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BoD log - 1/3/07

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  • Paul W. King
    [21:07] well, let s get started [21:07] Code - go [21:07] Code Report [21:07] 1. I ve been
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 4, 2007
      [21:07] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, let's get started
      [21:07] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Code - go
      [21:07] <[CodeSB]James> Code Report
      [21:07] <[CodeSB]James> 1. I've been on a bug hunt over my holidays, code
      bugs down 25% (now hovering at 30) and the new ones seem to be being tackled
      very quickly too. More work is needed to get rid of the remaining older
      [21:07] <[CodeSB]James> 2. Per Christian Henden, a new developer, has been
      working on his first feature request, PREAGESET and that is going nicely.
      Great to see a new code monkey up and active :)
      [21:07] <[CodeSB]James> 3. Tom Parker has been working on a spec for CDOM
      with guidance from Devon. That is comoing along nicely and should be a good
      roadmap for our next prod release after 5.12.
      [21:07] <[CodeSB]James> 4. Ability object is getting closer, but I have
      found a glitch in that the TYPE= syntax isn't firing a chooser and FEAT
      category abilities were not being added into the noral FEAT lists. Working
      on those, but once done we will be able to close the main Ability FREQ.
      [21:08] <[CodeSB]James> Just grabbing stats for feature requests - any
      questions on the above?
      [21:08] <[OGL]PaulG> Sweet on #3 :)
      [21:09] <[CodeSB]James> Yes, the ability work has been badly hampered by
      there not being a spec
      [21:10] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i thought there was a spec for Ability?
      [21:11] <[CodeSB]James> 5. FREQ status - 51 P6 and above FREQs outstanding.
      Realisticly these won't all be in 5.12. We have 2 P9s and 5 P8s, these will
      definitely need to be completed before beta starts.
      [21:12] <[CodeSB]James> RE: Ability spec - Nothing consolidated or in a
      decent level of detail. Just discussions and a few FREQs. As such it has
      been hard to tell when everything is done, or if anything is left to do
      [21:14] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> ah, that makes sense
      [21:14] <[CodeSB]James> Oh and last things are that there has been recent
      discussion about making PCGen more user friendly, and discussion about a
      5.10.2 release. I beleive both of those are up for discussion later in this
      meeting though.
      [21:15] <[CodeSB]James> Any further questions? If not I am done.
      [21:16] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> no more Qs from me
      [21:17] <[Content_SB]Frank> Umm, yeah from me neither.
      [21:18] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Content - go
      [21:19] <[Content_SB]Frank> I believe I should continue and I just found
      that I have been pwned. When Windows just crashed it took my report with it.
      :( I'll give you what I can off the top of my head.
      [21:20] <[Content_SB]Frank> Activity since christmas wasn't overwhelming. OS
      is still sound asleep for the whole cycle.
      [21:21] <[Content_SB]Frank> Docs didn't see anything go in since christmas,
      but I hope that will change now since the holidays are over.
      [21:22] <[Content_SB]Frank> Data looks better. We have all but 1 of the new
      bugs crashed, that's 10 since christmas.
      [21:23] <[CodeSB]James> Are you putting those in the changes list Frank?
      [21:23] <[Content_SB]Frank> You mean as highlights? Or don't you
      autogenerate the list anymore?
      [21:24] <[CodeSB]James> As highlights, yes. They then get mentioned at the
      top of the release notes. The full list is still autogenerated
      [21:25] <[Content_SB]Frank> Freqs are going very slow. Tir has been without
      computer in December, I haven't yet heard back from him about the status of
      an Unearthed Arcana partial set.
      [21:26] <[Content_SB]Frank> I will look what can can be highlighted before
      the release James. Haven't done it yet.
      [21:26] <[CodeSB]James> Thanks
      [21:27] <[Content_SB]Frank> New sources: I had hoped that Brian would be
      here, because I would have liked to ask if he got anything new about
      permissions from Green Ronin. We now have two sets from them, Psychics
      Handbook and Advanced Player's Manual that are waiting for permission.
      [21:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i haven't heard from Brian in a while
      [21:28] <[Data_Second]mosat> I thought we had blanket perms from GR
      [21:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i'll need to check the logs about that Eddy
      [21:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i can't recall right now
      [21:29] <[Content_SB]Frank> On the Bod list I only found a message that
      Beaver would be meeting them the next day (way back) but that wasn't
      followed up.
      [21:30] <[Content_SB]Frank> I couldn't find a written statement about
      permission from them anywhere.
      [21:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> Hope that was good enough for report, I can't
      give you more at the moment. :(
      [21:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> Any questions?
      [21:33] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> has there been any more thought about my request
      about adding additional feats to a class' bonus list?
      [21:33] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i've bumped it several times now, and discussion
      has just died
      [21:34] <[OGL]PaulG> Here's info on Green Ronin
      [21:34] <[OGL]PaulG>
      [21:34] <[CodeSB]James> Great news about the bugs - nice to see we are
      getting those down
      [21:35] <[OGL]PaulG> I just found another bug sorry to say.
      [21:36] <[CodeSB]James> That's fine - reported bugs can be fixed :)
      [21:36] <[Content_SB]Frank> I know, I'm not happy about the slowness of that
      doscussion process per se. I might move to taking some stuff and do it on my
      own, but there are so many issues that I'm not familiar about, for instance
      all the needs of spells in that big discussion, so I want to keep many
      things there.
      [21:37] <[OGL]PaulG> KP, this is that modern issue isn't it?
      [21:37] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> its for a modern source, yes
      [21:37] <[OGL]PaulG> PrC gets bonus feats that add to any other's bonus
      [21:37] <[Data_Second]mosat> brb
      [21:37] <[OGL]PaulG> list I mean
      [21:38] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> no, if you take an MOS, any feat listed in the
      "bonus" section automatically becomes a bonus feat for all of your classes;
      base, advanced and prestige
      [21:39] <[OGL]PaulG> Right that's what I meant
      [21:39] <[OGL]PaulG> I just said PrC instead of MOS
      [21:39] <[OGL]PaulG> :)
      [21:39] <[OGL]PaulG> <-- doesn't play modern
      [21:40] <[Content_SB]Frank> I haven't played DnD in 2 years. And that shows
      when I have to make decisions. :(
      [21:40] <[OGL]PaulG> And I was at a complete loss on how to handle that.
      [21:41] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, we can keep that to Experimental...i just
      don't want it to die :)
      [21:41] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> other than that, i have no questions
      [21:41] <[OGL]PaulG> Essentially it soulds like each class needs a bonus
      feat "pool" that holds all the feats that it qualifies for and that pool
      should be able to be added to.
      [21:41] <[CodeSB]James> No further questions here.
      [21:42] <[Content_SB]Frank> I'll take another look at your issue. If I can
      speed it up I'll do it, Paul.
      [21:42] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> thanks
      [21:43] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i don't have any issues, and it sounds like we're
      clear on the GR front
      [21:43] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> so, on to the open agenda
      [21:43] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> 1) Vascant and Evolution
      [21:43] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> any more discussion on his request?
      [21:44] <[OGL]PaulG> I couldn't really tell from his website. Are they going
      to be retail software Evolution and DKK?
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> they're both going to be separate
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> Evolution will, initially, be the character
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> he's planning on adding additional functionality
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> DDK will be the toolkit to add/edit datasets
      [21:45] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> it will also hold the *.lst converter to whatever
      Evolution reads
      [21:48] <[Data_Second]mosat> back
      [21:48] <[OGL]PaulG> Right, really I don't see any problem letting him say
      that his converter is compatible. Although I might want to put a disclaimer
      that it might not be FULLY compatible, because there's some damn wierd data
      out there
      [21:49] <[OGL]PaulG> Personally I'd refer if the DDK was released as a free
      addition to Evolution because it is using data from a LPGL source
      [21:49] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> our data is OGL compliant, not LPGL compliant...so
      i'm a bit confused by your statement
      [21:50] <[OGL]PaulG> And I still think that PCGen's data can still be argued
      that it's a library under LGPL definition.
      [21:50] <[OGL]PaulG> I think of the data as both Data AND code
      [21:51] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> but we've never claimed the LGPL license over the
      data, only the OGL
      [21:51] <[OGL]PaulG> But that's been argued for a long time with no real
      [21:53] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> are there any other points of discussion?
      [21:54] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> do we want to allow Vascant to a) state his DDK
      can convert, though perhaps not fully, PCGen *.lst files and b) give
      blessing for him to distribute a converted SRD, RSRD and MSRD?
      [21:55] <[OGL]PaulG> My vote is aye
      [21:56] <[Content_SB]Frank> I have still very mixed feelings, but I'm
      slightly leaning to an aye.
      [21:56] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> what are your issues still Frank?
      [21:57] <[Content_SB]Frank> Well, if he charges money for the converted
      sets, that doesn't feel right.
      [21:58] <[Content_SB]Frank> I would like to see it pointed out, that he puts
      them in as a free bonus, or something like that.
      [21:58] <[OGL]PaulG> Well since they are OGL, any publisher can use them
      free of charge per the OGL
      [21:58] <[OGL]PaulG> He would just need to have our Sec. 15 wich can be
      extracted from the *.pcc file
      [21:59] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> from my conversations with him, he doesn't want to
      charge for datasets
      [21:59] <[Content_SB]Frank> My concern is about our team members. There are
      some that won't take it well.
      [21:59] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> the program will come bundled with the converted
      xRDs, but that's it
      [21:59] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> at least, how i understand things
      [22:00] <[Content_SB]Frank> You know what I'm talking about. Many Data
      Monkeys have worked on these sets, and some will feel like their work is
      being ripped off.
      [22:00] <[Content_SB]Frank> The only concern there is that somebody will
      charge for the data that others have worked on for free.
      [22:01] <[Content_SB]Frank> Therefore I would like to see it made clear,
      that he is not charging money for this data, that's all.
      [22:01] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> which is also why Vascant wants to give credit to
      PCGen for the work its done
      [22:02] <[Content_SB]Frank> I have no problem that he distributes it with
      his program.
      [22:02] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> as i said, Vascant doesn't want to charge for the
      data...he believes in free data
      [22:03] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> or i should say "I like free datasets"
      [22:03] <[Content_SB]Frank> I understand that, I just would like to see that
      clearly stated :)
      [22:03] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> gotcha
      [22:03] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> so, i'll go back to him and say that
      [22:04] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> a) the BoD doesn't have a problem with you
      claiming compatibility through your DDK converter
      [22:04] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> b) wants to make sure that the money paid for
      Evolution is for the program, not the datasets, since the PCGen data monkeys
      did the owrk for free
      [22:04] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> that about cover it?
      [22:05] <[Content_SB]Frank> I think so.
      [22:06] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> James? Eddy? Paul? any comments?
      [22:06] <[OGL]PaulG> No sounds okay to me
      [22:06] <[Data_Second]mosat> no, I'm OK with that
      [22:06] <[CodeSB]James> No comments from me
      [22:08] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> moving on then
      [22:08] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> 2) 5.10.2
      [22:08] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> James, that's pretty much in your court
      [22:08] <[CodeSB]James> ok
      [22:09] <[CodeSB]James> We currently have 2 possible bug fixes flagged for
      [22:09] <[CodeSB]James> 1. Multiple bonuses on feat not stacking when feat
      selected multiple times, and
      [22:09] <[CodeSB]James> 2. Internationalisation broken
      [22:10] <[CodeSB]James> I propose we limit the release as much as possible,
      to avoid a blow-out in time
      [22:11] <[OGL]PaulG> #1 is the issue that is blowing up CMP's Psionics isn't
      [22:11] <[CodeSB]James> Those two changes could be back ported from 5.11.6
      to th 5.10 branch probably after the 5.11.6 alpha this weekend
      [22:11] <[CodeSB]James> Yes
      [22:11] <[CodeSB]James> Depending on data fixes to be included, we could
      then do an RC build for testing
      [22:11] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> will those 2 bug fixes cause any other breakages
      that you know of?
      [22:12] <[Content_SB]Frank> If we want a quick fix then we could leave it at
      [22:12] <[OGL]PaulG> And I have another that might be an issue also, I'm
      testing in the alpha right now. Which would be nice to be back-ported to
      [22:12] <[CodeSB]James> Issue #1 has been round the traps multiple times. It
      will need to be thoroughly tested - I've done quite a bit, including
      permanent unit tests
      [22:12] <[CodeSB]James> but I would be more comfortable if one or more data
      monkeys give it a thorough work-out
      [22:15] <[CodeSB]James> There are lots of things it would be nice to
      backport, but I think we should be very circumspect about what we include to
      allow the release to be out quickly. :) However, Paul once you have it
      reported we can discuss it
      [22:16] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> so, 5.10.2 should definitely include the CMP issue
      and international issue
      [22:16] <[OGL]PaulG> :)
      [22:16] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> for simplicity's sake, we won't do data
      [22:16] <[OGL]PaulG> What was the issue with the International?
      [22:16] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> and if Paul G gets his act together ( :D ) we may
      include his other bug fix
      [22:16] <[CodeSB]James> You get english no matter what language you select
      in prefs :(
      [22:17] <[OGL]PaulG> Oh, I'd still like to see PCGen in Japanese, nothat
      that I'd understand it but it would be uber geeky
      [22:17] <[Content_SB]Frank> Anyone know how far CMP is with their
      conversions to 5.10 ? Are there files that haven't been converted yet and
      might bring forth more errors when they do so?
      [22:17] <[OGL]PaulG> I assume it's a simple fix other wise you wouldn't be
      suggesting it?
      [22:18] <[OGL]PaulG> 5.10 is complete
      [22:18] <[Data_Second]mosat> they are done as far as I know
      [22:18] <[OGL]PaulG> But there's LOTS of bugs going from 5.8 to 5.10
      [22:18] <[CodeSB]James> Yeah I've got it fixed in 5.11.x - it involves
      swapping aorund the order in which things are done on startup
      [22:18] <[OGL]PaulG> Simple things that have gotten lost. Chris has been
      posting on the forum on anything that is major
      [22:18] <[CodeSB]James> How do you mean Paul?
      [22:19] <[OGL]PaulG> Hence the double bonus
      [22:19] <[OGL]PaulG> Just things that he wasn't aware of or didn't have time
      to fully test
      [22:19] <[Content_SB]Frank> Then I think we should get back to Barak first,
      before we plan the first RC.
      [22:19] <[OGL]PaulG> Like the Sourcelong and Sourcepage being broken up and
      moved to the top of the lst file
      [22:20] <[OGL]PaulG> totally hoses the feats tab if it's set to Source/Name
      or Source/Type/Name
      [22:20] <[CodeSB]James> AH ok, so not lots of bugs in PCGen
      [22:20] <[OGL]PaulG> I would say aye to both
      [22:22] <[CodeSB]James> It would be interesting to get some stats, but it
      isn't something easy to do with SF's trackers
      [22:22] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> anything else on 5.10.2?
      [22:23] <[Content_SB]Frank> So if we don't get anything additional from
      Barak and leave it at code, would it be possible to have ann RC on the 14th
      [22:23] <[CodeSB]James> Yes I think that is possible
      [22:24] <[Content_SB]Frank> That sounds good from my POV. We can keep Data
      focussed on 5.11/12 and will test the issues you have with 5.10.2 once the
      RC is released. OK?
      [22:25] <[CodeSB]James> Sounds good
      [22:25] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> alrighty then...moving onwards
      [22:26] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> 3) ability object progress - back to James
      [22:26] <[OGL]PaulG> Ignore my bug James, it's in CMP's sets, not cod
      [22:26] <[OGL]PaulG> code
      [22:27] <[CodeSB]James> Ability object is getting closer, but I have found a
      glitch in that the TYPE= syntax isn't firing a chooser and FEAT category
      abilities were not being added into the noral FEAT lists. Working on those,
      but once done we will be able to close the main Ability FREQ.
      [22:28] <[CodeSB]James> So I think it should be done in the next few days,
      but as always, until we start using it in data we won't really know.
      [22:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> fair enough
      [22:28] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> so you think it'll take another alpha release
      before you think its done for data to play with it?
      [22:29] <[CodeSB]James> Oh, start playing now - so long as you play with
      ability categories other than feat you should be fine
      [22:30] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> there you go Frank, there's your marching orders
      [22:30] <[OGL]PaulG> Sounds like from the exp threads that he has some
      catching up to do :)
      [22:30] <[Content_SB]Frank> I wish I had the time for that at this moment.
      Eddy, wanna officially play?
      [22:30] <[Data_Second]mosat> I already have it on my plate :-)
      [22:31] <[Content_SB]Frank> :)
      [22:31] <[Data_Second]mosat> getting it in the docs and testing it out is
      priority 1
      [22:31] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> continuing onward th en
      [22:31] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> 4) Origins/GenCon presence
      [22:31] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> anyone going to either of these?
      [22:31] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i can't make Origins because a family reunion
      [22:31] <[Data_Second]mosat> I just type so much slower with the boy on my
      knee :D
      [22:32] <[OGL]PaulG> I'm pretty sure I'll be at HenCon
      [22:32] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> i have no idea about Origins yet
      [22:32] <[OGL]PaulG> Err GenCon
      [22:32] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> err...no idea about GenCon yet
      [22:32] <[Data_Second]mosat> I've been thinking about trying to make GenCon
      this year since the birth is now behind us
      [22:32] <[OGL]PaulG> I should get over to Origins at some point though, it's
      about the same distance for me :)
      [22:32] <[Content_SB]Frank> HenCon is where the chicks are. :)
      [22:33] <[OGL]PaulG> Oh, I bet my GF woudn't like me going to that one
      [22:33] <[OGL]PaulG> <EG>
      [22:33] <[Data_Second]mosat> probably can only aford one a year so probably
      won't make Origins
      [22:33] <[Content_SB]Frank> No chance to see me there. I wish I'd had the
      [22:33] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> so, you'll be making GenCon Europe then? :D
      [22:34] <[Data_Second]mosat> one of these years :-)
      [22:34] <[CodeSB]James> Both are a long way from Australia... so no
      appearance from me
      [22:34] <[Content_SB]Frank> Not even sure when GenCon Europe takes place.
      [22:34] <[Data_Second]mosat> how about that virtual Con? iCon, we can all
      make that :-D
      [22:34] <[OGL]PaulG> Well we missed UnCon
      [22:35] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> James, i seem to recall a GenCon Australia being
      discussed...or maybe it was in NZ
      [22:35] <[CodeSB]James> Yep, next year Gencon Oz will happen in Brisbane
      [22:36] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> cool
      [22:37] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, something to think about
      [22:37] <[CodeSB]James> Absolutely
      [22:37] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> if we can get a serious presense at one of the
      Cons, may be we can think about getting a booth?
      [22:37] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> or perhaps sharing one...with CMP and/or Silven?
      [22:38] <[OGL]PaulG> I would definitly like us to consider it
      [22:39] <[Data_Second]mosat> What we can do for sure is have several
      presentations during the show, and flyers and CD's
      [22:40] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> good point
      [22:41] <[OGL]PaulG> GRRRR can't reproduce the bug now
      [22:41] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> anything else on the Cons?
      [22:41] <[CodeSB]James> not from me
      [22:41] <[Content_SB]Frank> no
      [22:42] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> last item on the agenda then
      [22:42] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> 5) GUI overhaul - James?
      [22:43] <[CodeSB]James> ok there were two parts to the discussion on
      enworld - download page and gui friendliness
      [22:43] <[CodeSB]James> I can get an improved download page happening
      without too much trouble. Something that has buttons for our current prod
      version foir windows, Mac and other
      [22:44] <[CodeSB]James> Then less prominent links to the alphas, betas,
      autobuilds and SVN
      [22:44] <[CodeSB]James> The GUI issue is getting some good discusion on the
      developers list currently and I think we will come out of it with some good
      actions to take. It might be post 5.12 for any drastic changes, but its good
      to see it moving
      [22:45] <[CodeSB]James> Options under discussion rnage from entire new GUI
      from scratch, something skinable to simple but useful changes like +/-
      buttons and keys on the skills tab
      [22:45] <[CodeSB]James> That's about it so far - early days, but very
      intersting - any questions?
      [22:46] <[Content_SB]Frank> Just an observation: Looks to me like we will be
      moving to 5.14 and maybe 5.16 before we reach 6.0
      [22:47] <[CodeSB]James> 5.14 is possible, but hopefully not 5.16.
      [22:47] <[CodeSB]James> Un les of course we go for shorter release cycles
      [22:47] <[OGL]PaulG> I have a GUI thought. Devon was thinking about doing a
      character sheet interface based off of the preview page with dropdowns and
      similar things.
      [22:47] <[Content_SB]Frank> There seems just so much to be done.
      [22:48] <[CodeSB]James> It's another option Paul, yes
      [22:49] <[Content_SB]Frank> Abilities took 2 prodution cycles, I can't
      imagine that CDOM is easier to do.
      [22:50] <[CodeSB]James> Very true
      [22:51] <[CodeSB]James> There were long poeriods of nothign happening with
      abilities though - we lost momentum
      [22:52] <[Content_SB]Frank> Add to that the OS change, GUI change, LST
      syntax change and you'll see where my idea came from.
      [22:52] <[CodeSB]James> Yep
      [22:53] <[Content_SB]Frank> OK, won't change anything now. Err, where were
      we, before I interrupted? :)
      [22:54] <[CodeSB]James> Questions about GUI improvements :)
      [22:55] <[CodeSB]James> All quiet....
      [22:56] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> well, that should be about it then
      [22:56] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> and its been about 2 h ours
      [22:57] <[Content_SB]Frank> yeah
      [22:57] <[CodeSB]James> Next meeting on the 17th at 9pm EST?
      [22:57] <[OGL]PaulG> Sounds okay by me
      [22:58] <[Data_Second]mosat> sounds good
      [22:58] <[Content_SB]Frank> If Kar isn't there, somebody should set the
      calendar timer.
      [22:58] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> sounds about right
      [22:58] <[CodeSB]James> I'll set it up, or post if I don't have the
      [22:58] <[Content_SB]Frank> Cool
      [22:59] <[Data_Second]mosat> I gotta call it a night guys
      [22:59] <[Content_SB]Frank> Night Eddy.
      [22:59] <[PR_SB]kingpaul> night all
      [22:59] <[Data_Second]mosat> night
      [22:59] * [Data_Second]mosat has left #pcgen
      [22:59] * Disconnected
      Session Close: Wed Jan 03 22:59:55 2007

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