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RE: [pcgen] PCGen 5.10.1 and the CMP Datasets . . .

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  • Chris Chandler
    ... Err... No. I think you mis-interpreted what Kar meant. They were trying to fix code issues found that affected CMP sets, true, but it was NOT an effort to
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 2, 2006
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      > -----Original Message-----

      > It has been stated that one of the goals for 10.5.1, besides
      > the bug-fixes, was to improve compatibility with the 5.8.1
      > datasets from CMP.

      Err... No. I think you mis-interpreted what Kar meant.

      They were trying to fix code issues found that affected CMP sets, true, but
      it was NOT an effort to make CMP 5.8.1 datasets load in 5.10.1 without any
      changes.

      The fact of the matter is that there were massive changes from 5.8.1 to
      5.10.1 (some requested by CMP, some not) that means the CMP datasets need to
      be updated yet again (and some of the updates are not so simple... But we
      hope to automate some of them). Needless to say, this will not even be
      looked at until after Gencon at this point.

      > Is it safe to load my datasets on 5.10.1?

      See above, it won't work without some hacking on your part. Unless I
      mis-remember, you won't even be able to get a CMP gamemode to load because
      the gamemode structure was changed.

      Barak
    • Brass Tilde
      ... Hmmm. What an amazing thing... I didn t see that problem. :-) Brad
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2006
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        > > Is it safe to load my datasets on 5.10.1?
        >
        > See above, it won't work without some hacking on your part.
        > Unless I mis-remember, you won't even be able to get a CMP
        > gamemode to load because the gamemode structure was changed.

        Hmmm. What an amazing thing... I didn't see that problem. :-)

        Brad
      • Tir Gwaith
        Thank you for answering, Chris. I found some of those comments laughable. I hope we got all the changes in to make things smoother for ya ll. -- Tir Gwaith
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2006
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          Thank you for answering, Chris. I found some of those comments
          laughable. I hope we got all the changes in to make things smoother
          for ya'll.

          --
          Tir Gwaith
          PCGen LST Chimp
        • karianna03
          Hi All, I m going to clear up some FUD around this item. Right here goes! ... ** 5.10.1 was intended as a bug fix release for 5.10.0, this is due to our new
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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            Hi All,

            I'm going to clear up some FUD around this item. Right here goes!

            What Happened:
            --------------

            ** 5.10.1 was intended as a bug fix release for 5.10.0, this is due to
            our new policy of trying to produce higher quality software!

            * One of the goals was to try and fix _Code_ issues that would stop
            CMP datasets from working, e.g. We wanted to gain minimal
            compatibility. We discussed this with CMP and they did some initial
            tests and let us know of the results, we fixed several issues and we
            think that 5.10.1 is _Code_ compatible with current CMP datasets. If
            we find later on that it isn't we'll work with CMP to release a 5.10.2
            patch and make sure that we are compatible.

            Where to from here:
            -------------------

            CMP _do_ intend on supporting the 5.10.1 series, however they have a
            not insignificant amount of work to do to first 'alter' and then
            'upgrade' their datasets (I know that our data team has put in a
            tremendous amount of effort to upgrade our datasets to 5.10.1). I
            think we can safely assume that this work will not be carried out
            until _after_ Gencon.

            It is only fair to note at this stage that CMP were _not_ aware of
            every change we'd made from 5.8.1 to 5.10.1 as we had no roadmap in
            place for most of the changes (we now have that Roadmap process in
            place so this doesn't happen again). I'm 100% sure that CMP will make
            their exact 5.10.1 plans known (I'd head over to the CMP forums
            _after_ Gencon to find out exactly what those will be), but I suspect
            two steps will occur:

            1.) CMP will make the minimal alterations so that their existing data
            sets will work under 5.10.1. This means that you'd be able to load
            the 5.8.1 datasets into 5.10.1 and they'll work, which means you'll be
            able to gain the benefits of _some_ of PCGen's enhancements. As one
            poster has already stated, the core books seem to already load and are
            useable (I _stress_ this is not officially supported by CMP yet). I
            hope that this step will prove to be not too painful for CMP, but this
            involves complicated software and complicated data, certainly nothing
            is guaranteed to be easy.

            2.) CMP will make significant changes to their datasets to utilise
            some of PCGen's new features, this may or may not include such things
            as the new Monster Kits feature (which has a lot of data work going on
            behind the scenes).

            We'll continue to work with CMP so that their great datasets are
            available on the latest version of our wonderful tool :-)

            Karianna
            Chair Monkey

            > Thank you for answering, Chris. I found some of those comments
            > laughable. I hope we got all the changes in to make things smoother
            > for ya'll.
            >
            > --
            > Tir Gwaith
            > PCGen LST Chimp
          • Tir Gwaith
            ... I d like to stress that the new Monster / Kit system is much better, but will require a lot of data work to implement. I expect when they convert they
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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              > 2.) CMP will make significant changes to their datasets to utilise
              > some of PCGen's new features, this may or may not include such things
              > as the new Monster Kits feature (which has a lot of data work going on
              > behind the scenes).

              I'd like to stress that the new Monster / Kit system is much better,
              but will require a lot of data work to implement. I expect when they
              convert they will do so one source book at a time, over multiple
              'Friday Updates' I think they call them. The old Default Monster
              system will still work in 5.10 (deprecation will happen in the 5.11
              series), but the Kits enhancements are a very good improvement.

              --
              Tir Gwaith
              PCGen LST Chimp
            • Ernst Brun
              Hi lads. After using the program for a few days (5.81 + CMP bundles addition), when i want to load a character sheet the program shows it is loading the file
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                Hi lads.

                After using the program for a few days (5.81 + CMP bundles addition), when i want to load a character sheet the program shows it is loading the file at the bottom left, then stops showing it and nothing happens. I am unable to load my character files.
                I installed the program on another PC and got the same problem after a few days.
                In case it was a memory problem I changed the xms settings but no change. I have 512 Megs.

                If someone has had that kind of pb or has an idea, i would welcome a solution.

                Thanks,
                Ernst.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brass Tilde
                ... Ah hah. So I was reading a bit more into it than was actually there. Mea culpa. ... One of the things I have on my wish list for when have enough time, or
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  > * One of the goals was to try and fix _Code_ issues that would stop

                  > think that 5.10.1 is _Code_ compatible with current CMP datasets. If
                  > we find later on that it isn't we'll work with CMP to release a 5.10.2
                  > patch and make sure that we are compatible.

                  Ah hah. So I was reading a bit more into it than was actually there.
                  Mea culpa.

                  > 1.) CMP will make the minimal alterations so that their existing data
                  > sets will work under 5.10.1. This means that you'd be able to load
                  > the 5.8.1 datasets into 5.10.1 and they'll work, which means you'll be
                  > able to gain the benefits of _some_ of PCGen's enhancements. As one

                  One of the things I have on my wish list for when have enough time, or
                  when I become God-Emperor of the Unniverse, whichever comes first, is
                  that *every* time a tag syntax changes, write a script/program/scroll to
                  make that change to existing PCGen supported data sets at the same time,
                  and make conversion of the tags part of the implementation of the
                  change. If the conversion doesn't work, then the feature isn't
                  complete.

                  That set of scripts/programs/scrolls would then be part of the
                  distribution, and could be used by one and all to upgrade their data
                  sets.

                  Dream on Brad, 'cause you ain't gonna have time.

                  > As one poster has already stated, the core books seem to already load
                  > and are useable

                  So, was this Blind Dumb Luck, or Visionary Intelligent Design?

                  Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't start that debate here, eh? :)

                  Brad
                • karianna03
                  Hi all, ... Unfortunately yes, sorry that was probably just a clarity issue on my part :-(, sometimes I only check my posts once before sendign, I should make
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    Hi all,

                    > Ah hah. So I was reading a bit more into it than was actually
                    > there. Mea culpa.

                    Unfortunately yes, sorry that was probably just a clarity issue on my
                    part :-(, sometimes I only check my posts once before sendign, I
                    should make that twiece in future.

                    > One of the things I have on my wish list for when have enough time,
                    > or when I become God-Emperor of the Unniverse, whichever comes
                    > first, is that *every* time a tag syntax changes, write a
                    > script/program/scroll to make that change to existing PCGen
                    > supported data sets at the same time, and make conversion of the
                    > tags part of the implementation of the change. If the conversion
                    > doesn't work, then the feature isn't complete.

                    Believe or not, but that is one of the FREQs we'll be looking at for
                    the 5.12 series, basically a new version of the LST
                    Convertor/Prettylst that will deal with these sorts of changes

                    > That set of scripts/programs/scrolls would then be part of the
                    > distribution, and could be used by one and all to upgrade their data
                    > sets.

                    Exactly, OS changes and PCG changes as well

                    >> As one poster has already stated, the core books seem to already
                    >> load and are useable
                    >
                    > So, was this Blind Dumb Luck, or Visionary Intelligent Design?

                    Both really, when CMP and ourselves were fixing compatibility code
                    bugs, we had to get things to a state where the CMP datasets would
                    load and work to some degree (in order to find the main bugs). I
                    suspect that if you have a little bit of LST knowledge that a lot of
                    the datasets will work (with a bit of tweaking).

                    CMP will want to understandably do a good deal more data work to make
                    sure everything is working perfectly or near to it, they do have
                    paying customers after all!

                    K
                  • merton_monk
                    ... The LST Converter was kept up-to-date for a while, but it s really in need of a revamp. I think that adding something like it to convert LST syntax from
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "karianna03" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > > Ah hah. So I was reading a bit more into it than was actually
                      > > there. Mea culpa.
                      >
                      > Unfortunately yes, sorry that was probably just a clarity issue on my
                      > part :-(, sometimes I only check my posts once before sendign, I
                      > should make that twiece in future.
                      >
                      > > One of the things I have on my wish list for when have enough time,
                      > > or when I become God-Emperor of the Unniverse, whichever comes
                      > > first, is that *every* time a tag syntax changes, write a
                      > > script/program/scroll to make that change to existing PCGen
                      > > supported data sets at the same time, and make conversion of the
                      > > tags part of the implementation of the change. If the conversion
                      > > doesn't work, then the feature isn't complete.
                      >
                      > Believe or not, but that is one of the FREQs we'll be looking at for
                      > the 5.12 series, basically a new version of the LST
                      > Convertor/Prettylst that will deal with these sorts of changes

                      The LST Converter was kept up-to-date for a while, but it's really in
                      need of a revamp. I think that adding something like it to convert
                      LST syntax from old to new is especially important for people who have
                      their own campaign data. For the first couple of years of PCGen, I
                      think some of my own campaign data was in every release. :)
                      Unfortunately, that party met its doom. At least I have nice campaign
                      files to make creating new parties/enemies that much easier! :D

                      >
                      > > That set of scripts/programs/scrolls would then be part of the
                      > > distribution, and could be used by one and all to upgrade their data
                      > > sets.
                      >
                      > Exactly, OS changes and PCG changes as well

                      The PCG changes should be handled automatically - the pcg loader and
                      detect what version the pcg file was saved in, and make the changes
                      accordingly.

                      >
                      > >> As one poster has already stated, the core books seem to already
                      > >> load and are useable
                      > >
                      > > So, was this Blind Dumb Luck, or Visionary Intelligent Design?
                      >
                      > Both really, when CMP and ourselves were fixing compatibility code
                      > bugs, we had to get things to a state where the CMP datasets would
                      > load and work to some degree (in order to find the main bugs). I
                      > suspect that if you have a little bit of LST knowledge that a lot of
                      > the datasets will work (with a bit of tweaking).
                      >
                      > CMP will want to understandably do a good deal more data work to make
                      > sure everything is working perfectly or near to it, they do have
                      > paying customers after all!

                      I think one advantage of having two different groups working on data
                      sets is that they both use the data differently. This means that
                      they'll find different bugs, and it increases the chance that they'll
                      find a bug that is biting someone working on their own material.
                      Having paying customers does put more urgency into getting things
                      right! Although I think everyone on the volunteer side has always
                      taken pride in fixing things in a very timely manner. :)

                      -Bryan
                      Benevolent Dictator of PCGen
                      Who has been very very swamped, and is really really looking forward
                      to GenCon! Stop by and say hi to me at the CMP booth!

                      >
                      > K
                      >
                    • Tir Gwaith
                      ... Heh. I remember those. I remember the agonizing the decision to remove them, and how to approach the B.D. or removing them. Thank goodness Mynex
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                        > The LST Converter was kept up-to-date for a while, but it's really in
                        > need of a revamp. I think that adding something like it to convert
                        > LST syntax from old to new is especially important for people who have
                        > their own campaign data. For the first couple of years of PCGen, I
                        > think some of my own campaign data was in every release. :)
                        > Unfortunately, that party met its doom. At least I have nice campaign
                        > files to make creating new parties/enemies that much easier! :D

                        Heh. I remember those. I remember the agonizing the decision to
                        remove them, and how to approach the B.D. or removing them. Thank
                        goodness Mynex volunteered. :p

                        <snip>
                        > I think one advantage of having two different groups working on data
                        > sets is that they both use the data differently. This means that
                        > they'll find different bugs, and it increases the chance that they'll
                        > find a bug that is biting someone working on their own material.
                        > Having paying customers does put more urgency into getting things
                        > right! Although I think everyone on the volunteer side has always
                        > taken pride in fixing things in a very timely manner. :)

                        Also, different ideas for developing new spec's. Mynex et al had some
                        really nice points on the Natural Attack concept. Almost like the
                        Skunkwork's two design teams for every major system back in the 50's.

                        And yeah, we like to nail bugs fast. I can't wait to get back to my
                        place so I can tackle a bug fix and finish getting another source into
                        SVN.

                        --
                        Tir Gwaith
                        PCGen LST Chimp
                        Who gets to play "Meet the Parents" instead of going to GenCon this
                        year like I planned....
                      • Terry FitzSimons
                        ... It was The Watcher, from The Moon room, with the Pink Eraser of Errors Terry
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                          On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:35:06 -0400, you wrote:
                          >
                          >> As one poster has already stated, the core books seem to already load
                          >> and are useable
                          >
                          >So, was this Blind Dumb Luck, or Visionary Intelligent Design?
                          >
                          >Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't start that debate here, eh? :)
                          >
                          >Brad

                          It was The Watcher, from The Moon room, with the Pink Eraser of Errors

                          Terry
                        • Eric C. Smith
                          ... Thank you, Barak, and everyone else who provided clarification on the CMP Data Set issue. You are right. I did misunderstand the earlier posts. My bad.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 6, 2006
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                            Barak wrote:
                            > Err... No. I think you mis-interpreted what Kar meant.
                            >
                            Thank you, Barak, and everyone else who provided clarification on the
                            CMP Data Set issue.

                            You are right. I did misunderstand the earlier posts. My bad. :-)

                            I have managed to load the datasets and get them running with little
                            difficulty, but there were a few significant issues that presented
                            themselves, so I have gone back to the RSRD as distributed with
                            PCGen. The folks over at CMP did finally post a few notes on their
                            frum about the issue, and as several folks stated here, it will be
                            after GenCon before thay even gat a chance to look at the dataset
                            conversion question. Ohwell. I can wait:-)

                            In the mean time, and understanding that I am not capable at this
                            time of doing any coding in Java, is there anything I can do to
                            assist with the continuing effort on PCGen?

                            Maredudd
                          • Paul W. King
                            We could always use more data monkeys. :) Paul W. King PR SB, BoD ... From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Eric C. Smith
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 6, 2006
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                              We could always use more data monkeys. :)

                              Paul W. King
                              PR SB, BoD

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                              Eric C. Smith
                              Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 6:57 AM
                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] PCGen 5.10.1 and the CMP Datasets . . .

                              In the mean time, and understanding that I am not capable at this time of doing any coding in Java, is there anything I can do to
                              assist with the continuing effort on PCGen?
                            • Tir Gwaith
                              ... And Doc monkeys. I d love a Data monkey that was as prolific as Paul K., but not as hard to troubleshoot cause they make up their own syntax. I ve been
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 6, 2006
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                                On 8/6/06, Paul W. King <paulking.rhochi@...> wrote:
                                > We could always use more data monkeys. :)

                                And Doc monkeys. I'd love a Data monkey that was as prolific as Paul
                                K., but not as hard to troubleshoot cause they make up their own
                                syntax. I've been on the Arcane Archer for like the last week, and I
                                want it off my plate. Only spent like 6 hours on it, since my life
                                has been hectic, but still...

                                Yeah, I couldn't help but jab, Paul. :P

                                --
                                Tir Gwaith
                                PCGen LST Chimp
                              • maredudd800
                                ... Thanks for the replies about what you folks could use some help on, but as I reviewed where I was, and more importantly what kind of BUGS and FREQs you
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 18, 2006
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                                  I wrote:
                                  > In the mean time, and understanding that I am not capable at this
                                  > time of doing any coding in Java, is there anything I can do to
                                  > assist with the continuing effort on PCGen?
                                  >


                                  Thanks for the replies about what you folks could use some help on, but as I reviewed where
                                  I was, and more importantly what kind of BUGS and FREQs you guys are dealing with, I
                                  realized that I am still way to new to PCGen to be of any real help. I ned to chew-off a few
                                  more nails and pull a lot more hair out before I know enough to be helpful.

                                  I'm not going away though, and when I'm more comfortable with what I CAN do in PCGEN. or
                                  at lest when what I know aligns more closely with the way things work, I'll jump right in . . .

                                  Maredudd
                                • karianna03
                                  Hi there, ... See my next post on volunteering! K
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 18, 2006
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                                    Hi there,

                                    > Thanks for the replies about what you folks could use some help on,
                                    > but as I reviewed where I was, and more importantly what kind of
                                    > BUGS and FREQs you guys are dealing with, I realized that I am still
                                    > way to new to PCGen to be of any real help. I ned to chew-off a few
                                    > more nails and pull a lot more hair out before I know enough to be
                                    > helpful.
                                    >
                                    > I'm not going away though, and when I'm more comfortable with what I
                                    > CAN do in PCGEN. or at lest when what I know aligns more closely
                                    > with the way things work, I'll jump right in . . .

                                    See my next post on volunteering!

                                    K
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