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Re: [pcgen] [Frank] [Chuck] Re: Output - XML

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  • Andrew Wilson
    ... Not accurate I m afraid. CMP are the current maintainers of ETools. They also produce PCGen data sets. They are a commercial organisation set up by some
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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      On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 09:18:59AM -0700, Keith Ratliff wrote:
      > Now question... As I understand it, PCGen and E-Tools are at their base
      > level done by the same folks yes? Is there an issue with creating the XML in
      > the same format as the E-Tools XML? Ideally, if this could be done, it would
      > allow all the E-Tools sheets that currently exist to be used with PCGen as
      > well.

      Not accurate I'm afraid. CMP are the current maintainers of ETools.
      They also produce PCGen data sets. They are a commercial organisation
      set up by some people who were very important in settig up the PCGen
      project, but these days they spend most of their time concentrating on
      the CMP end of things. Most of the code work on PCGen is done by
      volunteers (at least one of whom is connected to CMP, but mostly not).

      I suspect that the ETools optput format is copyright to Wotc. If anyone
      ahd permission to have PCGen produce the same output it would be CMP. I
      doubt that they have the time to tackly a project of that scale.

      To be honest I don't think this will ever happen.

      andrew
      --
      Gemini: (May 21 - June 21)
      The entire Southern region of the U.S. will fall in love with
      you overnight when you accidentally win three consecutive
      stock-car races.
    • karianna03
      Hi all, ... -I suspect that the ETools optput format is copyright to Wotc. If -anyone had permission to have PCGen produce the same output it would -be CMP.
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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        Hi all,

        >> Now question... As I understand it, PCGen and E-Tools are at their
        >> base level done by the same folks yes? Is there an issue with
        >> creating the XML in the same format as the E-Tools XML? Ideally, if
        >> this could be done, it would allow all the E-Tools sheets that
        >> currently exist to be used with PCGen as well.
        >
        > Not accurate I'm afraid. CMP are the current maintainers of ETools.
        > They also produce PCGen data sets. They are a commercial
        > organisation set up by some people who were very important in
        > setting up the PCGen project, but these days they spend most of
        > their time concentrating on the CMP end of things. Most of the code
        > work on PCGen is done by volunteers (at least one of whom is
        > connected to CMP, but mostly not).

        -I suspect that the ETools optput format is copyright to Wotc. If
        -anyone had permission to have PCGen produce the same output it would
        -be CMP. I doubt that they have the time to tackle a project of that
        -scale.

        -To be honest I don't think this will ever happen.

        I'm not too sure on this, in theory we'd need to gain permssion from
        CMP and WoTC (I think), we could get the Pauls to check, it maybe
        relatively easy to get permission

        K
      • Paul W. King
        ... I m fairly certain this is true, but I ll ask. Paul W. King PR SB, BoD
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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          > -I suspect that the ETools optput format is copyright to Wotc.

          I'm fairly certain this is true, but I'll ask.

          Paul W. King
          PR SB, BoD
        • Paul W. King
          ... When you say format, are you talking just sheet layout, or the desire to use the same variables as well? Paul W. King PR SB, BoD
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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            > Is there an issue with creating the XML in the same format as the
            > E-Tools XML? Ideally, if this could be done, it would allow all the
            > E-Tools sheets that currently exist to be used with PCGen as well.

            When you say format, are you talking just sheet layout, or the desire
            to use the same variables as well?

            Paul W. King
            PR SB, BoD
          • Keith Ratliff
            The XML format itself. My sheet has its own layout. Indeed I coded it 100% from scratch in notepad. That s just my style. But when I coded it, I used output
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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              The XML format itself.

              My sheet has its own layout. Indeed I coded it 100% from scratch in notepad.
              That's just my style.

              But when I coded it, I used output XML files from E-Tools to map out the
              sections of it. For example:

              Evaluating a Will Save:
              <xsl:value-of
              select="sum(saving-throws/saving-throw[name='Will']/modifiers/modifier[@name='feature'
              or @name='user']/@value)" />

              The source document has an XML Snippet:
              <saving-throws>
              <saving-throw>
              <name>Fortitude</name>
              <abbr>Fort</abbr>
              <ability>Con</ability>
              <modifiers>
              <modifier name="base" value="9"/>
              <modifier name="ability" value="2"/>
              <modifier name="magic" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feat" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="race" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="familar" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feature" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="user" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="misc" value="0"/>
              </modifiers>
              </saving-throw>
              <saving-throw>
              <name>Reflex</name>
              <abbr>Ref</abbr>
              <ability>Dex</ability>
              <modifiers>
              <modifier name="base" value="5"/>
              <modifier name="ability" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="magic" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feat" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="race" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="familar" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feature" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="user" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="misc" value="0"/>
              </modifiers>
              </saving-throw>
              <saving-throw>
              <name>Will</name>
              <abbr>Will</abbr>
              <ability>Wis</ability>
              <modifiers>
              <modifier name="base" value="9"/>
              <modifier name="ability" value="6"/>
              <modifier name="magic" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feat" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="race" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="familar" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="feature" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="user" value="0"/>
              <modifier name="misc" value="0"/>
              </modifiers>
              </saving-throw>
              </saving-throws>

              I would like to be able to recreate all of the base XML Document as an
              output style from PCGen. Just the XML. No other code, no other features.

              All other features of my sheet are 100% mine, implemented fully 100% by me,
              on my own time, with my own style, constructs, methods, etc. I was very
              careful not to even look at other sheets because I wanted my sheet to have a
              fresh look and feel, not a recreation of the same ol' same ol'. (Although
              how the sheet looks to the end user does have some basis in sticking with
              sheet layout standards)

              The question here is in structure of the XML. While XML itself isn't
              copyrighted by anyone, save conventions are (c) the W3C organization, the
              actual DSD (Document Style Definition) may be (c) E-Tools. I checked the
              license agreement for E-Tools already and it doesn't list the XML in any
              part, but it would be better to check with them I think than to just assume.

              --Keith


              On 9/8/06, Paul W. King <paulking.rhochi@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Is there an issue with creating the XML in the same format as the
              > > E-Tools XML? Ideally, if this could be done, it would allow all the
              > > E-Tools sheets that currently exist to be used with PCGen as well.
              >
              > When you say format, are you talking just sheet layout, or the desire
              > to use the same variables as well?
              >
              > Paul W. King
              > PR SB, BoD
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Edwin Holley
              ... I would suggest taking a look at the PCGen output sheet stuff, and making even brand spanking unique er character sheets :-). And ... putting
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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                <SNIP>
                > The question here is in structure of the XML. While XML itself isn't
                > copyrighted by anyone, save conventions are (c) the W3C organization, the
                > actual DSD (Document Style Definition) may be (c) E-Tools. I checked the
                > license agreement for E-Tools already and it doesn't list the XML in any
                > part, but it would be better to check with them I think than to just assume.
                >
                > --Keith
                >
                >
                > On 9/8/06, Paul W. King <paulking.rhochi@...> wrote:
                >
                >> > Is there an issue with creating the XML in the same format as the
                >>
                >>> E-Tools XML? Ideally, if this could be done, it would allow all the
                >>> E-Tools sheets that currently exist to be used with PCGen as well.
                >>>
                >> When you say format, are you talking just sheet layout, or the desire
                >> to use the same variables as well?
                >>
                >> Paul W. King
                >> PR SB, BoD
                >>
                I would suggest taking a look at the PCGen output sheet stuff, and
                making even "brand spanking unique" er character sheets :-). And ...
                putting them in the files section on the group. Who dosn't love new
                character sheets, especially unique ones (even better if they have
                pretty graphics, to impress the non-PCGen enabled (poor folks)).
              • Keith Ratliff
                Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet. Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even more features:
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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                  Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.

                  Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                  more features:

                  http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif

                  Now, if I can't duplicate the ETools XML output structure (IE, they say
                  "no") then I'll use the base.xml instead and make version 2 be PCGen only.

                  But as a character sheet designer, it would be ideal to be able to include
                  as many users as possible, and that means continuing to include the ETools
                  people. The best way I see to do that is to take the time (which I am
                  willing to do) to make a basic implementation of the same XML for PCGen.

                  If we get a "yes thats OK" response, that is exactly what I intend to do.

                  Truthfully, I already started, but if the no response comes through Ill
                  abandon it and go back to the sheet directly.

                  But I know that if the answer is PCGen only, then I will have a lot of
                  disappointed "customers" of my sheet who have been loyal supporters all
                  along. And while I technically owe them nothing (since its always been free)
                  I still feel bad about excluding them going forward.

                  --Keith

                  On 9/8/06, Edwin Holley <eholley@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > <SNIP>
                  >
                  > > The question here is in structure of the XML. While XML itself isn't
                  > > copyrighted by anyone, save conventions are (c) the W3C organization,
                  > the
                  > > actual DSD (Document Style Definition) may be (c) E-Tools. I checked the
                  > > license agreement for E-Tools already and it doesn't list the XML in any
                  > > part, but it would be better to check with them I think than to just
                  > assume.
                  > >
                  > > --Keith
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On 9/8/06, Paul W. King <paulking.rhochi@...<paulking.rhochi%40verizon.net>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> > Is there an issue with creating the XML in the same format as the
                  > >>
                  > >>> E-Tools XML? Ideally, if this could be done, it would allow all the
                  > >>> E-Tools sheets that currently exist to be used with PCGen as well.
                  > >>>
                  > >> When you say format, are you talking just sheet layout, or the desire
                  > >> to use the same variables as well?
                  > >>
                  > >> Paul W. King
                  > >> PR SB, BoD
                  > >>
                  > I would suggest taking a look at the PCGen output sheet stuff, and
                  > making even "brand spanking unique" er character sheets :-). And ...
                  > putting them in the files section on the group. Who dosn't love new
                  > character sheets, especially unique ones (even better if they have
                  > pretty graphics, to impress the non-PCGen enabled (poor folks)).
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Chuck Pint
                  ... only. ... include ... ETools ... to do. ... been free) ... Correct me if I m wrong, but you use a XML output from eTools, and then feed that to a xslt form
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Ratliff" <dracorat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.
                    >
                    > Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                    > more features:
                    >
                    > http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif
                    >
                    > Now, if I can't duplicate the ETools XML output structure (IE, they say
                    > "no") then I'll use the base.xml instead and make version 2 be PCGen
                    only.
                    >
                    > But as a character sheet designer, it would be ideal to be able to
                    include
                    > as many users as possible, and that means continuing to include the
                    ETools
                    > people. The best way I see to do that is to take the time (which I am
                    > willing to do) to make a basic implementation of the same XML for PCGen.
                    >
                    > If we get a "yes thats OK" response, that is exactly what I intend
                    to do.
                    >
                    > Truthfully, I already started, but if the no response comes through Ill
                    > abandon it and go back to the sheet directly.
                    >
                    > But I know that if the answer is PCGen only, then I will have a lot of
                    > disappointed "customers" of my sheet who have been loyal supporters all
                    > along. And while I technically owe them nothing (since its always
                    been free)
                    > I still feel bad about excluding them going forward.
                    >
                    > --Keith

                    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you use a XML output from eTools, and
                    then feed that to a xslt form to get the Output Sheet? If that's the
                    case, you should only have to rewrite base.xml on the PCGen side in
                    order to feed that into your xslt form. While it would be tedious, it
                    should be entirely possible to do (note that base.xml is a fairly big
                    file). Also, if that's all you do, then I don't see why you would need
                    anyone's permission. Note that under LGPL license PCGen is written
                    under, if you want to distribute your Output Sheet, you simply have to
                    offer it back to the project.

                    If I missed something, or have the wrong assumtions, I'm sure someone
                    will let me know...

                    Chuck
                    OS Chimp
                  • frank_kliewe
                    ... in ... their ... [snip] ... Hi Keith, I ve sent you a PM about joining the team. Please check your inbox. :) Cheerio, Frank Kliewe PCGen Content Silverback
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Ratliff" <dracorat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > OK I reviewed it and I'm up for it.
                      >
                      > See, I wasn't too sure about being up for it until I saw that I'd get
                      in
                      > good with Phylacteries United. I mean, who wouldn't want to disembody
                      their
                      > soul and store it in a jar?
                      >
                      > --- Why am I seeing so many hands held up?
                      >
                      > --- Imps.
                      >
                      [snip]
                      >
                      > --Keith
                      >

                      Hi Keith,

                      I've sent you a PM about joining the team. Please check your inbox. :)

                      Cheerio,

                      Frank Kliewe
                      PCGen Content Silverback

                      --
                      I don't think you understand. I didn't come to rescue Rambo from you. I
                      came here to rescue you from him.
                      (Col. Trautman in "First Blood", 1982)
                    • Keith Ratliff
                      ... permission. That pretty much is all I am asking for. The only reason I might need permission is that I am copying a structure created by a company. Thus,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 8, 2006
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                        > Also, if that's all you do, then I don't see why you would need anyone's
                        permission.

                        That pretty much is all I am asking for. The only reason I might need
                        permission is that I am copying a structure created by a company. Thus, it
                        might end up having been caught under some copyright clause somewhere. But I
                        do see it as minor since the structure isn't anything special or anything
                        with intellectual works in it.

                        I do have an email for a CMP person from when I used to be active on their
                        forums. I don't usually contact people directly but this might be cause to
                        do so.

                        Regardless, thanks for all the input folks. =) I gots me a sheet to
                        programme!

                        --Keith

                        On 9/8/06, Chuck Pint <pcgen2006@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com <pcgen%40yahoogroups.com>, "Keith Ratliff"
                        > <dracorat@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.
                        > >
                        > > Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                        > > more features:
                        > >
                        > > http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif
                        > >
                        > > Now, if I can't duplicate the ETools XML output structure (IE, they say
                        > > "no") then I'll use the base.xml instead and make version 2 be PCGen
                        > only.
                        > >
                        > > But as a character sheet designer, it would be ideal to be able to
                        > include
                        > > as many users as possible, and that means continuing to include the
                        > ETools
                        > > people. The best way I see to do that is to take the time (which I am
                        > > willing to do) to make a basic implementation of the same XML for PCGen.
                        > >
                        > > If we get a "yes thats OK" response, that is exactly what I intend
                        > to do.
                        > >
                        > > Truthfully, I already started, but if the no response comes through Ill
                        > > abandon it and go back to the sheet directly.
                        > >
                        > > But I know that if the answer is PCGen only, then I will have a lot of
                        > > disappointed "customers" of my sheet who have been loyal supporters all
                        > > along. And while I technically owe them nothing (since its always
                        > been free)
                        > > I still feel bad about excluding them going forward.
                        > >
                        > > --Keith
                        >
                        > Correct me if I'm wrong, but you use a XML output from eTools, and
                        > then feed that to a xslt form to get the Output Sheet? If that's the
                        > case, you should only have to rewrite base.xml on the PCGen side in
                        > order to feed that into your xslt form. While it would be tedious, it
                        > should be entirely possible to do (note that base.xml is a fairly big
                        > file). Also, if that's all you do, then I don't see why you would need
                        > anyone's permission. Note that under LGPL license PCGen is written
                        > under, if you want to distribute your Output Sheet, you simply have to
                        > offer it back to the project.
                        >
                        > If I missed something, or have the wrong assumtions, I'm sure someone
                        > will let me know...
                        >
                        > Chuck
                        > OS Chimp
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David M. Bebber
                        On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:09:20 -0500, Keith Ratliff ... I have a few questions about your sheet.... 1. The sample character is wearing
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 10, 2006
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                          On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:09:20 -0500, Keith Ratliff <dracorat@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.
                          >
                          > Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                          > more features:
                          >
                          > http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif
                          >
                          I have a few questions about your sheet....

                          1. The sample character is wearing Bracers of Armor +8 (Armor Bonus), and
                          a Ring of Protection (Deflection Bonus) but his Armor Bonus is a 0 in the
                          AC section... it's all lumped into the Misc. modifier box.

                          2. The sample character is a High Elf (Favored Class Wizard) Fighter 3 /
                          Cleric 6 / Wizard 5. The Wizard levels don't matter, however the 2 level
                          difference in Fighter / Cleric should give a 10% XP penalty... your sheet
                          shows a 20% XP penalty.

                          Nice sheet though... and welcome to the Jar.
                          --
                          Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                        • Keith Ratliff
                          Thanks! And both the errors you report were errors at the time in ETools. =) But good catch. There are few other errors on that screenshot too. I had people
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 10, 2006
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                            Thanks!

                            And both the errors you report were errors at the time in ETools. =)
                            But good catch. There are few other errors on that screenshot too. I
                            had people report them in the past, but I don't recall what they are
                            off the top of my head.

                            It is after all, a sample to show off what the sheet is, not what the
                            character is. =P

                            (Although one could argue that accuracy might be compromised. But I
                            made sure that my sheet is accurate in reporting, which it is, but the
                            source application has to be accurate in outputting, which I find PC
                            Gen to be. =] )

                            On 9/10/06, David M. Bebber <bebberd@...> wrote:
                            > On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:09:20 -0500, Keith Ratliff <dracorat@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.
                            > >
                            > > Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                            > > more features:
                            > >
                            > > http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif
                            > >
                            > I have a few questions about your sheet....
                            >
                            > 1. The sample character is wearing Bracers of Armor +8 (Armor Bonus), and
                            > a Ring of Protection (Deflection Bonus) but his Armor Bonus is a 0 in the
                            > AC section... it's all lumped into the Misc. modifier box.
                            >
                            > 2. The sample character is a High Elf (Favored Class Wizard) Fighter 3 /
                            > Cleric 6 / Wizard 5. The Wizard levels don't matter, however the 2 level
                            > difference in Fighter / Cleric should give a 10% XP penalty... your sheet
                            > shows a 20% XP penalty.
                            >
                            > Nice sheet though... and welcome to the Jar.
                            > --
                            > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                            >
                            >
                            > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            > PCGen's Wiki: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/pytw/#Welcome
                            > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                            > PCGen's Online Docs: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/docs/
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Keith Ratliff
                            Whoops! Follow up... PHB Page 60 - it is 20% per class, not 10 % so that part is right. As for the bracers, I totally agree their AC should have shown in the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 10, 2006
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                              Whoops! Follow up...

                              PHB Page 60 - it is 20% per class, not 10 % so that part is right.

                              As for the bracers, I totally agree their AC should have shown in the Armor box.

                              --Keith

                              On 9/10/06, Keith Ratliff <dracorat@...> wrote:
                              > Thanks!
                              >
                              > And both the errors you report were errors at the time in ETools. =)
                              > But good catch. There are few other errors on that screenshot too. I
                              > had people report them in the past, but I don't recall what they are
                              > off the top of my head.
                              >
                              > It is after all, a sample to show off what the sheet is, not what the
                              > character is. =P
                              >
                              > (Although one could argue that accuracy might be compromised. But I
                              > made sure that my sheet is accurate in reporting, which it is, but the
                              > source application has to be accurate in outputting, which I find PC
                              > Gen to be. =] )
                              >
                              > On 9/10/06, David M. Bebber <bebberd@...> wrote:
                              > > On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:09:20 -0500, Keith Ratliff <dracorat@...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Well, at issue here is that I have my own version of a character sheet.
                              > > >
                              > > > Here is how version 1 looked and I am working now on version 2 with even
                              > > > more features:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://keithratliff.com/sheet/rat_v1.gif
                              > > >
                              > > I have a few questions about your sheet....
                              > >
                              > > 1. The sample character is wearing Bracers of Armor +8 (Armor Bonus), and
                              > > a Ring of Protection (Deflection Bonus) but his Armor Bonus is a 0 in the
                              > > AC section... it's all lumped into the Misc. modifier box.
                              > >
                              > > 2. The sample character is a High Elf (Favored Class Wizard) Fighter 3 /
                              > > Cleric 6 / Wizard 5. The Wizard levels don't matter, however the 2 level
                              > > difference in Fighter / Cleric should give a 10% XP penalty... your sheet
                              > > shows a 20% XP penalty.
                              > >
                              > > Nice sheet though... and welcome to the Jar.
                              > > --
                              > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                              > > PCGen's Wiki: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/pytw/#Welcome
                              > > PCGen's alpha build: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/07_autobuilds.php
                              > > PCGen's Online Docs: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/docs/
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • David M. Bebber
                              On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:10:23 -0500, Keith Ratliff ... Doh, ya caught me on that one... my group RELIGIOUSLY avoids the XP penalty, so I
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 10, 2006
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                                On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:10:23 -0500, Keith Ratliff <dracorat@...>
                                wrote:

                                > Whoops! Follow up...
                                >
                                > PHB Page 60 - it is 20% per class, not 10 % so that part is right.
                                >
                                > As for the bracers, I totally agree their AC should have shown in the
                                > Armor box.
                                >
                                > --Keith
                                >

                                Doh, ya caught me on that one... my group RELIGIOUSLY avoids the XP
                                penalty, so I plead Nolo Contendre.
                                ;)

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