>>
                                        >> > Could a TM please create a Data Bug tracker for this.
                                        >>
                                        >> Wouldn't this need code first?
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > We could create that without Code support but it would be painful, so
                                        > I agree that we should discuss a Spec. I don't want that behaviour
                                        > hardcoded, as we may encounter different behaviour in other games. one
                                        > example being my house rules. :P
                                        >
                                        > So that still means a Data Bug should be entered. Priority set to 3,
                                        > as that marks those trackers that are in need of a Spec.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Cheerio,
                                        >
                                        > Frank Kliewe
                                        > PCGen Content Silverback
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of
                                        > it as... therapy.
                                        > (The Joker in "Batman", 1989)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                        > PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
                                        > PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
                                        > PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                        > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
                                        > PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        -- Andrew
                                        Tracker & Data Tamarin, Docs Lemur



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Mark St. Thomas
                                        ... and ... from the ... indicated ... other ... can ... prerequisite. ... prerequisite.* ... If that s the case how do you handle this situation: in a
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Eddy Anthony wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL
                                          and
                                          > > typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed
                                          from the
                                          > > SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.
                                          >
                                          > The FAQ is not really needed as it only gives an interpretation. The
                                          > rule is right there in the SRD under Feats/Prerequisites (emphasis
                                          mine):
                                          >
                                          > "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
                                          indicated
                                          > ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or
                                          other
                                          > quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character
                                          can
                                          > gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the
                                          prerequisite.
                                          >
                                          > *A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a
                                          prerequisite.*"
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          > Stefan.
                                          >
                                          If that's the case how do you handle this situation: in a certain
                                          supplement there's a feat I shall call SWM that has a prerequisite
                                          that WIS is 13+. Part of SWM reduces WIS by 2 which means that if
                                          the INT is at 13 or 14 SWM would normally be dropped. However, the
                                          text of SWM says that any loss to WIS due to this feat or any future
                                          WIS loss you would still retain the feat.
                                        • Stefan Radermacher
                                          I would encode this as follows: PREMULT:1,[PRESTAT:1,WIS=13],[PREFEAT:1,SWM] This means the prerequisite is filled if a) Wisdom is at least 13 or b) you have
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                            I would encode this as follows:

                                            PREMULT:1,[PRESTAT:1,WIS=13],[PREFEAT:1,SWM]

                                            This means the prerequisite is filled if a) Wisdom is at least 13 or b)
                                            you have the feat.

                                            Regards,
                                            Stefan.

                                            Mark St. Thomas wrote:
                                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Radermacher <radermacher@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >> Eddy Anthony wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> There is also the source of the clarification, the FAQ is not OGL
                                            > and
                                            >>> typically the data team tries to stick with what can be gleamed
                                            > from the
                                            >>> SRD. At any rate it's Franks call as to how to handle this.
                                            >> The FAQ is not really needed as it only gives an interpretation. The
                                            >> rule is right there in the SRD under Feats/Prerequisites (emphasis
                                            > mine):
                                            >> "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
                                            > indicated
                                            >> ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or
                                            > other
                                            >> quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character
                                            > can
                                            >> gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the
                                            > prerequisite.
                                            >> *A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a
                                            > prerequisite.*"
                                            >>
                                            >> Regards,
                                            >> Stefan.
                                            >>
                                            > If that's the case how do you handle this situation: in a certain
                                            > supplement there's a feat I shall call SWM that has a prerequisite
                                            > that WIS is 13+. Part of SWM reduces WIS by 2 which means that if
                                            > the INT is at 13 or 14 SWM would normally be dropped. However, the
                                            > text of SWM says that any loss to WIS due to this feat or any future
                                            > WIS loss you would still retain the feat.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > PCGen's Release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                            > PCGen's Wiki: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/
                                            > PCGen's Roadmap: http://pcgen.wiki.sourceforge.net/Roadmap
                                            > PCGen's Alpha Build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                                            > PCGen's Online Docs: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/
                                            > PCGen's Data Help Grp: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Tir Gwaith
                                            ... With the planned REQ / PRE proposal, we d leave it PRESTAT (only check at taking feat). -- Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                              > If that's the case how do you handle this situation: in a certain
                                              > supplement there's a feat I shall call SWM that has a prerequisite
                                              > that WIS is 13+. Part of SWM reduces WIS by 2 which means that if
                                              > the INT is at 13 or 14 SWM would normally be dropped. However, the
                                              > text of SWM says that any loss to WIS due to this feat or any future
                                              > WIS loss you would still retain the feat.

                                              With the planned REQ / PRE proposal, we'd leave it PRESTAT (only check
                                              at taking feat).


                                              --
                                              Tir Gwaith
                                              PCGen LST Chimp
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