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Re: [pcgen] Add Common Stat Roll methods to gameModes

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  • Éric Beaudoin
    ... Well, if you re-roll the ones until you can something that is not a one, you have a 20% probability for each 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 result. That s what I assume
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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      At 13:37 2005.10.01, Stefan Radermacher wrote:
      >Éric Beaudoin wrote:
      >>> ROLLMETHOD:4d6, reroll ones, then drop lowest [tab] METHOD: ???
      >>
      >> That would be 4 (d5+1) and keep the three highest. I don't know how to put the +1 in the but for the d5, you just have to replace the 6 with a 5.
      >
      >That is not identical from a statistical point of view. 4d6 and re-roll
      >ones has 2 at 33% probability and 3-6 at 16% each; your method has all
      >numbers 2-5 at 20%.
      >
      >Regards,
      >Stefan.

      Well, if you re-roll the ones until you can something that is not a one, you have a 20% probability for each 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 result. That's what I assume the user wanted because that's the home rule I use.

      If you have only one chance to re-roll the one, you right, the probability is not the same. You have 1/36 to still get a one and 11/30 to get each one of the other results. You are in for a pretty messed up expression four your dice.

      I don't see how re-rolling the one a particular dice make it more probable to get a two. No mater if you re-roll the one 1 time or multiple time, the probability to get any other result on the dice will be evenly distributed.




      -----------------------------------------------------------
      Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
      Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
      Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
      >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
      >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
      <mailto:beaudoer@...>
    • Éric Beaudoin
      ... 11/30 is not accurate (I need coffee). It should be 7/36. So if you drop the 1, you roll a d35 and divide the result by 7 and this is the same as rolling a
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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        At 13:51 2005.10.01, Éric Beaudoin wrote:
        >If you have only one chance to re-roll the one, you right, the probability is not the same. You have 1/36 to still get a one and 11/30 to get each one of the other results. You are in for a pretty messed up expression four your dice.

        11/30 is not accurate (I need coffee). It should be 7/36. So if you drop the 1, you roll a d35 and divide the result by 7 and this is the same as rolling a d6 and re-rolling once if you get a one. So in rnd(35) return a random value in [ 0 .. 34 ], the dice expression would be floor(rnd(35)/7)+1.



        -----------------------------------------------------------
        Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
        Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
        Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
        >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
        >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
        <mailto:beaudoer@...>
      • Éric Beaudoin
        ... I really need that cooffee, I forgot to account the 1/36 to get the one and nothing pop up right. I ll try again later after my coffee. ... Éric Beaudoin
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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          At 13:58 2005.10.01, Éric Beaudoin wrote:
          >11/30 is not accurate (I need coffee). It should be 7/36. So if you drop the 1, you roll a d35 and divide the result by 7 and this is the same as rolling a d6 and re-rolling once if you get a one. So in rnd(35) return a random value in [ 0 .. 34 ], the dice expression would be floor(rnd(35)/7)+1.

          I really need that cooffee, I forgot to account the 1/36 to get the one and nothing pop up right. I'll try again later after my coffee.


          -----------------------------------------------------------
          Éric Beaudoin <mailto:beaudoer@...>

          CONCORDE: It goes twice as fast as a bullet and you get smoked salmon.
          -- From A Scientific Encyclopedia for the Enquiring Young Nome
          by Angalo de Haberdasheri
          (Terry Pratchett, Wings)
        • Éric Beaudoin
          ... Ha coffee, let s do this again. We want a formula that has the same probabilistic result as the event rolling a d6 and re-rolling the d6 once if the result
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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            At 14:01 2005.10.01, Éric Beaudoin wrote:
            >At 13:58 2005.10.01, Éric Beaudoin wrote:
            >>11/30 is not accurate (I need coffee). It should be 7/36. So if you drop the 1, you roll a d35 and divide the result by 7 and this is the same as rolling a d6 and re-rolling once if you get a one. So in rnd(35) return a random value in [ 0 .. 34 ], the dice expression would be floor(rnd(35)/7)+1.
            >
            >I really need that cooffee, I forgot to account the 1/36 to get the one and nothing pop up right. I'll try again later after my coffee.


            Ha coffee, let's do this again.

            We want a formula that has the same probabilistic result as the event rolling a d6 and re-rolling the d6 once if the result for the first roll is 1.

            The probability to get a result of 1 is 1/36. The probability to get any of the other result (2, 3, 4, 5 and 6) is 7/36.

            Let rnd(36) returns a random value that is >= 0 and < 36

            customroll() = floor((rnd(36)+6)/7)+1

            If we use d36 as a function that return a value that is >= 1 and <= 36, we have the following

            customroll() = floor((d36+5)/7)+1

            I think I got it this time. It's really easy so it makes you wonder what I was thinking earlier. Another proof that coffee is indeed a drug.

            Value of d36 Result
            ------------ ------
            1 1
            2 2
            3 2
            4 2
            5 2
            6 2
            7 2
            8 2
            9 3
            10 3
            11 3
            12 3
            13 3
            14 3
            15 3
            16 4
            17 4
            18 4
            19 4
            20 4
            21 4
            22 4
            23 5
            24 5
            25 5
            26 5
            27 5
            28 5
            29 5
            30 6
            31 6
            32 6
            33 6
            34 6
            35 6
            36 6


            -----------------------------------------------------------
            Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
            Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
            Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
            >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
            >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
            <mailto:beaudoer@...>
          • Eddy Anthony
            ... If you keep dropping the 1 and reroll until it s not a 1 then that statistically amounts to 1d5+1 right? If you keep a 1 on the reroll then the odds get
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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              David M. Bebber scribed:

              > I use a varient of the first method: 4d6, reroll ones, then drop lowest.
              > how would you code that?

              If you keep dropping the 1 and reroll until it's not a 1 then that
              statistically amounts to 1d5+1 right? If you keep a 1 on the reroll then the
              odds get complicated, I'm not sure how that would be formulated here.

              But, I don't know how integer additions fit into the syntax of this tag (or
              even if they do), I tried this:

              ROLLMETHOD:4d6, reroll ones, then drop lowest[tab]METHOD:roll(4,5+1,[2,3,4])

              And it seems to work. But maybe not, I changed it to
              METHOD:roll(4,5+10,[2,3,4]) just to see what I'd get, I expected results 30
              points above average but instead I got numbers from the teens on into the
              40's so I really don't know what this is doing.

              One thing I have noticed is that the preference window does not remember
              which one you have selected, every time you open the preferences the menu
              defaults to the first method encountered in the miscinfo.lst file which is
              somewhat inconvenient.
              --
              ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
              ~ PCGen Content Silverback
            • Éric Beaudoin
              ... METHOD appears to accept djep expressions. For example, the 3d6 is written simply 3d6. Is there anywhere we can find the full doc for djep or even just for
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                At 14:47 2005.10.01, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                >But, I don't know how integer additions fit into the syntax of this tag (or
                >even if they do), I tried this:
                >
                >ROLLMETHOD:4d6, reroll ones, then drop lowest[tab]METHOD:roll(4,5+1,[2,3,4])

                METHOD appears to accept djep expressions. For example, the 3d6 is written simply 3d6.

                Is there anywhere we can find the full doc for djep or even just for the roll function? My memory tells me that it is a modification of the standard jep parser but I don't remember if it was done in-house or if we got the code from somewhere. There is no license text for djep.jar in the lib folder.

                Anybody knows?


                -----------------------------------------------------------
                Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                <mailto:beaudoer@...>
              • Devon Jones
                ... it was contributed by one of our coders I think it was Ross Lodge. If it s useing djep, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff, even (1d2)d6 or 3d(1d4)+5
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                  Éric Beaudoin wrote:

                  >At 14:47 2005.10.01, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>But, I don't know how integer additions fit into the syntax of this tag (or
                  >>even if they do), I tried this:
                  >>
                  >>ROLLMETHOD:4d6, reroll ones, then drop lowest[tab]METHOD:roll(4,5+1,[2,3,4])
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >METHOD appears to accept djep expressions. For example, the 3d6 is written simply 3d6.
                  >
                  >Is there anywhere we can find the full doc for djep or even just for the roll function? My memory tells me that it is a modification of the standard jep parser but I don't remember if it was done in-house or if we got the code from somewhere. There is no license text for djep.jar in the lib folder.
                  >
                  >Anybody knows?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  it was contributed by one of our coders I think it was Ross Lodge. If
                  it's useing djep, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff, even (1d2)d6 or
                  3d(1d4)+5

                  it's pretty cool ;)

                  Devon
                • Éric Beaudoin
                  ... I ve look into the doc and I saw some of the coolness you describe but I can t find any reference to the roll() function. Any clue on this? Also, if it was
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                    At 16:10 2005.10.01, Devon Jones wrote:
                    >it was contributed by one of our coders I think it was Ross Lodge. If
                    >it's useing djep, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff, even (1d2)d6 or
                    >3d(1d4)+5
                    >
                    >it's pretty cool ;)
                    >
                    >Devon

                    I've look into the doc and I saw some of the coolness you describe but I can't find any reference to the roll() function. Any clue on this?

                    Also, if it was contributed by someone in the PCGen family, we should put out a license text for it and 1) recognize the contribution 2) give it a license that is compatible with the jep license if it is based on the jep source code. Do we have the source for djet BTW?


                    -----------------------------------------------------------
                    Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                    Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                    Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                    >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                    >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                    <mailto:beaudoer@...>
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    ... I asked Greg Bingleman about this recently, he was able to pass me a couple ... This was for the KIT FUNDS tag which can do random starting gold, its about
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                      Éric Beaudoin scribed:

                      > I've look into the doc and I saw some of the coolness you describe but I can't
                      > find any reference to the roll() function. Any clue on this?

                      I asked Greg Bingleman about this recently, he was able to pass me a couple
                      of examples:

                      > Try QTY:roll("2d4")

                      > HARP uses:
                      > FUNDS:GP QTY:roll("10+1d10")

                      This was for the KIT FUNDS tag which can do random starting gold, its about
                      the only place in PCGen (besides the stat METHOD) where this would be
                      useful right now because any other place you would use this in a formula
                      PCGen would roll a new number every time you changed tabs.

                      As always, its on my agenda to get this in the docs along with the random
                      stat rolling stuff and all the other cool toys Greg's thrown in lately.
                      --
                      ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                      ~ PCGen Content Silverback
                    • Éric Beaudoin
                      ... Happy to ear that. If you point me to the code where the roll function is define, I m willing to try to see what it does. I don t write Java but I can read
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                        At 16:34 2005.10.01, Eddy Anthony wrote:
                        >Éric Beaudoin scribed:
                        >
                        >> I've look into the doc and I saw some of the coolness you describe but I can't
                        >> find any reference to the roll() function. Any clue on this?
                        >
                        >I asked Greg Bingleman about this recently, he was able to pass me a couple
                        >of examples:
                        >
                        >> Try QTY:roll("2d4")
                        >
                        >> HARP uses:
                        >> FUNDS:GP QTY:roll("10+1d10")
                        >
                        >This was for the KIT FUNDS tag which can do random starting gold, its about
                        >the only place in PCGen (besides the stat METHOD) where this would be
                        >useful right now because any other place you would use this in a formula
                        >PCGen would roll a new number every time you changed tabs.
                        >
                        >As always, its on my agenda to get this in the docs along with the random
                        >stat rolling stuff and all the other cool toys Greg's thrown in lately.

                        Happy to ear that.

                        If you point me to the code where the roll function is define, I'm willing to try to see what it does. I don't write Java but I can read it sometimes :-).

                        In this case, I'm very interested to find out how I could make PCGen use (roll) a dice expression a number of time and keep the x greatest (or lowest) rolls out of n. This is what is needed to implement the funky house-rules methods that some users (including me) use.


                        -----------------------------------------------------------
                        Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                        Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                        Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                        >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                        >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                        <mailto:beaudoer@...>
                      • Eddy Anthony
                        ... Ask Greg, I can t even read it. ... Me too, me know what you learn and I ll include it in the doc entry. -- ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT) ~ PCGen Content
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                          Éric Beaudoin scribed:

                          > If you point me to the code where the roll function is define, I'm willing to
                          > try to see what it does. I don't write Java but I can read it sometimes :-).


                          Ask Greg, I can't even read it.

                          > In this case, I'm very interested to find out how I could make PCGen use
                          > (roll) a dice expression a number of time and keep the x greatest (or lowest)
                          > rolls out of n. This is what is needed to implement the funky house-rules
                          > methods that some users (including me) use.

                          Me too, me know what you learn and I'll include it in the doc entry.
                          --
                          ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                          ~ PCGen Content Silverback
                        • Devon Jones
                          ... Yes, the source is *inside* the jar ;) Devon
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                            Éric Beaudoin wrote:

                            >At 16:10 2005.10.01, Devon Jones wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >>it was contributed by one of our coders I think it was Ross Lodge. If
                            >>it's useing djep, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff, even (1d2)d6 or
                            >>3d(1d4)+5
                            >>
                            >>it's pretty cool ;)
                            >>
                            >>Devon
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >I've look into the doc and I saw some of the coolness you describe but I can't find any reference to the roll() function. Any clue on this?
                            >
                            >Also, if it was contributed by someone in the PCGen family, we should put out a license text for it and 1) recognize the contribution 2) give it a license that is compatible with the jep license if it is based on the jep source code. Do we have the source for djet BTW?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            Yes, the source is *inside* the jar ;)

                            Devon
                          • Éric Beaudoin
                            ... Let s pretend for a second that the only thing I know about the .jar file generation is that I have to type ant clean build test when I want to build the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                              At 17:28 2005.10.01, Devon Jones wrote:
                              >>Also, if it was contributed by someone in the PCGen family, we should put out a license text for it and 1) recognize the contribution 2) give it a license that is compatible with the jep license if it is based on the jep source code. Do we have the source for djet BTW?
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >Yes, the source is *inside* the jar ;)
                              >
                              >Devon

                              Let's pretend for a second that the only thing I know about the .jar file generation is that I have to type "ant clean build test" when I want to build the PCGen .jar files. How can I get the source out of a .jar that I do not compile myself?


                              -----------------------------------------------------------
                              Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                              Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                              Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                              >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                              >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                              <mailto:beaudoer@...>
                            • Byngl
                              The file you want is src/java/pcgen/util/PJEP.java Do a search for: 10+d10 That ll get you to the definition of the function, but won t be entirely helpful.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                The file you want is src/java/pcgen/util/PJEP.java
                                Do a search for: 10+d10

                                That'll get you to the definition of the function, but won't be
                                entirely helpful. What you need to look at is
                                src/java/pcgen/util/DiceExpression.jj. This file defines the grammar
                                used to parse the dice expressions. It gets run through javaCC (Java
                                Compiler Compiler). The .jj file is credited to binkley, so if you'd
                                like more info, he'd be the one to contact.

                                Byngl

                                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
                                > Éric Beaudoin scribed:
                                >
                                > > If you point me to the code where the roll function is define,
                                I'm willing to
                                > > try to see what it does. I don't write Java but I can read it
                                sometimes :-).
                                >
                                >
                                > Ask Greg, I can't even read it.
                                >
                                > > In this case, I'm very interested to find out how I could make
                                PCGen use
                                > > (roll) a dice expression a number of time and keep the x greatest
                                (or lowest)
                                > > rolls out of n. This is what is needed to implement the funky
                                house-rules
                                > > methods that some users (including me) use.
                                >
                                > Me too, me know what you learn and I'll include it in the doc entry.
                                > --
                                > ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                                > ~ PCGen Content Silverback
                              • Éric Beaudoin
                                ... Here s what I can tell about the roll function: We can invoke the function multiple ways. What the function do is based on the number and type of the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 1, 2005
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                                  At 19:01 2005.10.01, Byngl wrote:
                                  >That'll get you to the definition of the function, but won't be
                                  >entirely helpful. What you need to look at is
                                  >src/java/pcgen/util/DiceExpression.jj. This file defines the grammar
                                  >used to parse the dice expressions. It gets run through javaCC (Java
                                  >Compiler Compiler). The .jj file is credited to binkley, so if you'd
                                  >like more info, he'd be the one to contact.
                                  >
                                  >Byngl

                                  Here's what I can tell about the roll function:

                                  We can invoke the function multiple ways. What the function do is based on the number and type of the parameters.

                                  The type can be integer, array of integer or string.

                                  The roll functions appear to be all defined in \src\java\pcgen\util\DiceExpressionFunctions.java and they all call RollingMethods.roll in \src\java\pcgen\core\RollingMethods.java

                                  When using the roll function, numbers are treated as integer, list of coma separate integer enclosed in [] are treated as array of integers, characters enclosed in "" are treated as strings. I do not know for sure how a string without the "" is interpreted but I think the parser somehow tries to convert it to integer before feed the functions (e.g.. 3d6 without the "" would be seen as 3 or 6 or 36, 5+1 would probably be 6).

                                  The possible ways to call the roll functions are:

                                  General note: all the roll function returns the total of all rolls performed

                                  roll(times,sides) times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  sides => integer, type of dice to roll
                                  e.g. roll(3,6) == 3d6

                                  roll(sides) sides => integer, type of dice to roll
                                  e.g. roll(6) == 1d6
                                  note: this is one form that do not call
                                  RollingMethods.roll but call Globals.getRandomInt
                                  directly instead

                                  roll(times,sides,[keep])
                                  times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  sides => integer, type of dice to roll
                                  [keep] => array of integer, index of the dice
                                  we want to keep. The dices are sorted
                                  from the lower result (index = 1) to
                                  the largest result (index = times)
                                  e.g. roll(4,6,[2,3,4]) == 4d6, keep the three best

                                  roll(times,[sides]) times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  [sides] => array of integer, possible dice to choose
                                  from randomly
                                  e.g. roll(4,[4,6]) == roll four times, each time you
                                  randomly choose a d4 or a d6
                                  note: this is one form that do not call
                                  RollingMethods.roll but call Globals.getRandomInt
                                  directly instead.
                                  Whoever code this called it bizarre dice
                                  rolling with good reason.

                                  roll(times,[sides],[keep])
                                  times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  [sides] => array of integer, possible dice to choose
                                  [keep] => array of integer, index of the dice
                                  we want to keep. The dices are sorted
                                  from the lower result (index = 1) to
                                  the largest result (index = times)
                                  e.g. roll(4,[4,6],[3,4])
                                  == roll four times, each time you randomly
                                  choose a d4 or a d6, and you keep only the
                                  two best results
                                  note: this is one form that do not call
                                  RollingMethods.roll but call Globals.getRandomInt
                                  directly instead.
                                  Whoever code this called it bizarre dice
                                  rolling with good reason.

                                  roll("djep") "djep" => string, djep expression that gets fed to the
                                  djep parser
                                  e.g. roll("3d6") == 3d6

                                  And the last but certainly not the least clear

                                  roll(times,sides,modifier,keep,reroll_value)
                                  times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  sides => integer, type of dice to roll
                                  modifier => integer, value that gets added to the total
                                  after all the rolls are done
                                  keep => integer, number of dices to keep, the lower
                                  values are dropped
                                  reroll_value => integer, if the result is not greater
                                  then reroll_value, roll again (multiple
                                  times is necessary)
                                  e.g. roll(4,6,10,3,2)
                                  == roll 4d6, reroll any 1 or 2, keep the 3
                                  highest values, and add 10 to the total

                                  Well, this is a bit ugly and it doesn't allow us to do everything we need. So I ask for three FREQ.

                                  1) Please, put all the existing way to call roll in the documentation before we
                                  forget. I really don't want to do this again (my nose is bleeding!)

                                  2) Two new form of rolls (really, we don't nearly have enough of them)

                                  roll(times,"djep")
                                  roll(times,"djep",[keep])
                                  times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  "djep" => string, djep expression that gets fed to the
                                  djep parser
                                  [keep] => array of integer, index of the dice
                                  we want to keep. The dices are sorted
                                  from the lower result (index = 1) to
                                  the largest result (index = times)
                                  e.g. roll(3,"1d5+1") == evaluate the djep expression
                                  1d5+1 three times and return the total
                                  e.g. roll(4,"1d5+1",[2,3,4])
                                  == evaluate the djep expression 1d5+1 four
                                  times and return the sum of the three
                                  highest values

                                  maybe roll(times,"djep",keep) could also be done
                                  times => integer, number of time to roll
                                  "djep" => string, djep expression that gets fed to the
                                  djep parser
                                  keep => integer, number of dices to keep, the lower
                                  values are dropped
                                  e.g. roll(4,"1d5+1",3)
                                  == evaluate the djep expression 1d5+1 four
                                  times and keep the three highest values

                                  I'm not sure though since it add complexity and if we have to choose, I prefer we keep the more versatile [keep] version. I think we should be OK with only three form that use "djep".

                                  3) We deprecate all the forms that do not use djep. Let's face it, roll("3d6")
                                  or roll(3,"d6") are way clearer then roll(3,6). The djep expressions allow
                                  us to do way more.

                                  Well, that's about it.

                                  -----------------------------------------------------------
                                  Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                                  Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                                  Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                                  >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                                  >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                                  <mailto:beaudoer@...>
                                • Devon Jones
                                  ... Oh, heh :) It s a zip file. just rename it to .zip, and you can open it with your favorite zip tool (or, if you use a command line program, you don t even
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 2, 2005
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                                    Éric Beaudoin wrote:

                                    >At 17:28 2005.10.01, Devon Jones wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>>Also, if it was contributed by someone in the PCGen family, we should put out a license text for it and 1) recognize the contribution 2) give it a license that is compatible with the jep license if it is based on the jep source code. Do we have the source for djet BTW?
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>Yes, the source is *inside* the jar ;)
                                    >>
                                    >>Devon
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >Let's pretend for a second that the only thing I know about the .jar file generation is that I have to type "ant clean build test" when I want to build the PCGen .jar files. How can I get the source out of a .jar that I do not compile myself?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Oh, heh :) It's a zip file. just rename it to .zip, and you can open it
                                    with your favorite zip tool (or, if you use a command line program, you
                                    don't even need to rename it to .zip for many of them).

                                    Devon
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