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BoD log - 1/17/07

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  • Paul W. King
    [21:00] well, i have 9PM EST, so let s go [21:00] let s alphabetically [21:00] Architecture - Go [21:01]
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 17, 2007
      [21:00] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, i have 9PM EST, so let's go
      [21:00] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> let's alphabetically
      [21:00] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Architecture - Go
      [21:01] <[Data_Second]mosat> I guess he did that to put Tom on the spot :-)
      [21:01] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Yep, drop the new guy in at the deep end without
      and example - nice :)
      [21:01] <[Data_Second]mosat> I thinkit's the first meeting Tom's been in?
      [21:02] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Well, Version 0.2 of the arch spec is out for
      [21:02] <[Data_Second]mosat> So welcome Tom :-D
      [21:02] <[Content_SB]Frank> must be that Bavarian blood in Paul
      [21:02] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> The major issue that still needs to be resolved is
      order of operations - that's pretty complicated
      [21:02] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> what better way to get Tom acclimated to how
      things go :D
      [21:03] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> e.g. if you apply a template to a 4th level
      character, what is retroactive and what is not?... I'll need to take that
      discussion to _experimental, but need to get it clearly articulated first
      [21:03] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> (and it's not like I haven't read BoD logs, guys)
      [21:03] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> generally would like feedback if people have read
      the CDOM spec - only heard back from Aaron
      [21:04] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> not much else from me, any questions?
      [21:04] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i've perused the DCOM doc, but haven't really dug
      into its guts
      [21:04] <[Data_Second]mosat> I forgot, this used to be a SECRET society ;-)
      [21:04] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> CDOM even
      [21:04] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> I've skimmed it, and a bunch goes a bit over my
      [21:04] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> yea, definitely needs more diagrams, esp for some
      of the use cases
      [21:04] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> that's kinda on the to do list
      [21:05] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> now, from my grad days, are we talking use cases
      like in UML?
      [21:06] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i haven't done any C/C++ programming in quite some
      time, but i still recall the basics
      [21:06] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> well, use cases as in "how does granting class
      skills look in the data model"
      [21:06] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> ah.
      [21:07] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> There are enough weird items that I find it more
      useful to explain them that way than get overblown in a really formal
      spec... once it's overly formal, its unreadable, IMHO
      [21:07] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> that can be tricky, because users don't always
      click things in the order they expect them to work.
      [21:08] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> that's my concern with order of operations - if you
      apply a Template at 4th level, should the Hit Die be retroactive (probably),
      but should the class skills also be (probably not)... it's a really hard nut
      to crack
      [21:08] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Following you there. Ok, so that's what's being
      worked on. :)
      [21:08] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> I want to avoid a rule for each token and try to
      find a general solution, it's just the one thing I haven't thought about
      enout yet
      [21:08] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> yea
      [21:09] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> I think that's it from Arch
      [21:11] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> moving on then
      [21:11] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Code - go
      [21:12] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> 5.10.2 - code changes comepleted - waiting on me
      to get the time to do the RC1 release. Release will be in the same format as
      5.11.x as it is so much quicker and easier to do
      [21:12] <[OGL]PaulG> Did you get ahold of Barak to let him know?
      [21:13] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Ability Object - Choosers are the only main
      outstanding issue. I've fixed up a couple of little bugs that have been
      holding Eddy up. I'll let him give the report on that work.
      [21:13] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I've posted to the BoD list and he has seen that.
      No direct email though
      [21:14] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Oh I should have mentioned that there is an
      autobuild availabel for 5.10.x now- go to the autobuild reports to find
      that - I haven't changed the pointer from the autobuild page on the main
      site yet
      [21:14] <[OGL]PaulG> K, he doesn't always check the forum, but I've been
      seeing more of him since Nov 30 :)
      [21:15] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Other progress - Tom has been doing a lot of
      cleanup work in advance of CDOM - deprecating old syntax etc. There have
      been a few bugs fixed and libraries updated. Our bug list is growing but
      most of the new ones have been raised by code monkeys seeing bugs in code
      rather than user issues.
      [21:16] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Any questions?
      [21:17] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> I'm finally getting back to ppl on bugs I've
      raised, so that will help for stability, hopefully.
      [21:17] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Oh and the 5.11.7 release might be delayed a week
      so that I can get the 5.10.2RC1 release done - not sure I'll have time to do
      two in the next few days
      [21:18] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i have no problems with that
      [21:18] <[Content_SB]Frank> Just a comment on RC1, when that is out we
      should probably post on the CMP forums to ask people to test it, not only on
      our list.
      [21:18] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> personally, i'd rather get 5.10.2RC out then our
      next alpha
      [21:18] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i can take care of that
      [21:18] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Good point Frank
      [21:18] <[OGL]PaulG> Yes I'll 2nd that thought :)
      [21:19] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Any more questions? If not I think that's all
      from me.
      [21:21] * [Content_SB]Frank has quit IRC (diamond.hub.dal.net
      [21:22] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, i was going to move to Frank, but he just
      [21:22] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Eddy, what can you tell us?
      [21:22] <[Data_Second]mosat> I got some notes
      [21:22] <[Data_Second]mosat> I've finished updating the Reach weapons to use
      the new code (where apropriate) and modified the standard OS to display it
      [21:22] <[Data_Second]mosat> We will still need to alter some of the other
      sheet to display it including the PDF sheets
      [21:22] * [Content_SB]Frank has joined #PCGen
      [21:22] <[Data_Second]mosat> I may take the oportunity to try and learn how
      to code in PDF templates (if I find some time somewhere :p )
      [21:23] <[Data_Second]mosat> I've finished updating the data to use the new
      Companion Mod code, all the companions in the repository should be
      functioning now barring any errors on my part
      [21:23] <[Data_Second]mosat> I've committed the data to convert the Salient
      Divine Abilities to Ability Objects, it's working good since James last
      [21:23] <[Data_Second]mosat> The next step will be creating an output block
      for it in the html sheet which I will do next
      [21:23] <[Data_Second]mosat> We need to start a thread on experimental to
      formulate our plan for implementing this, it looks like a fairly massive
      overhaul so we need to discuss standards and such
      [21:23] <[Data_Second]mosat> And that's what I've been up to, I'll turn the
      floor back to Frank since he's back
      [21:24] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> definitely
      [21:24] <[Content_SB]Frank> Yeah, a net split, but looks like I'm the only
      one on a different server.
      [21:25] <[Content_SB]Frank> You're waiting for the Content Report?
      [21:25] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> yep
      [21:25] <[Data_Second]mosat> It looks pretty good actually, he way it is
      coded we can have a tab for things like Special qualities which you either
      have or don't which displays the Ability without letting you add or remove
      [21:25] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Eddy gave us a rundown of what he's been up to
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> CONTENT REPORT
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> OS - no activity
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> There are 3 OS Bugs and at least 6 OS Freqs that
      would be good to be completed for the stable release.
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> DOCS - good activity here after the holidays
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> Terry FitzSimons has documented REPEATLEVEL in
      templates,ALTCRITMULT,KEY, and did improvements on existing objects
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> Eddy has documented COMPANIONMOD,QUALIFY, and
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> Currently there are 10 Doc Bugs and also 10 Docs
      Freqs to be implemented (not counting the 8 Freqs for LST file/OS File
      classes) - one of these (Linux command line documentation) will need input
      from Code and/or an experienced Linux user.
      [21:27] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Assign the Linux one to me, I have a machine I can
      test it on
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> Cool. Will do that. :)
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> DATA - some activity here as well
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> Eddy continued to set up the new COMPANIONMOD
      syntax in our data, and did improvements on Players Guide to Arcanis, he's
      now working on converting the RSRD Salient Divine Abilities to use the
      Ability Object. That will be the first use of the Ability Object in our
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> I have changed all occurences of QUALIFY to the
      new syntax, updated MSRD Reach Weapons to the new syntax (Eddy had done that
      before for SRD & RSRD), and busted 6 bugs. Somehow I feel like I'm under a
      curse for the last 6+ weeks. Those days that I would usually have the most
      time to work on PCGen, almost always some minor shit happens in RL that cuts
      into my time. :(
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> Currently there are 3 Data Bugs and 10 Data
      Freqs open at P7+ (not counting the LST converter name change tracker)
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> NEW SOURCES - Green Ronin: Psychic's Handbook -
      was re-entered to SVN today
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> Privateer Press - Iron Kingdoms Character
      Guide - Question for Paul G.: Are you still waiting for OGL scans?
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> Green Ronin: Advanced Players Manual - Awaiting
      OGL review
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> The Games Mechanics - Modern Magic Vol.1 -
      Awaiting OGL review
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> Secular Games - Shadows of Shinobi - was only
      just finished by Paul K.
      [21:28] <[Content_SB]Frank> I think it will be best if we handle new
      datasets like last cycle and do the data reviews and enter them in the Beta
      phase, so we can concentrate for now on Freqs and maybe new sources.
      [21:28] <[OGL]PaulG> Yes, It's kinda slipped my mine
      [21:29] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> I think I can do Iron Kingdoms OGL scans
      [21:29] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> I remember seeing them in the move, and it must be
      in the last Gameing box that I haven't unpacked
      [21:30] <[Content_SB]Frank> That was my report. Questions?
      [21:32] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Only one from me - Frank, could you put an entry
      about the new source into the changes.xml file please?
      [21:32] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Oh and I'm really happy to see the Ability object
      in use and working now!
      [21:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> Will do that, James. I usually wait til the
      Friday before the release with that, to do it in one go.
      [21:33] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Not a bad idea
      [21:35] <[Content_SB]Frank> Question for Tir, since we have him around: Is
      there still a chance that we might see a partial Unearthed Arcana set? We
      will probably go Beta End of Feb.
      [21:36] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Yes. I've learned my Tracker hidden feats was
      actually the wrong way to go. I plan on having Alternate classes available
      starting late next week. Just need to figure out how we are doing the OGL
      review, etc. phase of the project.
      [21:37] <[Content_SB]Frank> I'd say let's see that we have the lst files
      available before Beta begins, the reviews can then happen in the Beta phase.
      [21:38] <[Data_Second]mosat> well if you pull the tracker hidden feats out
      of the RSRD look in the SRD too, I implemented your setup for companions
      over there when I was updating that stuff
      [21:38] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Ok, I'll try and get the first group ZIP up to _Exp
      before next weekend (prob. the 26th)
      [21:39] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Yeah, I saw. Just the holder feats with
      BONUS:blah|blah|CL=whatever stuff is bad. won't be hard to undo
      [21:40] <[Data_Second]mosat> So I just wrapped my brain around why you did
      that in the first place, why the reversal?
      [21:40] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Sorry. I thought it was a great idea. Then found
      out it was more of a PITA than it was worth - made things worse, not easier.
      [21:41] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> I'm trying to make things easier for newbies to
      make modifications, not harder, and that's what the tracker feats did,
      [21:42] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> and we are getting a bit off-topic for a BoD
      meeting..... Any other Qs?
      [21:42] <[Data_Second]mosat> not from me :-)
      [21:42] <[Content_SB]Frank> I'll make a post to you guys, I think this a
      good time to have another Data team meeting soon.
      [21:43] <[Data_Second]mosat> good idea
      [21:43] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> very good idea.
      [21:43] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Ok, I actually have to split. Don't want to be
      late picking up Angie....
      [21:43] <[Data_Second]mosat> have a good one
      [21:43] <[LM]Tir-Gwaith> Laters all.
      [21:43] * [LM]Tir-Gwaith is now known as [AFK]Tir-Gwaith
      [21:43] <[Content_SB]Frank> Cya
      [21:43] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> is that it for Content?
      [21:44] <[Content_SB]Frank> If there are no further questions, yes.
      [21:44] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> alright, on to PR
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i've recently emailed Kosala at Silven to see how
      things are going with him and to see if there's anything else we can do for
      his sponsorship
      [21:46] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> a user was able to get me the email of an S&SS
      person, so i'll email them shortly on the 3.5 conversions for S&SS stuff
      [21:46] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i haven't seen/heard from Brian recently...has
      anyone talked to him
      [21:47] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i know he was planning on emailing publishers, but
      that's the last i heard from him
      [21:48] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> that's all i have
      [21:48] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Paul G, do you have anything on the OGL front?
      [21:50] <[OGL]PaulG> Not really, I've been meaning to clear the current
      back-log of OGL issues, but it's model change at my dayjob and I've been
      cleaning out the basement because we have a small water leak. :(
      [21:53] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> on to open issues then
      [21:53] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i don't have any
      [21:53] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> does any have anything else they'd like to
      [21:53] <[OGL]PaulG> Has anyone gotten back with Vascant?
      [21:53] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Just a question regarding the roadmap - is this
      still being maintained?
      [21:53] <[Data_Second]mosat> Yes
      [21:54] <[Data_Second]mosat> I'm keeping it updated anyway
      [21:54] <[Data_Second]mosat> not sure how Kar sets the scope so right now
      everything is listed on 5.1
      [21:54] <[Data_Second]mosat> er 5.11.7
      [21:54] <[Data_Second]mosat> when we release that I'll move the open one's
      to 5.11.8
      [21:55] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I ask as some of the code bugs completed info
      seems out of date
      [21:55] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Sounds good
      [21:55] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i've emailed him that he understood our
      discussions correctly
      [21:55] <[Data_Second]mosat> when he gets back he can work it out
      [21:55] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i haven't heard anything back from him though
      [21:55] <[Data_Second]mosat> but it will be up to date
      [21:55] <[Data_Second]mosat> popped his head in a few days back
      [21:55] <[Data_Second]mosat> but he said he'd be gone til Feb
      [21:55] <[OGL]PaulG> hehe I just found a Mynex rant from three years ago :)
      [21:55] <[Content_SB]Frank> Some us have probably seen that note from
      Sourceforge that we have exceeded our SVN quota. Has anyone reacted to that?
      [21:55] <[Data_Second]mosat> I'll bet thats a riot
      [21:56] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> re SF note - that will be due to the prod
      autobuild goping up on the prject space.
      [21:56] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I'll clean out some old autobuilds, but we need
      to get Devon to clear some old files he has from the SVN migration
      [21:57] <[Content_SB]Frank> should we file a support freq with sourceforge
      for more space?
      [21:57] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i saw the note, but i don't even know where to
      begin with file clean-ups
      [21:57] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> that might not be a bad idea Frank
      [21:57] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> We should try and clear up the files first - see
      how much space really need
      [21:57] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i've seen a couple "over limit" emails from SF
      before now
      [21:58] <[Content_SB]Frank> It's my first, so I don't know how they are
      going to react. :/
      [21:59] <[Data_Second]mosat> Hey I wanted to throw out a thank you to the
      code monkeys...
      [21:59] <[Data_Second]mosat> The warnings in the console, the deprecated
      tags and especially the duplicate object warnings! those are wonderful
      [21:59] <[Data_Second]mosat> All that really helps the data team, we sure
      appreciate it.
      [22:00] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Thanks Eddy - that's good to hear
      [22:00] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> So a preview from the Arch side of Code - hopefully
      in a month or so, I'll have a framework that can test references to ensure
      they are valid
      [22:01] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> You've seen some bugs from my early versions
      already (those are the items I've spotted in SRD and RSRD)
      [22:01] <[Data_Second]mosat> my jaw dropped when I saw that first duplicate
      warning, I'd asked Eric is prettylst could do that years back, he couldn't
      so I'm glad you guys did :-)
      [22:01] <[Content_SB]Frank> Yeah, that's really nice. SPeaking of which, the
      duplicate object warnings are not yet implemented in equipment?
      [22:01] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> I won't be able to check it into the 5.11 cycle,
      since it's too different, but we'll figure out a place for a stand-alone
      [22:01] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Frnka, I'd have to check
      [22:02] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Sounds good Tom
      [22:02] <[Content_SB]Frank> I had some reports of double equipment objects
      from Tom, and I didn't see them show up as warning. That's why I asked.
      [22:03] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> PL will generate a report of various tags that you
      can look through for duplicates
      [22:03] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i can't recall the flag ATM, but i know its in
      there as i've used it before
      [22:04] <[Content_SB]Frank> Pl can give you a xreference, but then you have
      to look through it yourself. The nice thing about the warnings is that they
      explicitely point the duplicates out.
      [22:06] <[Data_Second]mosat> Frank, equipment duplicates are checked, I
      corrected a duplicate Whip found in the RSRD yesterday
      [22:07] <[Data_Second]mosat> this might be new, I build from the current
      code base
      [22:08] <[Content_SB]Frank> Well, maybe I'm mistaken. But I think I had some
      duplicates loaded in equipment without seeing a warning.
      [22:08] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Equipment is definitely tested for duplicates, as
      Modern is causing a bunch of them in the Elwood Unit Test
      [22:09] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Oh, but the code won't catch a duplicate in the
      same file
      [22:09] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> regardless of type
      [22:09] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> why won't it catch in the same file?
      [22:09] <[Data_Second]mosat> ah, a caveat :-(
      [22:09] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> we need to revisit that if we want that in 5.11
      [22:10] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> not sure why, I just know that's the case from the
      Sapphire example from either SRD or RSRD that I found
      [22:10] <[Content_SB]Frank> Yeah, that was probably the rub. The scrolls
      were in the same file.
      [22:10] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> I'll open a FREQ on it, see what I can find
      [22:12] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, i certainly don't want one item per file
      [22:12] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> :D we'll work to avoid that
      [22:13] <[Content_SB]Frank> But that would allow the user to really load
      only that data that they want. :p
      [22:13] <[Data_Second]mosat> lol
      [22:14] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> *snort*
      [22:14] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i know one of the suggestions on the various ENW
      threads was to have us move to db format instead of our text files
      [22:14] <[Data_Second]mosat> yuck
      [22:14] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> meaning a database?
      [22:14] <[OGL]PaulG> Yes I remember reading that
      [22:14] <[Data_Second]mosat> I like text files
      [22:15] <[Data_Second]mosat> doesn't that make it more difficult in the end?
      [22:15] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Regardless of preferences, we can't do that unless
      we can do a lot more to guarantee the editors will always work. We're not
      there today
      [22:15] <[Content_SB]Frank> wasn't it one of the requirements of the OGL to
      have the data in a readable format? Isn't db a cryptic format?
      [22:15] <[Data_Second]mosat> point
      [22:16] <[OGL]PaulG> I believe it is a req. I'll have to re-read the OGL
      (for like the billionth time).
      [22:17] <[OGL]PaulG> :)
      [22:17] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> OGC has to be "readable"...that's generally
      understood as "readable by a human", but that hasn't been challenged in
      [22:17] <[OGL]PaulG> It might have been a d20 req
      [22:17] <[Data_Second]mosat> I'm pretty sure that is corrcet
      [22:18] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> A db would be of limited benefit anyway, as we
      only use the text files too load and immediately coonvert them to an
      internal format
      [22:18] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> James: agreed
      [22:18] <[OGL]PaulG> Might be a quicker load though
      [22:18] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Is load really that slow?
      [22:19] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I do it a lot when testing and generally don't
      [22:19] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i know that load and leveling up is constantly
      mentioned as to why PCGen is so slow
      [22:19] <[Content_SB]Frank> I haven't done a defrag in over 6 months, for me
      it is slow.
      [22:19] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> and some of the folks say they've already upped
      the RAM allocations in the *.bat file
      [22:20] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i don't find it as slow as other folks state
      [22:20] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Interesting - Frank could you gfive some timings
      on what it takes now and what you would like to reach please?
      [22:20] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> ... and make sure to mention what you're loading :)
      [22:21] <[Data_Second]mosat> I think it depends on the machine, on my old G4
      mac it's slow as a dog
      [22:21] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Yeah that would be a good thing :) Also a version
      or SVN revision number please
      [22:21] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Note that running in a development environment (SVN
      directories) will impact at least boot time in a serious way
      [22:22] <[Content_SB]Frank> The initial startup already takes quite some
      time. Loading the sources when it's up not so much. But I think the initial
      startup may be what people talk about when they say loading.
      [22:22] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> This is due to the plugin search methodology that
      we use
      [22:22] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Again it woiiuld be interesting to track down the
      reaosn so that we can advise users on how too improve it
      [22:22] <[OGL]PaulG> Yes initial startup is slow
      [22:22] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> So I have a proposal to fix startup speed, because
      I think I know what at least 25% of it is
      [22:22] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> what's that Tom?
      [22:23] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> The current plugin architecture searches the entire
      classpath for plugins - that means they can be lots of places
      [22:23] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> it also means a LOT of jars get looked through for
      where files could be
      [22:23] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> if we restrict this and have a defined directory,
      that's a lot less JARs to decompose looking for .class files that implement
      our plugin interfaces
      [22:23] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Yes that's true
      [22:24] <[OGL]PaulG> Aren't they all in the plugins directory?
      [22:24] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> All of _ours_ are... I don't know how many there
      are that people have coded themselves
      [22:24] <[OGL]PaulG> Umm tough for them, they should put them where the rest
      are :)
      [22:25] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> that sounds like an excellent idea
      [22:25] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Well, that's James' call - as Code SB he owns the
      backward compatibility rules
      [22:25] <[Data_Second]mosat> yeah i would have assumed that would be the
      only place a plugin would work
      [22:25] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> we'll just need to make sure that it gets wide
      publication that plugins *have* to go in a certain directory path to be
      looked at
      [22:25] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> As long as we leave them with sensible options
      and advice on where to locate their own files I think that should be fine.
      [22:25] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> ok, I guess that's another FREQ I'll open :)
      [22:26] <[Data_Second]mosat> I'd even want it that way because I would
      expect it not to work if I took it out and moved it to the root level
      [22:26] <[OGL]PaulG> BTW james, could we make the filepaths in the ini files
      relative to where the program is like the data directory is for the lst
      [22:26] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> If for instance we had plugins/homebrew reserved
      for people's custom plugins it should be fine.
      [22:26] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> well, I'd say anything recursively under plugins
      should work
      [22:26] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> We could look at it Paul
      [22:27] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Yes it should work now, but if we said -"We
      guarantee we will never overwrite this directory" it would help
      [22:27] <[OGL]PaulG> I know of several people that keep PCGen on a flash
      drive and when the drive changes because of diff machine it's a pain.
      [22:27] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> Makes sense Paul
      [22:28] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I have a feeling we already have a FReq for that
      [22:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> oh yeah, my flash drive gets a different drive
      letter on the various computers i use it on
      [22:28] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> James: I see what you're saying - yes, that;s
      [22:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> a relative look would be great
      [22:29] <[OGL]PaulG> Well their plugin shouldn't get overwritten unless they
      replaced one with the distribution with their own with the same name
      shouldn't it?
      [22:30] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> No, but the uninstaller might delete the
      directory and all contained for instance
      [22:30] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> Right, if they overwrite one of our files, all bets
      are off
      [22:30] <[OGL]PaulG> Oh, I wasn't thinking of the uninstallers. I always do
      a manual download :)
      [22:31] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i do a manual install myself...but we have
      numerous users who go the installer route
      [22:31] * [AFK]Tir-Gwaith has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
      [22:31] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> I use the installers myself now
      [22:31] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> for my prod version of PCGen
      [22:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> I've actually never looked at the numbers. Can
      anyone say which get download more, the Installers or the manual files?
      [22:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> Just curious. :)
      [22:33] <[Data_Second]mosat> sure, the numbers are on the download page
      [22:33] <[Data_Second]mosat> windows installer 17985
      [22:33] <[Data_Second]mosat> full zip 11766
      [22:34] <[Data_Second]mosat> mac install 1828
      [22:34] <[CodeSB]jdempsey> So close to 2/3 use installers
      [22:34] <[Data_Second]mosat> and it looks like 393 folks have grabbed the
      Docs PDF since I put it up a few weeks back
      [22:35] <[OGL]PaulG> I wonder what it would cost to get that printed and
      bound in a 3-ring binder
      [22:35] <[OGL]PaulG> :)
      [22:36] <[Data_Second]mosat> take it to work and it's free, like staplers
      [22:37] <[OGL]PaulG> Anyway I need to get to bed. Anything anyone needs from
      me before I nod off?
      [22:37] <[Data_Second]mosat> same here
      [22:37] <[Content_SB]Frank> Not the time for good night kiss, then? ;)
      [22:38] <[Content_SB]Frank> Nothing further from me.
      [22:39] <[Arch_2nd]thpr> I'm set
      [22:40] <[OGL]PaulG> K, I'm off to nighty night then. Good meeting all,
      although it definitly missed Kar's soft-paws
      [22:40] <[Data_Second]mosat> night all
      [22:40] <[Content_SB]Frank> night, guys.

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