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3.0 Weapon Sizes Rules Question

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  • boomer70
    I am trying to understand all the ins and outs of weapon sizes and wield categories under the 3.0 rules. Here is my problem. The bastard sword and dwarven
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 30, 2006
      I am trying to understand all the ins and outs of
      weapon sizes and wield categories under the 3.0 rules.

      Here is my problem. The bastard sword and dwarven
      waraxe are listed as Medium-sized weapons. The
      bastard sword has the following text in its write up,
      "A Medium-size character can use a bastard sword
      two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature
      can use it one-handed in the same way." Similar text
      exists for the other weapons in this class.

      Now using the rules for wield category vs. weapon
      size, the bastard sword should already be one-handed
      for a Medium character and should be light for an
      Ogre. The text effectively bumps the wield category
      by one step.

      Question, how does this work for non medium or large
      characters? Can I just assume that these weapons bump
      the wield category in all cases? That would seem to
      make sense to me.

      Forgive my ignorance, I am not a 3.0 guy so subtlties
      like this question escape me.

      -Aaron

      ----------------
      Aaron Divinsky
      PCGen Docs 2nd, Data Chimp, Code & Doc Tamarin

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    • Barak
      ... Your missing the difference between 3.0 and 3.5. In 3.0 it is based on the *weapons* size. A bastard sword in 3.0 is Large. In 3.5 they pretty much did
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
        > -----Original Message-----
        > Now using the rules for wield category vs. weapon size, the
        > bastard sword should already be one-handed for a Medium
        > character and should be light for an Ogre. The text
        > effectively bumps the wield category by one step.

        Your missing the difference between 3.0 and 3.5. In 3.0 it is based on the
        *weapons* size. A bastard sword in 3.0 is Large. In 3.5 they pretty much
        did away with the actual size of the weapon in favor of making it be built
        for a certain size character and having a wield category for it.

        If you compare the weapons files from the two datasets (SRD and RSRD), you
        should see that all weapons in the RSRD are Medium sized, while the weapons
        in the SRD are of varying sizes.

        > Question, how does this work for non medium or large
        > characters? Can I just assume that these weapons bump the
        > wield category in all cases? That would seem to make sense to me.

        In 3.0 you need to compare the weapons actual size to the PCs size to
        determine how it may be wielded.

        Weapon is more than one smaller than PC: Unusable
        Weapon is one smaller than PC: Light
        Weapon is same size as PC: One-handed
        Weapon is one larger than PC: Two-Handed
        Weapon is more than one larger than PC: Unusable

        Does that help?

        Barak
      • boomer70
        ... Actually I am unfortunately well aware of the differences. In the SRD the bastard sword is NOT Large as it should be it is Medium-sized. This is why I
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
          --- Barak <barak@...> wrote:

          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > Now using the rules for wield category vs. weapon
          > size, the
          > > bastard sword should already be one-handed for a
          > Medium
          > > character and should be light for an Ogre. The
          > text
          > > effectively bumps the wield category by one step.
          >
          >
          > Your missing the difference between 3.0 and 3.5. In
          > 3.0 it is based on the
          > *weapons* size. A bastard sword in 3.0 is Large.
          > In 3.5 they pretty much
          > did away with the actual size of the weapon in favor
          > of making it be built
          > for a certain size character and having a wield
          > category for it.
          >

          Actually I am unfortunately well aware of the
          differences. In the SRD the bastard sword is NOT
          Large as it should be it is Medium-sized.

          This is why I asked the question. If it were large it
          would work fine. The problem is if it is Medium then
          the whole 1H/2H thing is backwards. A Medium creature
          can use a Medium weapon in 1 Hand. The bastard sword
          as a medium weapon then has to penalize everyone
          except those with EWP. What is even worse though, is
          that they specifically state a Large creature can use
          the thing one handed as though it were a large weapon.

          Basically my question is, does anyone know if that
          pattern is true universally? Basically what it
          amounts to is that a bastard sword (I am going to
          start using Katana in these examples, less to type)
          adds one to its effective size for wield purposes
          unless you have EWP.

          Of course that brings up an interesting question that
          is present in both 3.0 and 3.5. Can an Ogre with EWP
          (Katana) wield the thing as a light weapon?


          > If you compare the weapons files from the two
          > datasets (SRD and RSRD), you
          > should see that all weapons in the RSRD are Medium
          > sized, while the weapons
          > in the SRD are of varying sizes.
          >
          > > Question, how does this work for non medium or
          > large
          > > characters? Can I just assume that these weapons
          > bump the
          > > wield category in all cases? That would seem to
          > make sense to me.
          >
          > In 3.0 you need to compare the weapons actual size
          > to the PCs size to
          > determine how it may be wielded.
          >
          > Weapon is more than one smaller than PC: Unusable

          In 3.0 that is clearly not the case. A dagger is a
          Tiny weapon. That's two sizes smaller than a M
          creature. Humans clearly use daggers as Light
          weapons.

          Also I could not find any text that ever talked about
          a weapon being too small to use. The only thing I
          could find is that if a weapon is shrunk so that it
          does less that one point of damage it is no longer an
          effective weapon.


          > Weapon is one smaller than PC: Light
          > Weapon is same size as PC: One-handed
          > Weapon is one larger than PC: Two-Handed
          > Weapon is more than one larger than PC: Unusable
          >


          -Aaron

          ----------------
          Aaron Divinsky
          PCGen Docs 2nd, Data Chimp, Code & Doc Tamarin

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • taluroniscandar
          ... Thats pretty much the scenario. Dwarven Waraxe, BasSwd and Fullblade (from S&F splat book) all had effectively the same verbage and effect. ... Hm, looking
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
            > Actually I am unfortunately well aware of the
            > differences. In the SRD the bastard sword is NOT
            > Large as it should be it is Medium-sized.
            >
            > This is why I asked the question. If it were large it
            > would work fine. The problem is if it is Medium then
            > the whole 1H/2H thing is backwards. A Medium creature
            > can use a Medium weapon in 1 Hand. The bastard sword
            > as a medium weapon then has to penalize everyone
            > except those with EWP. What is even worse though, is
            > that they specifically state a Large creature can use
            > the thing one handed as though it were a large weapon.
            >
            > Basically my question is, does anyone know if that
            > pattern is true universally? Basically what it
            > amounts to is that a bastard sword (I am going to
            > start using Katana in these examples, less to type)
            > adds one to its effective size for wield purposes
            > unless you have EWP.

            Thats pretty much the scenario. Dwarven Waraxe, BasSwd and Fullblade
            (from S&F splat book) all had effectively the same verbage and effect.


            > Of course that brings up an interesting question that
            > is present in both 3.0 and 3.5. Can an Ogre with EWP
            > (Katana) wield the thing as a light weapon?
            > > If you compare the weapons files from the two
            > > datasets (SRD and RSRD), you
            > > should see that all weapons in the RSRD are Medium
            > > sized, while the weapons
            > > in the SRD are of varying sizes.
            > >
            > > > Question, how does this work for non medium or
            > > large
            > > > characters? Can I just assume that these weapons
            > > bump the
            > > > wield category in all cases? That would seem to
            > > make sense to me.
            > >
            > > In 3.0 you need to compare the weapons actual size
            > > to the PCs size to
            > > determine how it may be wielded.
            > >
            > > Weapon is more than one smaller than PC: Unusable
            >
            > In 3.0 that is clearly not the case. A dagger is a
            > Tiny weapon. That's two sizes smaller than a M
            > creature. Humans clearly use daggers as Light
            > weapons.
            >
            > Also I could not find any text that ever talked about
            > a weapon being too small to use. The only thing I
            > could find is that if a weapon is shrunk so that it
            > does less that one point of damage it is no longer an
            > effective weapon.
            >
            >
            > > Weapon is one smaller than PC: Light
            > > Weapon is same size as PC: One-handed
            > > Weapon is one larger than PC: Two-Handed
            > > Weapon is more than one larger than PC: Unusable

            Hm, looking at the SRD (stored here in the Files area for our
            convenience) any weapon smaller than the user is light, not just one
            that is one step smaller.

            So to answer "Can an Ogre with EWP (Katana) wield the thing as a light
            weapon?" I'd say yes but another could rule the other way.
          • Bragalus
            Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. A weapon s size category
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
              Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

              A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

              Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

              The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: boomer70
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:15 AM
              Subject: RE: [pcgen] 3.0 Weapon Sizes Rules Question




              --- Barak <barak@...> wrote:

              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > Now using the rules for wield category vs. weapon
              > size, the
              > > bastard sword should already be one-handed for a
              > Medium
              > > character and should be light for an Ogre. The
              > text
              > > effectively bumps the wield category by one step.
              >
              >
              > Your missing the difference between 3.0 and 3.5. In
              > 3.0 it is based on the
              > *weapons* size. A bastard sword in 3.0 is Large.
              > In 3.5 they pretty much
              > did away with the actual size of the weapon in favor
              > of making it be built
              > for a certain size character and having a wield
              > category for it.
              >

              Actually I am unfortunately well aware of the
              differences. In the SRD the bastard sword is NOT
              Large as it should be it is Medium-sized.

              This is why I asked the question. If it were large it
              would work fine. The problem is if it is Medium then
              the whole 1H/2H thing is backwards. A Medium creature
              can use a Medium weapon in 1 Hand. The bastard sword
              as a medium weapon then has to penalize everyone
              except those with EWP. What is even worse though, is
              that they specifically state a Large creature can use
              the thing one handed as though it were a large weapon.

              Basically my question is, does anyone know if that
              pattern is true universally? Basically what it
              amounts to is that a bastard sword (I am going to
              start using Katana in these examples, less to type)
              adds one to its effective size for wield purposes
              unless you have EWP.

              Of course that brings up an interesting question that
              is present in both 3.0 and 3.5. Can an Ogre with EWP
              (Katana) wield the thing as a light weapon?


              > If you compare the weapons files from the two
              > datasets (SRD and RSRD), you
              > should see that all weapons in the RSRD are Medium
              > sized, while the weapons
              > in the SRD are of varying sizes.
              >
              > > Question, how does this work for non medium or
              > large
              > > characters? Can I just assume that these weapons
              > bump the
              > > wield category in all cases? That would seem to
              > make sense to me.
              >
              > In 3.0 you need to compare the weapons actual size
              > to the PCs size to
              > determine how it may be wielded.
              >
              > Weapon is more than one smaller than PC: Unusable

              In 3.0 that is clearly not the case. A dagger is a
              Tiny weapon. That's two sizes smaller than a M
              creature. Humans clearly use daggers as Light
              weapons.

              Also I could not find any text that ever talked about
              a weapon being too small to use. The only thing I
              could find is that if a weapon is shrunk so that it
              does less that one point of damage it is no longer an
              effective weapon.


              > Weapon is one smaller than PC: Light
              > Weapon is same size as PC: One-handed
              > Weapon is one larger than PC: Two-Handed
              > Weapon is more than one larger than PC: Unusable
              >


              -Aaron

              ----------------
              Aaron Divinsky
              PCGen Docs 2nd, Data Chimp, Code & Doc Tamarin



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