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Natural weapons & ambidex/TWF

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  • kigmatzomat
    Hi there, One of the players IMC has a dragon disciple/rogue and ran into something kinda funny with the natural weapons & ambidex/TWF. I m using some
    Message 1 of 4 , May 1, 2006
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      Hi there,

      One of the players IMC has a dragon disciple/rogue and ran into
      something kinda funny with the natural weapons & ambidex/TWF. I'm
      using some homebrew LSTs but I was able to recreate the issue with SRD
      files.

      In 3.0 mode (PCGen 5.10RC1) load the SRD complete. Make a human
      fighter, all stats 10, and give him a 5 levels (pick any feats you
      want EXCEPT ambidex, TWF & weapon focus). Now make him a half-dragon
      and give him a short sword for comparison.

      Lets check the character sheet
      short sword +9 +5+9 +3+5 +1
      bite +9
      claw +4/+4

      Now add ambidexterity feat
      short sword +9 +9 +9 +3+5 +5
      bite +9
      claw +8/+8

      add TWF feat to the mix
      short sword +9 +9+9 +5+7 +7
      bite +9
      claw +10/+10

      The issue is that a normal "off-hand" is at -8 while secondary natural
      weapons are listed more as an iterative attack (-5). When you give
      the +2/+2 of TWF and the +4 of Ambidex, the claws actually become
      higher than the normal attack. (BAB -5 +6)

      I *think* that TWF & ambidex should have no affect on natural weapons
      which may be possible with a particularly sneakily coded bonus, though
      my feeble attempts appear to have failed.

      -James McP
    • Eddy Anthony
      ... Hi James, your findings are spot on. This is, unfortunately, a known issue. The bonuses which effect off-hand attacks also effect secondary natural attacks
      Message 2 of 4 , May 1, 2006
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        kigmatzomat scribed:

        > Hi there,
        >
        > One of the players IMC has a dragon disciple/rogue and ran into
        > something kinda funny with the natural weapons & ambidex/TWF. I'm
        > using some homebrew LSTs but I was able to recreate the issue with SRD
        > files.
        >
        > In 3.0 mode (PCGen 5.10RC1) load the SRD complete. Make a human
        > fighter, all stats 10, and give him a 5 levels (pick any feats you
        > want EXCEPT ambidex, TWF & weapon focus). Now make him a half-dragon
        > and give him a short sword for comparison.
        >
        > Lets check the character sheet
        > short sword +9 +5+9 +3+5 +1
        > bite +9
        > claw +4/+4
        >
        > Now add ambidexterity feat
        > short sword +9 +9 +9 +3+5 +5
        > bite +9
        > claw +8/+8
        >
        > add TWF feat to the mix
        > short sword +9 +9+9 +5+7 +7
        > bite +9
        > claw +10/+10
        >
        > The issue is that a normal "off-hand" is at -8 while secondary natural
        > weapons are listed more as an iterative attack (-5). When you give
        > the +2/+2 of TWF and the +4 of Ambidex, the claws actually become
        > higher than the normal attack. (BAB -5 +6)
        >
        > I *think* that TWF & ambidex should have no affect on natural weapons
        > which may be possible with a particularly sneakily coded bonus, though
        > my feeble attempts appear to have failed.
        >
        > -James McP

        Hi James, your findings are spot on. This is, unfortunately, a known issue.
        The bonuses which effect off-hand attacks also effect secondary natural
        attacks (and vice versa) with little way to differentiate between the two.

        This is one aspect of natural weapons which will hopefully be worked on this
        cycle. Discussions have been ongoing over experimental regarding this
        --
        ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
        ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
      • kigmatzomat
        ... issue. With this being an RC I wasn t sure if it was a bug that someone had tried to fix, a bug that had been fixed but reverted, or a bug that had just
        Message 3 of 4 , May 2, 2006
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
          >
          > kigmatzomat scribed:
          > >
          > > The issue is that a normal "off-hand" is at -8 while secondary natural
          > > weapons are listed more as an iterative attack (-5). When you give
          > > the +2/+2 of TWF and the +4 of Ambidex, the claws actually become
          > > higher than the normal attack. (BAB -5 +6)
          >
          >
          > Hi James, your findings are spot on. This is, unfortunately, a known
          issue.

          With this being an RC I wasn't sure if it was a bug that someone had
          tried to fix, a bug that had been fixed but reverted, or a bug that
          had just appeared.

          I wonder if BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural|TOHIT-SECONDARY|-4 works.
          If so, you could just drop that in Ambidex and everything would work.
          I'll give that a shot when I get home from work.

          -James McP
        • Eddy Anthony
          ... Long standing issue. I think I remember trying that one, I believe TOHIT-SECONDARY is not valid in BONUS:WEAPONPROF though. -- ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT) ~
          Message 4 of 4 , May 2, 2006
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            On 5/2/06 9:55 AM, "kigmatzomat" <jamesmcp@...> wrote:

            > With this being an RC I wasn't sure if it was a bug that someone had
            > tried to fix, a bug that had been fixed but reverted, or a bug that
            > had just appeared.
            >
            > I wonder if BONUS:WEAPONPROF=TYPE.Natural|TOHIT-SECONDARY|-4 works.
            > If so, you could just drop that in Ambidex and everything would work.
            > I'll give that a shot when I get home from work.

            Long standing issue. I think I remember trying that one, I believe
            TOHIT-SECONDARY is not valid in BONUS:WEAPONPROF though.
            --
            ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
            ~ PCGen BoD, Data Content Second, Doc Chimp
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