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Re: [pcgen] [OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

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  • Tod W. Milam
    ... At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the PCs and for creating my own NPCs. Tod
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:

      > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
      > > character
      > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
      > it's
      > > presence.
      >
      > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

      At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
      PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

      Tod


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    • Brass Tilde
      ... Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on Wizards DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play point-buy
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
        >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
        >> I appreciate it's presence.
        >
        > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

        Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
        Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
        point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
        bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
        i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
        in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
        the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
        in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
        CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
        our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
        and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
        20 or 25.

        > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
        > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

        I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
        using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
        suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
        too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
        figure out why.

        /bs
      • Brian
        a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign. ... From: Brass Tilde
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system
          for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign.

          -------Original Message-------

          From: Brass Tilde
          Date: 06/01/06 14:01:00
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] [OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

          >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
          >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
          >> I appreciate it's presence.
          >
          > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

          Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
          Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
          point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
          bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
          i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
          in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
          the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
          in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
          CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
          our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
          and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
          20 or 25.

          > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
          > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

          I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
          using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
          suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
          too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
          figure out why.

          /bs



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Richard Bowers
          ... So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being used. It
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            On 6/1/06, The Wandering Dru <dru@...> wrote:
            >
            > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
            > Hash: SHA1
            >
            >
            > Derek J. Balling wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
            > >
            >
            > The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always.
            > When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick reference
            > for the DM.
            >
            > I don't think it's useless, but it is borked when point buy isn't used.
            >

            So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
            statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
            used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that returns
            something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be able to
            be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
            change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
            points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
            something else in place of points.

            That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering what the
            Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front of the
            sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
            important.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Truth
            ... I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other role-players I m currently in contact with (at least 4 different groups of 4 to 8
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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              On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
              > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
              > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
              > > > character
              > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
              > > it's
              > > > presence.
              > >
              > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
              >
              > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
              > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

              I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other
              role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
              groups of 4 to 8 people each).

              --
              Truth.
              There is no religion higher than the Truth.
            • Chuck Pint
              ... returns ... able to ... what the ... of the ... That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS tokens, many things like this will be
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
                > So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
                > statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
                > used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that
                returns
                > something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be
                able to
                > be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
                > change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
                > points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
                > something else in place of points.
                >
                > That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering
                what the
                > Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front
                of the
                > sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
                > important.

                That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS
                tokens, many things like this will be possible...

                Chuck
                OS Chimp
              • Darkon
                ... appreciate ... the ... other ... Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Truth <geeknz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
                  > > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
                  > > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                  > > > > character
                  > > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I
                  appreciate
                  > > > it's
                  > > > > presence.
                  > > >
                  > > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                  > >
                  > > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                  the
                  > > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                  >
                  > I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                  other
                  > role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
                  > groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                  Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                  even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                  years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                  variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                  simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                  AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                  (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).
                • Brass Tilde
                  ... I ll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority, or even a significant minority, either. However, the point was that enough people,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                    >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                    >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                    >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                    > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                    > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                    > years or PRing nover used the point buy system.

                    I'll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority,
                    or even a significant minority, either.

                    However, the point was that enough people, whether a majority or not,
                    find it useful that deleting such functionality, rather than fixing it,
                    would appear to be unwarranted.

                    > We all prefer the variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating
                    > a character, or simply having the convienience of simply converting an
                    > older edition AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength
                    > and all

                    Then by all means, do so, but don't deprive those of us who choose to do
                    it differently of *our* convenience.

                    If you want to suggest that the point display be suppressed for
                    non-point-buy characters, that's great, but don't call for its complete
                    removal.

                    /bs
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    We really don t need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate everyone. I m seeing several trackers here: Code - GUI: Disable the display of points
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                      We really don't need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate
                      everyone. I'm seeing several trackers here:

                      Code - GUI: Disable the display of points used when no point buy system was
                      used to create the character.

                      Code - OS Token: We need some method to determine if a point-buy method is
                      used to control the output of that info. Suggestion:

                      IIF(HASPOINTBUY:YES)

                      OS: Once we have a token in place adjust the sheets accordingly.


                      Not related but mentioned in this thread is the display of race type and
                      subtypes. Thanks to Aaron this feature is now supported and all the races in
                      the RSRD and MSRD have been updated with this info, we now just need to
                      update to display this info where appropriate.

                      Code - GUI: Display Creature type and subtypes in the race info pane on the
                      race tab and the race pane of the summary tab (if this is not already
                      there).

                      OS: Update the OS's to display race type and subtypes.


                      Comments please, if no objections surface I'll enter these later this
                      evening.
                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
                    • Terry FitzSimons
                      So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems. Terry ... -- Terry FitzSimons FITZSIMONS@MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only) Data Lemur, Docs
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems.

                        Terry

                        On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:22:03 -0400, you wrote:

                        >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                        >> character
                        >> using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
                        >> presence.
                        >
                        >How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                        >
                        >And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
                        >there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)
                        >
                        >Cheers,
                        >D
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        >PCGen's Wiki: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/pytw/#Welcome
                        >PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
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                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
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                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        --

                        Terry FitzSimons
                        FITZSIMONS@...(Small Letters Only)

                        Data Lemur, Docs Lemur
                      • Kevin Brown
                        ... Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many points they
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 5, 2006
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                          >>>>> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                          >>>>> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
                          >>>>> I appreciate it's presence.
                          >>>> How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                          >>> At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                          >>> the PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                          >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                          >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                          >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).
                          >
                          > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                          > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                          > years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                          > variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                          > simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                          > AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                          > (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).

                          Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                          how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                          points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll. Etools
                          that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                        • taluroniscandar
                          ... Etools ... We don t use point buy and all I ever see there is -1 or 0 . It doesn t show me how many points I ve tweaked that I ve ever seen. [search]
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 6, 2006
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                            > Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                            > how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                            > points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll.
                            Etools
                            > that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                            >

                            We don't use point buy and all I ever see there is "-1" or "0".
                            It doesn't show me how many points I've tweaked that I've ever seen.
                            [search] Nope just looked at several pdf's and they all show -1 or 0,
                            mostly 0.
                            Are you saying to add this as a feature?
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