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[OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

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  • Darkon
    Over the years I ve noticed that there is this useless Points line that seems to have no bearing on anything (and frequently comes up with a negative number).
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Over the years I've noticed that there is this useless Points line
      that seems to have no bearing on anything (and frequently comes up
      with a negative number). I would like to suggest eliminating it and
      replacing it with something a bit more useful like the character's
      type (Humanoid, Fey, Native Outsider, Fire Elemental, etc.) or Region
      (even though it is on the last page wich frequently doesn't get
      printed) or maybe just make more room for the class line by migrating
      a field down there.

      My personal preference is for character type even though I realize
      that that aspect of the program is still a real mess since PCGen can't
      tell types apart from subtypes or even other templates (mainly because
      that is the dumping ground for everything that threw a coder for a
      loop).
    • boomer70
      ... For versions after 5.8 we have had two new fields in races, RACETYPE, and RACESUBTYPE. So we can tell what race and subtypes a character has. In fact I
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        --- Darkon <darkon_turas@...> wrote:

        > Over the years I've noticed that there is this
        > useless Points line
        > that seems to have no bearing on anything (and
        > frequently comes up
        > with a negative number). I would like to suggest
        > eliminating it and
        > replacing it with something a bit more useful like
        > the character's
        > type (Humanoid, Fey, Native Outsider, Fire
        > Elemental, etc.) or Region
        > (even though it is on the last page wich frequently
        > doesn't get
        > printed) or maybe just make more room for the class
        > line by migrating
        > a field down there.
        >
        > My personal preference is for character type even
        > though I realize
        > that that aspect of the program is still a real mess
        > since PCGen can't
        > tell types apart from subtypes or even other
        > templates (mainly because
        > that is the dumping ground for everything that threw
        > a coder for a
        > loop).
        >
        For versions after 5.8 we have had two new fields in
        races, RACETYPE, and RACESUBTYPE. So we can tell what
        race and subtypes a character has. In fact I believe
        the csheet_fantasy_statblock_SRD.htm output sheet
        includes this information.

        -Aaron

        ----------------
        Aaron Divinsky
        PCGen Docs 2nd, Data Chimp, Code Gibbon, Doc Tamarin

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      • Brass Tilde
        ... It s not useless. It s the number of points used to create a character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it s presence.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          > Over the years I've noticed that there is this useless Points line
          > that seems to have no bearing on anything (and frequently comes up
          > with a negative number).

          It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a character
          using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
          presence.
        • Derek J. Balling
          ... How many people actually use point-buy systems, though? And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in there is clearly borked (0,
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
            > character
            > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
            > presence.

            How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

            And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
            there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

            Cheers,
            D




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • The Wandering Dru
            ... Hash: SHA1 ... The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always. When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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              Derek J. Balling wrote:

              >
              > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
              >

              The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always.
              When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick reference
              for the DM.

              I don't think it's useless, but it is borked when point buy isn't used.

              - --
              The Wandering Dru GnuPG Key: 0x506A915F
              http://www.druswanderings.net

              Get nifty TCLUG merchandise at the TCLUG Store!
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            • Tod W. Milam
              ... At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the PCs and for creating my own NPCs. Tod
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:

                > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                > > character
                > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
                > it's
                > > presence.
                >
                > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

                At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
                PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

                Tod


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              • Brass Tilde
                ... Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on Wizards DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play point-buy
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                  >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
                  >> I appreciate it's presence.
                  >
                  > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

                  Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
                  Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
                  point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
                  bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
                  i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
                  in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
                  the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
                  in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
                  CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
                  our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
                  and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
                  20 or 25.

                  > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
                  > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

                  I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
                  using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
                  suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
                  too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
                  figure out why.

                  /bs
                • Brian
                  a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign. ... From: Brass Tilde
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    a lot of our future campaigns in 3.5e are going to use a point buy system
                    for ablilty scores. we used it during the present campaign.

                    -------Original Message-------

                    From: Brass Tilde
                    Date: 06/01/06 14:01:00
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] [OS FREQ] Replace "Points" line with Species Type

                    >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                    >> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
                    >> I appreciate it's presence.
                    >
                    > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?

                    Enough that someone thought to put it there. And if the posts on
                    Wizards' DnD mailing list are any indication, quite a few. We only play
                    point-buy characters any more, as it levels the playing field a fair
                    bit. Random roles, even under the most stringent of re-rolling rules,
                    i.e. none, often resulted in characters that either contributed nothing,
                    in the case of severely bad rolls, or monopolizing every encounter, with
                    the exceptionally good ones. Relaxing the re-roll rules just resulted
                    in *more* overpowered characters, requiring too much hand adjustment of
                    CRs and treasure and such. Wasn't worth it to us. Bear in mind that in
                    our group, my son and I are the most inexperienced players at about 10
                    and 3 years respectively. The others have been playing for upwards of
                    20 or 25.

                    > And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
                    > there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)

                    I'll freely admit that outputting 0 when a character *isn't* generated
                    using point-buy, or having an incorrect number, is sub-obtimal, but I'd
                    suggest fixing it, rather than removing it. I use it often, though I
                    too have seen it "borked" on occasion; I just haven't taken the time to
                    figure out why.

                    /bs



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                  • Richard Bowers
                    ... So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being used. It
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                      On 6/1/06, The Wandering Dru <dru@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                      > Hash: SHA1
                      >
                      >
                      > Derek J. Balling wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                      > >
                      >
                      > The RPGA uses it exclusively. My group uses it often, but not always.
                      > When using point buy, it is nice to have that there as a quick reference
                      > for the DM.
                      >
                      > I don't think it's useless, but it is borked when point buy isn't used.
                      >

                      So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
                      statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
                      used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that returns
                      something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be able to
                      be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
                      change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
                      points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
                      something else in place of points.

                      That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering what the
                      Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front of the
                      sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
                      important.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Truth
                      ... I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other role-players I m currently in contact with (at least 4 different groups of 4 to 8
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                        On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
                        > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
                        > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                        > > > character
                        > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate
                        > > it's
                        > > > presence.
                        > >
                        > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                        >
                        > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing the
                        > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.

                        I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the other
                        role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
                        groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                        --
                        Truth.
                        There is no religion higher than the Truth.
                      • Chuck Pint
                        ... returns ... able to ... what the ... of the ... That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS tokens, many things like this will be
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Bowers" <richard.bowers@...> wrote:
                          > So how about a FREQ for an output sheet token that can be used in an if
                          > statement, with a return value based on whether or not points are being
                          > used. It would be crucial that this not just be a string token that
                          returns
                          > something that can't be compared using existing logic - it has to be
                          able to
                          > be used in an if or other conditional statement. If we had that, I could
                          > change the output sheet to output the points block only if they're using
                          > points, and otherwise either expand the rest of the columns, or output
                          > something else in place of points.
                          >
                          > That would save the headaches that I have with newbies wondering
                          what the
                          > Points section is and why it's important enough to be on the front
                          of the
                          > sheet, but also prevent us from turning off something that's undeniably
                          > important.

                          That FREQ is already in the system. When JEP functions within the OS
                          tokens, many things like this will be possible...

                          Chuck
                          OS Chimp
                        • Darkon
                          ... appreciate ... the ... other ... Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Truth <geeknz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On 6/2/06, Tod W. Milam <twmilam@...> wrote:
                            > > --- "Derek J. Balling" <dredd@...> wrote:
                            > > > > It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                            > > > > character
                            > > > > using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I
                            appreciate
                            > > > it's
                            > > > > presence.
                            > > >
                            > > > How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                            > >
                            > > At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                            the
                            > > PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                            >
                            > I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                            other
                            > role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4 different
                            > groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                            Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                            even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                            years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                            variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                            simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                            AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                            (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).
                          • Brass Tilde
                            ... I ll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority, or even a significant minority, either. However, the point was that enough people,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                              >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                              >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                              >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).

                              > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                              > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                              > years or PRing nover used the point buy system.

                              I'll point out that you offer no proof that *your* view is the majority,
                              or even a significant minority, either.

                              However, the point was that enough people, whether a majority or not,
                              find it useful that deleting such functionality, rather than fixing it,
                              would appear to be unwarranted.

                              > We all prefer the variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating
                              > a character, or simply having the convienience of simply converting an
                              > older edition AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength
                              > and all

                              Then by all means, do so, but don't deprive those of us who choose to do
                              it differently of *our* convenience.

                              If you want to suggest that the point display be suppressed for
                              non-point-buy characters, that's great, but don't call for its complete
                              removal.

                              /bs
                            • Eddy Anthony
                              We really don t need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate everyone. I m seeing several trackers here: Code - GUI: Disable the display of points
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                We really don't need to argue about this, should be able to accommodate
                                everyone. I'm seeing several trackers here:

                                Code - GUI: Disable the display of points used when no point buy system was
                                used to create the character.

                                Code - OS Token: We need some method to determine if a point-buy method is
                                used to control the output of that info. Suggestion:

                                IIF(HASPOINTBUY:YES)

                                OS: Once we have a token in place adjust the sheets accordingly.


                                Not related but mentioned in this thread is the display of race type and
                                subtypes. Thanks to Aaron this feature is now supported and all the races in
                                the RSRD and MSRD have been updated with this info, we now just need to
                                update to display this info where appropriate.

                                Code - GUI: Display Creature type and subtypes in the race info pane on the
                                race tab and the race pane of the summary tab (if this is not already
                                there).

                                OS: Update the OS's to display race type and subtypes.


                                Comments please, if no objections surface I'll enter these later this
                                evening.
                                --
                                ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                                ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
                              • Terry FitzSimons
                                So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems. Terry ... -- Terry FitzSimons FITZSIMONS@MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only) Data Lemur, Docs
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                  So far the three games that I have been in have used point-by systems.

                                  Terry

                                  On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:22:03 -0400, you wrote:

                                  >> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                                  >> character
                                  >> using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and I appreciate it's
                                  >> presence.
                                  >
                                  >How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                                  >
                                  >And half the time, I agree with the OP, that the number which is in
                                  >there is clearly borked (0, negative, etc.)
                                  >
                                  >Cheers,
                                  >D
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                                  >PCGen's Wiki: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/pytw/#Welcome
                                  >PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
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                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  Terry FitzSimons
                                  FITZSIMONS@...(Small Letters Only)

                                  Data Lemur, Docs Lemur
                                • Kevin Brown
                                  ... Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many points they
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 5, 2006
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                                    >>>>> It's not useless. It's the number of points used to create a
                                    >>>>> character using a Point-Buy system. Quite useful to me, and
                                    >>>>> I appreciate it's presence.
                                    >>>> How many people actually use point-buy systems, though?
                                    >>> At least 2 of us. I certainly find it useful, both for policing
                                    >>> the PCs and for creating my own NPCs.
                                    >> I think quite a few of us use this. I know I do, as do all the
                                    >> other role-players I'm currently in contact with (at least 4
                                    >> different groups of 4 to 8 people each).
                                    >
                                    > Just understand that you do not represent 100% of the populatio or
                                    > even the majority. Every group I ever interacted with in over 23
                                    > years or PRing nover used the point buy system. We all prefer the
                                    > variety of seeing how our luck fairs when generating a character, or
                                    > simply having the convienience of simply converting an older edition
                                    > AD&D character straight into the game - 18(95) strength and all
                                    > (which btw converts to a 22 in 3rd edition).

                                    Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                                    how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                                    points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll. Etools
                                    that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                                  • taluroniscandar
                                    ... Etools ... We don t use point buy and all I ever see there is -1 or 0 . It doesn t show me how many points I ve tweaked that I ve ever seen. [search]
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 6, 2006
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                                      > Even for non-point buy players it can serve a purpose. Such as seeing
                                      > how many times one has rolled to get the current character or how many
                                      > points they have tweaked around on the character after the roll.
                                      Etools
                                      > that came with the 3rd Ed Player's Handbook did this.
                                      >

                                      We don't use point buy and all I ever see there is "-1" or "0".
                                      It doesn't show me how many points I've tweaked that I've ever seen.
                                      [search] Nope just looked at several pdf's and they all show -1 or 0,
                                      mostly 0.
                                      Are you saying to add this as a feature?
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