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Re: [pcgen] [OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

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  • Derek J. Balling
    ... How many people actually use point-buy systems, though? And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in there is clearly borked (0,
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
      > character
      > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
      > presence.

      How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

      And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
      there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

      Cheers,
      D




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • The Wandering Dru
      ... Hash: SHA1 ... The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always. When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        Derek J. Balling wrote:

        >
        > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
        >

        The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always.
        When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick reference
        for the DM.

        I don't think it's useless, but it is borked when point buy isn't used.

        - --
        The Wandering Dru GnuPG Key: 0x506A915F
        http://www.druswanderings.net

        Get nifty TCLUG merchandise at the TCLUG Store!
        http://www.cafeshops.com/tclug
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      • Tod W. Milam
        ... At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the PCs and for creating my own NPCs. Tod
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:

          > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
          > > character
          > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
          > it's
          > > presence.
          >
          > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

          At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
          PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

          Tod


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        • Brass Tilde
          ... Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on Wizards DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play point-buy
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
            >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
            >> I appreciate it's presence.
            >
            > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

            Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
            Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
            point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
            bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
            i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
            in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
            the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
            in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
            CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
            our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
            and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
            20 or 25.

            > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
            > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

            I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
            using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
            suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
            too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
            figure out why.

            /bs
          • Brian
            a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign. ... From: Brass Tilde
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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              a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system
              for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign.

              -------Original Message-------

              From: Brass Tilde
              Date: 06/01/06 14:01:00
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] [OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

              >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
              >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
              >> I appreciate it's presence.
              >
              > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

              Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
              Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
              point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
              bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
              i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
              in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
              the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
              in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
              CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
              our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
              and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
              20 or 25.

              > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
              > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

              I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
              using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
              suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
              too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
              figure out why.

              /bs



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Richard Bowers
              ... So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being used. It
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                On 6/1/06, The Wandering Dru <dru@...> wrote:
                >
                > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                > Hash: SHA1
                >
                >
                > Derek J. Balling wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                > >
                >
                > The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always.
                > When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick reference
                > for the DM.
                >
                > I don't think it's useless, but it is borked when point buy isn't used.
                >

                So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
                statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
                used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that returns
                something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be able to
                be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
                change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
                points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
                something else in place of points.

                That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering what the
                Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front of the
                sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
                important.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Truth
                ... I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other role-players I m currently in contact with (at least 4 different groups of 4 to 8
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
                  > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
                  > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                  > > > character
                  > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
                  > > it's
                  > > > presence.
                  > >
                  > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                  >
                  > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
                  > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

                  I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other
                  role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
                  groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                  --
                  Truth.
                  There is no religion higher than the Truth.
                • Chuck Pint
                  ... returns ... able to ... what the ... of the ... That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS tokens, many things like this will be
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
                    > So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
                    > statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
                    > used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that
                    returns
                    > something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be
                    able to
                    > be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
                    > change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
                    > points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
                    > something else in place of points.
                    >
                    > That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering
                    what the
                    > Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front
                    of the
                    > sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
                    > important.

                    That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS
                    tokens, many things like this will be possible...

                    Chuck
                    OS Chimp
                  • Darkon
                    ... appreciate ... the ... other ... Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Truth <geeknz@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
                      > > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
                      > > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                      > > > > character
                      > > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I
                      appreciate
                      > > > it's
                      > > > > presence.
                      > > >
                      > > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                      > >
                      > > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                      the
                      > > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                      >
                      > I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                      other
                      > role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
                      > groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                      Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                      even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                      years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                      variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                      simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                      AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                      (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).
                    • Brass Tilde
                      ... I ll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority, or even a significant minority, either. However, the point was that enough people,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                        >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                        >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                        > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                        > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                        > years or PRing nover used the point buy system.

                        I'll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority,
                        or even a significant minority, either.

                        However, the point was that enough people, whether a majority or not,
                        find it useful that deleting such functionality, rather than fixing it,
                        would appear to be unwarranted.

                        > We all prefer the variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating
                        > a character, or simply having the convienience of simply converting an
                        > older edition AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength
                        > and all

                        Then by all means, do so, but don't deprive those of us who choose to do
                        it differently of *our* convenience.

                        If you want to suggest that the point display be suppressed for
                        non-point-buy characters, that's great, but don't call for its complete
                        removal.

                        /bs
                      • Eddy Anthony
                        We really don t need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate everyone. I m seeing several trackers here: Code - GUI: Disable the display of points
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                          We really don't need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate
                          everyone. I'm seeing several trackers here:

                          Code - GUI: Disable the display of points used when no point buy system was
                          used to create the character.

                          Code - OS Token: We need some method to determine if a point-buy method is
                          used to control the output of that info. Suggestion:

                          IIF(HASPOINTBUY:YES)

                          OS: Once we have a token in place adjust the sheets accordingly.


                          Not related but mentioned in this thread is the display of race type and
                          subtypes. Thanks to Aaron this feature is now supported and all the races in
                          the RSRD and MSRD have been updated with this info, we now just need to
                          update to display this info where appropriate.

                          Code - GUI: Display Creature type and subtypes in the race info pane on the
                          race tab and the race pane of the summary tab (if this is not already
                          there).

                          OS: Update the OS's to display race type and subtypes.


                          Comments please, if no objections surface I'll enter these later this
                          evening.
                          --
                          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                          ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
                        • Terry FitzSimons
                          So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems. Terry ... -- Terry FitzSimons FITZSIMONS@MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only) Data Lemur, Docs
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                            So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems.

                            Terry

                            On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:22:03 -0400, you wrote:

                            >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                            >> character
                            >> using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
                            >> presence.
                            >
                            >How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                            >
                            >And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
                            >there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)
                            >
                            >Cheers,
                            >D
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                            >PCGen's Wiki: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/pytw/#Welcome
                            >PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                            >PCGen's Online Docs: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/docs/
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            --

                            Terry FitzSimons
                            FITZSIMONS@...(Small Letters Only)

                            Data Lemur, Docs Lemur
                          • Kevin Brown
                            ... Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many points they
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 5, 2006
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                              >>>>> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                              >>>>> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
                              >>>>> I appreciate it's presence.
                              >>>> How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                              >>> At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                              >>> the PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                              >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                              >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                              >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).
                              >
                              > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                              > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                              > years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                              > variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                              > simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                              > AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                              > (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).

                              Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                              how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                              points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll. Etools
                              that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                            • taluroniscandar
                              ... Etools ... We don t use point buy and all I ever see there is -1 or 0 . It doesn t show me how many points I ve tweaked that I ve ever seen. [search]
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 6, 2006
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                                > Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                                > how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                                > points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll.
                                Etools
                                > that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                                >

                                We don't use point buy and all I ever see there is "-1" or "0".
                                It doesn't show me how many points I've tweaked that I've ever seen.
                                [search] Nope just looked at several pdf's and they all show -1 or 0,
                                mostly 0.
                                Are you saying to add this as a feature?
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