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Re: NOT HAPPY !!! (Was: Re: [pcgen][bug] Willpower vs. Will - NOT working)

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  • Eddy Anthony
    On 5/4/06 4:40 AM, pkukwork ... Because it is incorrect, the check name is Will not Willpower . Your next
    Message 1 of 44 , May 4, 2006
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      On 5/4/06 4:40 AM, "pkukwork" <philippe.krait@...>
      wrote:

      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>> Come on, who makes that kind of decision ? What's the point ? How can
      >>> you change something like that preventing backwards compatibility for
      >>> so many data sets, including commercial ones ?
      >>
      >> Hi pkukwork
      >> As Content Silverback for the 5.10 series I made that decision
      > and I'd
      >> be happy to explain it. First some points:
      >
      > Thanks for your reply, see below for my comments on it... :)
      >
      >> First off the function of defining the check names is done in the
      >> gameMode
      >> and is thus a function of data not code. This means that CMP is free
      >> to use
      >> "Willpower", "Will", "Guts" or whatever they want to use, the Open
      >> Sources
      >> decision by the data team to change this to the correct term has no
      >> effect
      >> on CMP datasets what-so-ever. The OS data and CMP's data is not
      >> currently
      >> compatible so this is not a compatibility issue either.
      >
      > OK, understood. But then why decide to change it in the Game Mode ?

      Because it is incorrect, the check name is "Will" not "Willpower". Your next
      question will be "So what, it's an internal name, why change it?". Good
      point but like so many things in PCGen it has multiple uses, some (but not
      all) of the outputsheets use the check name property instead of hard coding
      "Will" right on the sheet and in those cases the word "Willpower" would be
      displayed.

      >> Second, this does not effect characters made before the change
      >> because the
      >> check name is not referenced in the character file, it is set in the
      >> gameMode and adjusted by the data so a character created before and
      >> loaded
      >> with the new data should see no difference.
      >
      > Because the data set that I use (both CMP and personal) use
      > "Willpower" instead of "WILL", the saves are wrong. Yes, you are
      > right, it does not affect characters that use only the data set
      > provided by PCGen. But see below.
      >
      >> For folks who maintain their own datasets the change will need to be
      >> made to
      >> maintain compatibility. But even if you can't run prettylst (and it
      >> took me
      >> a while to grok it so I understand) it is a relatively simple find and
      >> replace bit of work.
      >
      > How many changes like this are there ? Also, it is not that simple, as
      > there are quite a big number of files affected here and there, and not
      > every Willpower needs to be changed to will.

      99% of the instances need to be converted, there were maybe 5 instances in
      our repository which actually meant to use the word willpower. As for how
      many changes there are like this one, that's it, I don't know if we have
      ever done a conversion quite like this one. There are some class name
      changes and those are mentioned in the release notes.

      >> There are various reasons for changes to the equipment names, the
      >> example
      >> you cite above is done for consistency as it will group all the related
      >> items (Potions) in the same place on the list.
      >
      > The other reasonning was nice as well, it grouped all the oils
      > together. It seems more a question of a whim on the data set provider
      > than anything else. Again, i don't blame him, he is doing this with
      > his free time while I am just a user. However, my point is that, in
      > software development, you should always weight such changes against
      > the annooyance that they will generate...

      We do for the most part, the Willpower to Will conversion was discussed long
      before 5.8 came out (it was first noted in 2004), we decided to wait for the
      5.9 line so it would make it into 5.10.

      >> A simple solution is to stick with one release for the duration of your
      >> campaign. How often do you upgrade? The Alpha releases are meant for
      >> development and you can expect to encounter problems. For my own
      >> campaign I
      >> stick with the latest production release. I stuck with 5.6 through
      >> my last
      >> campaign even when 5.8 came out to avoid the upgrade blues, it made
      >> since
      >> because we knew we were going to wrap it up in a few months and start
      >> something new.
      >
      > Well, my campaign is more than 3 years old (and I don't plan on
      > finishing it any time soon) and PCGen has progressed quite a bit
      > since, then, correcting a big number of things as well as bringing in
      > new possibilities. And I only install major releases, going from 5.8.1
      > to 5.10 does not seem like a very frequent change...

      Yes well a number of you were not happy with my suggestion :p
      It was simply that, a suggestion to wait for a convenient time to switch
      versions.

      Another point I'd like to make is that we just finished the RSRD and MSRD
      when we added the Epic, Divine, Arcana and Future sections. If this were a
      commercial venture it would work differently but it's a volunteer effort and
      what you've been playing with for the last 2 years has essentially been a
      work in progress.

      >> As you can tell from other posts this is not the first time this
      >> complaint
      >> has been made. It is taken seriously and ideas are being discussed
      >> on how
      >> best to deal with it. I myself have pushed for a LST converter which
      >> could
      >> convert homebrew datasets to the current standards, that did not make it
      >> into this release because of the unexpected deadline we were working
      >> under.
      >
      > That would be really nice to have...
      >
      >> In the future I hope we will see some mechanism for a painless
      >> character and
      >> dataset upgrade built into the program but we are not there yet.
      >
      > Alright, thanks for the explanations. I would however like to point
      > out that things are certainly done backwards. It would seem much
      > better NOT to do changes like that — as I don't see the necessity fo
      > them at all, and I still don't after your post — before the tool is ready.
      >
      > I think that when working with a deadline, you should concentrate on
      > the things that are really useful. DOing that kind of change only took
      > time and did (for me) not bring anything but problems in the end...
      >
      > Philippe

      Well I spent more than half my recent time debugging the RSRD monsters to
      bring the Default Monster kits in line with the text. I believe we now have
      the cleanest set of monsters as we have ever had. The Will conversion we
      implemented via a script and the time spent was on set up and testing, it
      really didn't take all that long. Also that conversion was done back in
      January before we were aware of the deadline.

      So I think I think I managed my (freely donated) time quite well :-)
      --
      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
      ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
    • Derek J. Balling
      ... But if you re running the CMP files, you shouldn t ALSO be running the SRD files. You should be using the PHB/DMG/MM sets from CMP as well as whatever
      Message 44 of 44 , May 4, 2006
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        On May 4, 2006, at 4:41 AM, pkukwork wrote:
        > Of course I'm mixing. Who is not ? I don't think many people run a
        > "purely SRD" campaign, and I think that most people use at least the
        > Complete Series from WotC in their campaign. At least this is what I
        > find when I speak to most people I know or on mailing lists...

        But if you're running the CMP files, you shouldn't ALSO be running
        the SRD files. You should be using the PHB/DMG/MM sets from CMP as
        well as whatever "addons" you're using.

        It's that mixing of SRD and non-SRD (and PHB/DMG/MM in this context
        are non-SRD as they're the CMP renditions of those books) that will
        always always be a pain/nightmare/bugfest.

        Cheers,
        D
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