Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [pcgen] BoD log - 8/14/05

Expand Messages
  • Kurt Wimmer
    Would it be possible to have both the minutes and the log - I find the minutes far more immediately useful. A single email with minutes at the top would be
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Would it be possible to have both the minutes and the log - I find the
      minutes far more "immediately" useful.
      A single email with minutes at the top would be great :)

      And then this back and forth between the log and minutes every so often
      could stop :)

      The log just lets the people figure out how the minutes came to be, if
      their really that interested in knowing.

      Kurt


      Paul W. King wrote:

      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> and i now have 9:30 PM EST (GMT -5)
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Code, go
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> not much action on the code front, but we do seem to have
      > more coders involved.
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> activity has picked up a bit, which is nice to see
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's cool
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> any thought of when 5.9.2 should come out?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> andrew wilson and Stefan Radermacher have been coding
      > up a
      > storm :)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think 5.9.2 can't come out soon enough (i.e. now
      > would be
      > nice) :)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> let everyone help make sure that all this coding has
      > broken
      > anything that's not obvious.
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> erm, make sure it *hasn't*....
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> *blush*
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> lol...i knew what you meant
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else Bryan?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> nope, that's it on coding
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Content, go
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> not much to report
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> it's been somewhat quite this week
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> did figure out a few things data wise
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's cool
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> what datasets are in the fire that you know of?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Epic and Arcana are getting the business right now
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> k
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> nope, unless we want to talk about code requests for
      > data
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> sure
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> well I've got one I think would be fairly simple but
      > would help data solve quite a few problems
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> [1250730] PLUSCOST calculations: Add PLUSTOTAL as
      > a COST
      > tag variable
      > <[Content_SB]mosat>
      > <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1250730&group_id=2
      > <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1250730&group_id=2>
      > 5576&atid=384722>
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> This is needed because the plus cost formula for Epic
      > items is different (x10) from non-Epic magic items
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> We have had problems trying to manipulate the PLUSCOST
      > formulas in the gameMode file
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Rather than request complex changes to the PLUSCOST
      > gameMode tag we think we have hit on a simple solution
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> All we need is an additional hardcoded variable we can
      > use in the COST and BONUS:ITEMCOST tags:
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> PLUSTOTAL, this would return the total number of
      > pluses
      > added by the PLUS: tag
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> with this in place we could move the formula out
      > of the
      > gameMode and into the data
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Because all plus costing enhancements require at
      > least a
      > +1 enhancement and all the enhancement EQMODs are mutually exclusive the
      > cost formula could be applied there
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> For example, the +1 enhancement to Armor would include
      > this:
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> +1 (Enhancement to Armor) PLUS:1 COST:1000*PLUS*PLUS
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> With this the Epic plus costs would be simple and this
      > would also solve some other issues like the plus cost of Shuriken
      > (which is
      > currently wrong)
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> best of all the existing code does not need to be
      > removed or altered, we can simply comment out or remove the PLUSCOST tags
      > from the gameMode files
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> hows that?
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> interesting
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> did you follow that Bryan?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> seems fairly straightforward, but BONUS tags usually
      > have 2
      > elements before the formula
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> like BONUS:COMBAT|AC|2
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> BONUS:ITEMCOST|what?|1000*PLUS*PLUS
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> or would it be BONUS:ITEM|COST|formula
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> BONUS:ITEMCOST|TYPE.Thing|1000*PLUS*PLUS
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> TYPE is the element you are looking for
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> it would stay the same syntax, we just need a VAR to
      > return the number of pluses
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> it's been a long time since I've delved into that
      > code, but
      > I don't think this should be that big of a deal
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> we'd need to make sure that all item costs were
      > scrutinized
      > to make sure nothing is broken
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> since this obviously impacts a lot of items (anything
      > magical!)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> this would be something for a coder who has worked in the
      > equipment code before - a 2-3 day type effort just to be safe
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> sure would, but tranfering the formula to the data
      > would
      > be transparent to the user
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> right, but there's till the potential for breakage
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> the cost formula is currently in the code?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> maybe we can talk Devon into fixing it while we're at
      > gencon :)
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> that would be nice
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> there is a cost formula, but I forget the details. this
      > would be in addition to that
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> you just posted it
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> 1000*PLUS*PLUS
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> for armor
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I mean how all the BONUS tags work together for
      > determining
      > cost.
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Oh
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> there's more to it than just BONUS:ITEMCOST... there are
      > actually a few steps to it
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> but I can't recall the exact steps without looking
      > through
      > the code
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I just remember that it was a bit convoluted...
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I have uncovered another issue related to pricing
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> care to hear it?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> sure ;)
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> it concerns specific items
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> they are constructed with EQMODs and the price
      > difference is added to the COST tag
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> the bug is that if the item is resized the new cost is
      > factored using the COST tag value
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> which represents the value of the magical
      > enhancments as
      > well as the cost of the base item
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> it is only the base item which should be refactored
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I have found a solution too
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> good, because my head is spinning! :)
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I've created an EQMOD with which you can add cost
      > to the
      > item, then the COST tag can hold only the cost of the base item and only
      > that is refactored when it is resized
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> he, if that got you then how about this:
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> masterwork and magical EQMODs do not get refactored
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> but
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I believe base materials like Mithral and
      > Adamantine do
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> so if you make a Large Armor out of Mithral it should
      > cost twice as much as the same armor as for a mediium creature
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> but neither our data or CMPs data does this
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> how does it behave now?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> If you make colasal Full plate Mithral armor the full
      > plate will cost 16 times as much but the Mithral EQMOD costs no
      > different as
      > medium sized full plate
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> unfortunately I have not found any explicite rules
      > that
      > say that
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Mithral items other than armor have their cost
      > based on
      > weight so that leaves me to believe that it should work this way
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> hm
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> but I have not found anything in the FAQ or anywhere
      > else
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> you're probably right. maybe we can pin down someone at
      > Wotc at GenCon to make it explicit
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> but what you're saying makes logical sense
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> that would be cool
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else Eddy?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I'm trying to make a list of all these nit picks
      > we have
      > uncovered this year
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> what day will you bet at GenCon? saturday? I'll make a
      > point to go with you to the Wotc booth and see if we can get some answers
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> only that if we need to adjust these EQMODs for size I
      > have a solution for that
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I'll be there saturday, as early as I can, I'm driving
      > overnight
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> OK content status is done
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> early being before 10am?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> yah
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> at least by 10
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> ok, PL
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i still haven't heard from Necromancer Games, but that
      > doesn't surprise me
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i'll email them again next week after GenCon
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> has any thought been given to finding a replacement for
      > Beaver?
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> or ami back to being the PL SB?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> we seem to be running very short handed in the SB
      > dept.
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> true...RL seems to have hit all of us pretty hard this
      > summer
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> you, me, Reed, Paul G, Devon and Eric
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> and few volunteers are working up the ranks
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> code seems to be doing ok, but it seems like all the
      > other
      > teams are hurting
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I just got another code volunteer today - he wants to
      > focus
      > on GMGen type functionality
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> data people seem to be especially hard to come by
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> true, but Frank is a welcome addition
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> hope he doesn't get frustrated by the slow pace
      > progress
      > can take sometimes
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> this is something we'll need to discuss on saturday. if
      > we're having trouble retaining data people, or what the issue is
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> any idea of Kar's comment about being back means
      > he's back
      > to work?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I didn't know Kar had said anything - when/where was
      > that?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> on a tracker, and a post to the main list
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I knew he was back (as in NZ) a long time ago
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I was the only one who replied back to his post
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> cool. I assume he'd contact me or one of us if he
      > wanted to
      > jump back in the BoD
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> he's certainly welcomed back anytime he wants
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I don't get to read all the posts anymore - I wish I had
      > the time to read them all like I used to
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> Getting ready for gencon this year is especially busy!
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll find his post and say hi :)
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's understandable Bryan
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> well, that's all i had for PL
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> TM
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> because of the aforementioned RL, i haven't had a chance
      > to look closely through the 1+ yr old Code Freqs
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i still want to do that, but its looking like not until
      > after Labor Day, as i have 2 separate vacations coming up
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> one with my family, one with Jen's
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> when is labor day this year?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Sept 5
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> thanks Eddy, stepped away to get a Kleenex
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> on a kind of unrelated note, did we ever nail down
      > the spec
      > for 5.10?
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> yes, it was going to clean my toilet :D
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I know we had discussed it, but I don't recall any firm
      > conclusion
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> well data has a list of datasets, including
      > getting full
      > support done for the xSRDs
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> and be compatible with your coffee grinder
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> ans I presented a list of features data would like to
      > get code support for
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i think full support of the xSRDs is probably a good
      > goal
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> we even got the community to prioritize it
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> have you trackered those requests Eddy?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think we need to make the spec prominently displayed on
      > the SF page so everyone can see what we're shooting for
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> but I have not heard what the code team is
      > committed to
      > other than that they are working on the ability objetc first
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> and so Paul, or some other TM we can bribe/prod into the
      > job, can go and prioritize all the trackers accordingly...
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I think they are all trackered
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> frugal made an attempt, and then it got delayed, right?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll have to talk to devon about what the current
      > status of
      > that project is.
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> if not it is because that exact appraouch on how
      > to deal
      > with the issues has not been worked out
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> it has a big impact on what data can be done as well
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> no, i believe Frugal was working on CDOM, not the
      > Ability
      > object
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> right
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> oh - that's right. I got them mixed up.
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> he wasn't able to start
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> ok, I'm still not sure where the ability object is code
      > wise
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I haven't heard anything about it in a few weeks
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> ok, i'm done with TM, and we've already drifted into
      > open
      > discussion
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I do want to discuss a PCGen getogether
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> sounds like it will be lunch on saturday since Eddy
      > will be
      > there then
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> are we done with 5.10 spec scope?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> :-)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> we need Devon for the 5.10 discussion
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll corner him at gencon :)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think the CMP booth is 454 if anyone wants to come
      > bug me
      > and see our big inflatable monkeys :)
      > <AlphaSEQ> scifi monkeys
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> alright, corner Devon at GenCon
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> what about scifi monkeys AlphaSEQ?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> all monkeys are scifi fans
      > <AlphaSEQ> seen the scifi blurb where the guy blows up the dog like a
      > balloon?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll post an announcement about the pcgen get-together on
      > saturday
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> oh yeah - I've seen that commercial!
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> Scifi just went to a different cable package so I
      > don't get
      > it anymore :(
      > <AlphaSEQ> so, instead of a dog, you've blown up some monkeys
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> not seen that commercial
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> but it sounds appropriate
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll probably end up having to blow up the monkey again
      > this year...
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else on the GenCon get-together?
      > <AlphaSEQ> how many total monkeys are there working on the various
      > subparts
      > of pcgen?
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> hey, i helped last year
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> heh
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> good question AlphaSEQ
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I don't know, but only 4 can sit at any one time ;)
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> on the PL team, its just me
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> the OGL team is Paul G, Larry Plympton (whom i haven't
      > seen in quite some time) and myself
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Docs: me, OS:Chuck pint
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> we need more members on the PL team! and the data
      > team, and
      > OGL, and... well, just about every team!
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Data: there are about five guys
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> trackers are me, Eddy, Papa, Ravagon and, i think,
      > Andargor (there may be others who post occasionally...i can't recall
      > everyone
      > <AlphaSEQ> I wonder if part of the issue with Data is the fact that
      > the most
      > wanted/needed files aren't OGL
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> there are alot of non-active monkeys out there
      > <AlphaSEQ> e.g. FR, Eberron, WotC addons, etc...
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> the data team used to be big
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> could be
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i think the biggest contributing data monkeys are, in no
      > particular order:
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> maybe thats the reason for the decline
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Tir, Barak, Doug, Eddy, myself and Kar
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP doesn't have many data monkeys either, so I don't
      > think
      > it's an OGL-or-not type issue
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> there are more, but i think that group contains the ones
      > who've done the most
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I think it takes a particular person
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh, forgot Mynex
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> one who like the logic challange of it
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> yeah, some stuff is *quite* convoluted
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah, it's definitely a skill.
      > <AlphaSEQ> does CMP accept outside coders and if so, how do they reimburse
      > them since they are a for-profit company?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I've always been amazed at what you data monkeys can get
      > to work considering what you have to work with!
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> It's may main hobby right now, spend much more time in
      > the data and the docs than I do actually gaming
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> outside coders for what? nothing more is being done on
      > ETools, and PCGen coding is on a volunteer basis
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> if you mean for data, you bet we accept outside coders
      > <AlphaSEQ> they make data files (which is kind of coding)
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> if you're intersted in doing work for CMP, go here:
      > http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&
      > <http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&>
      > pid=13
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP is always happy to get more people - especially
      > anyone
      > good with data!
      > <AlphaSEQ> are they reimbursed for their work?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> of course
      > <AlphaSEQ> ok... that cuts off that line of thought then, heheh
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> a couple of people have actually said they didn't want to
      > be paid. they just liked to do the work.
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Mynex has stated on their boards that they still have
      > troubles getting data monkeys, even though they do compensate
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> there aren't too many people around like that ;)
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> and you did sent then back here right? :-)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think if we ever got the LST editors to work, it'd make
      > it a lot easier
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that'd be nice
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i know i mostly tell folks to not use them because
      > they're
      > rather buggy
      > <AlphaSEQ> then I would guess the lack of them is from the perception that
      > has grown up since pcgen stopped distributing content like SW d20
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah - but if we got them to work, it would make LST
      > work a
      > lot easier and I think do a lot to get more involved in it
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> alpha - maybe. I'm still hoping we can eventually get to
      > the point where we can get Lucas' approval.
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> they would need to be alot more robust than they
      > are now
      > for me to use them
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> AlphaSEQ, what do you see the perception as?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'd love to include SW d20 again
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> heck at this point any licensed set would be a
      > huge step
      > in that directionn
      > <AlphaSEQ> The perception, from my point of view, is basically the loss of
      > functionality
      > <AlphaSEQ> stuff that was there is gone, and only some of what was
      > there can
      > be obtained from CMP
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> so we need to talk to Mongoose saturday about
      > Babylon 5
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah, though the alternative was the loss of everything.
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think CMP has been able to cover everything other
      > than SW
      > that was lost.
      > <AlphaSEQ> so those that do play SW D20, FR, Eberron, etc... don't see
      > PCGen
      > as being a useful app
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> unless they can code the data themselves
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP has eberron
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> but I know what you mean
      > <AlphaSEQ> right, but most people (and I don't disagree with what
      > happened)
      > see it as "I got the application for free, and now I have to pay to
      > get what
      > I need"
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> right, I've been fighting that battle for a few years now
      > <AlphaSEQ> in some ways it feels like a "Bait and Switch" type of thing
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> it would be a bait and switch if it had been planned that
      > way, but I think I've made it pretty clear what all happened
      > <AlphaSEQ> you have to me, but that doesn't mean everyone sees it that way
      > or understands it that way...
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> In any event, I'm pleased that PCGen gets to continue to
      > exist and be free and add to what it offers for free
      > <AlphaSEQ> so am I
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'm also happy that CMP gets to produce closed data at a
      > very low price (compared to the amount of effort it takes to create the
      > data)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> this keeps Wotc happy and (I hope) our customers happy
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> it's a difficult tight-rope to walk, but we try to do our
      > best
      > <AlphaSEQ> I've been playing with PCGen since before the the 2.x -> 3.x
      > shakeup
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think PCGen has improved far beyond what it could do in
      > 2.x
      > <AlphaSEQ> but talking with others at my gaming store look at PCGen as
      > being
      > useless to them, heheh
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh yes, there has been many changes since the 2.x
      > days...and i started back in 1.4.x
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I sometimes wonder if Wotc will let us release the
      > data for
      > free if/when they announce 4e
      > <AlphaSEQ> if they go to 4e before a decade of 3.5e has gone by, then they
      > can kiss me good bye as a customer
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> The fact that they are now owned by Hasboro dictates more
      > to them then if they ran the show themselves
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> Alpha has a point, I think a lot of folks gave up on
      > PCGen when the closed content material was removed and have not been
      > back to
      > see the improvements
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> When did 3e come out? was it 2000?
      > <AlphaSEQ> yep
      > <AlphaSEQ> and 3.5 was less than 3 years later
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> just the other day I read someone comment on a forum
      > that PCGen couldn't do monster advancment properly
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> so 5 years so far.
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> don't know where that came from, I've never heard
      > it was
      > a problem
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> me neither
      > <AlphaSEQ> that might be another issue for PCGen
      > <AlphaSEQ> people either not understanding the rules or not bothering to
      > provide feedback
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> If Wotc does announce 4e, they'd better have a *good*
      > generator ready at launch time! I'd like to help write it :)
      > <AlphaSEQ> and a good conversion guide for all the campaign specific 3 and
      > 3.5 books
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> we'll be handing out lots of PCGen CDs at GenCon - maybe
      > that will help get some new people interested in helping out
      > <AlphaSEQ> that is part of what started to put me off of D&D
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> alpha - good point!
      > <AlphaSEQ> FR got caught by the rules conversion
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> though I wonder how much more like GURPS they can become
      > without calling it GURPS - with class levels.
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> lol Bryan
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> so, anything else from anyone out there?
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> nope
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> nothing here
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I thought we'd have more of an audience
      > <AlphaSEQ> nope. Just good luck at Gencon and hope it leads to more
      > recruits to your small, but loyal, monkey army
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> thanks :)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I take it you won't be there?
      > <AlphaSEQ> never gone to a Con
      > <AlphaSEQ> too expensive to get to them for me
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I've only ever been to GenCon - and only 5 of them!
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> where are you at Alpha?
      > * [CM]Zaister has joined #pcgen
      > * ChanServ sets mode: +o [CM]Zaister
      > <AlphaSEQ> SW region
      > <AlphaSEQ> Arizona
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I used to go to Dragon Con in atlanta all the time in
      > the '90s
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll probably go to AZ in march to see some baseball.
      > I'm a
      > big baseball fan :)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I went this year and it was great!
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> Too hot there in the summer
      > <AlphaSEQ> worse
      > <AlphaSEQ> it was muggy as well
      > * [AFK]Zaister has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> I heard it was especially bad this year
      > <AlphaSEQ> first time in 10 years, but we are in a drought
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> I gotta split guys, good talking with ya, see you
      > saturday merton
      > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh, and no meeting next week
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> right. see you there Eddy!
      > <[Content_SB]mosat> night
      > * [Content_SB]mosat has left #pcgen
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> Paul - do you post the log?
      > <[BD]mertonmonk> ok - I gotta run as well. cya all later!
      >
      > ===
      >
      > Paul W. King
      > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD
      > --
      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/2005
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
      > PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
      > PCGen's FAQ:
      > http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS
      > Release
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Release&w1=Release&w2=Material&c=2&s=27&.sig=yf4dgT2eCQTGLonp65a5WA>
      > Material
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Material&w1=Release&w2=Material&c=2&s=27&.sig=J5EF3iHfSqhWiJ2FHntvrA>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > * Visit your group "pcgen <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen>"
      > on the web.
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • merton_monk
      Problem is that someone then has to write the minutes... I nominate you for that task. :) -Bryan ... to have ... coding ... requests for ... simple but ...
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 3, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Problem is that someone then has to write the minutes... I nominate
        you for that task. :)

        -Bryan

        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Wimmer <kwimmer@r...> wrote:
        >
        > Would it be possible to have both the minutes and the log - I find the
        > minutes far more "immediately" useful.
        > A single email with minutes at the top would be great :)
        >
        > And then this back and forth between the log and minutes every so often
        > could stop :)
        >
        > The log just lets the people figure out how the minutes came to be, if
        > their really that interested in knowing.
        >
        > Kurt
        >
        >
        > Paul W. King wrote:
        >
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> and i now have 9:30 PM EST (GMT -5)
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Code, go
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> not much action on the code front, but we do seem
        to have
        > > more coders involved.
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> activity has picked up a bit, which is nice to see
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's cool
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> any thought of when 5.9.2 should come out?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> andrew wilson and Stefan Radermacher have been
        coding
        > > up a
        > > storm :)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think 5.9.2 can't come out soon enough (i.e. now
        > > would be
        > > nice) :)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> let everyone help make sure that all this coding has
        > > broken
        > > anything that's not obvious.
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> erm, make sure it *hasn't*....
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> *blush*
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> lol...i knew what you meant
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else Bryan?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> nope, that's it on coding
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Content, go
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> not much to report
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> it's been somewhat quite this week
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> did figure out a few things data wise
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's cool
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> what datasets are in the fire that you know of?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Epic and Arcana are getting the business right now
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> k
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> nope, unless we want to talk about code
        requests for
        > > data
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> sure
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> well I've got one I think would be fairly
        simple but
        > > would help data solve quite a few problems
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> [1250730] PLUSCOST calculations: Add PLUSTOTAL as
        > > a COST
        > > tag variable
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat>
        > >
        <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1250730&group_id=2

        > >
        <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1250730&group_id=2>
        > > 5576&atid=384722>
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> This is needed because the plus cost formula
        for Epic
        > > items is different (x10) from non-Epic magic items
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> We have had problems trying to manipulate the
        PLUSCOST
        > > formulas in the gameMode file
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Rather than request complex changes to the
        PLUSCOST
        > > gameMode tag we think we have hit on a simple solution
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> All we need is an additional hardcoded
        variable we can
        > > use in the COST and BONUS:ITEMCOST tags:
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> PLUSTOTAL, this would return the total number of
        > > pluses
        > > added by the PLUS: tag
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> with this in place we could move the formula out
        > > of the
        > > gameMode and into the data
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Because all plus costing enhancements require at
        > > least a
        > > +1 enhancement and all the enhancement EQMODs are mutually
        exclusive the
        > > cost formula could be applied there
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> For example, the +1 enhancement to Armor would
        include
        > > this:
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> +1 (Enhancement to Armor) PLUS:1
        COST:1000*PLUS*PLUS
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> With this the Epic plus costs would be simple
        and this
        > > would also solve some other issues like the plus cost of Shuriken
        > > (which is
        > > currently wrong)
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> best of all the existing code does not need to be
        > > removed or altered, we can simply comment out or remove the
        PLUSCOST tags
        > > from the gameMode files
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> hows that?
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> interesting
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> did you follow that Bryan?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> seems fairly straightforward, but BONUS tags usually
        > > have 2
        > > elements before the formula
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> like BONUS:COMBAT|AC|2
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> BONUS:ITEMCOST|what?|1000*PLUS*PLUS
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> or would it be BONUS:ITEM|COST|formula
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> BONUS:ITEMCOST|TYPE.Thing|1000*PLUS*PLUS
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> TYPE is the element you are looking for
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> it would stay the same syntax, we just need a
        VAR to
        > > return the number of pluses
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> it's been a long time since I've delved into that
        > > code, but
        > > I don't think this should be that big of a deal
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> we'd need to make sure that all item costs were
        > > scrutinized
        > > to make sure nothing is broken
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> since this obviously impacts a lot of items (anything
        > > magical!)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> this would be something for a coder who has
        worked in the
        > > equipment code before - a 2-3 day type effort just to be safe
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> sure would, but tranfering the formula to the
        data
        > > would
        > > be transparent to the user
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> right, but there's till the potential for breakage
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> the cost formula is currently in the code?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> maybe we can talk Devon into fixing it while we're at
        > > gencon :)
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> that would be nice
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> there is a cost formula, but I forget the
        details. this
        > > would be in addition to that
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> you just posted it
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> 1000*PLUS*PLUS
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> for armor
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I mean how all the BONUS tags work together for
        > > determining
        > > cost.
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Oh
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> there's more to it than just BONUS:ITEMCOST...
        there are
        > > actually a few steps to it
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> but I can't recall the exact steps without looking
        > > through
        > > the code
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I just remember that it was a bit convoluted...
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I have uncovered another issue related to pricing
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> care to hear it?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> sure ;)
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> it concerns specific items
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> they are constructed with EQMODs and the price
        > > difference is added to the COST tag
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> the bug is that if the item is resized the new
        cost is
        > > factored using the COST tag value
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> which represents the value of the magical
        > > enhancments as
        > > well as the cost of the base item
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> it is only the base item which should be
        refactored
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I have found a solution too
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> good, because my head is spinning! :)
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I've created an EQMOD with which you can add cost
        > > to the
        > > item, then the COST tag can hold only the cost of the base item
        and only
        > > that is refactored when it is resized
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> he, if that got you then how about this:
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> masterwork and magical EQMODs do not get
        refactored
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> but
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I believe base materials like Mithral and
        > > Adamantine do
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> so if you make a Large Armor out of Mithral it
        should
        > > cost twice as much as the same armor as for a mediium creature
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> but neither our data or CMPs data does this
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> how does it behave now?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> If you make colasal Full plate Mithral armor
        the full
        > > plate will cost 16 times as much but the Mithral EQMOD costs no
        > > different as
        > > medium sized full plate
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> unfortunately I have not found any explicite
        rules
        > > that
        > > say that
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Mithral items other than armor have their cost
        > > based on
        > > weight so that leaves me to believe that it should work this way
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> hm
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> but I have not found anything in the FAQ or
        anywhere
        > > else
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> you're probably right. maybe we can pin down
        someone at
        > > Wotc at GenCon to make it explicit
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> but what you're saying makes logical sense
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> that would be cool
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else Eddy?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I'm trying to make a list of all these nit picks
        > > we have
        > > uncovered this year
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> what day will you bet at GenCon? saturday? I'll
        make a
        > > point to go with you to the Wotc booth and see if we can get some
        answers
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> only that if we need to adjust these EQMODs
        for size I
        > > have a solution for that
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I'll be there saturday, as early as I can, I'm
        driving
        > > overnight
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> OK content status is done
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> early being before 10am?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> yah
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> at least by 10
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> ok, PL
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i still haven't heard from Necromancer Games,
        but that
        > > doesn't surprise me
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i'll email them again next week after GenCon
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> has any thought been given to finding a
        replacement for
        > > Beaver?
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> or ami back to being the PL SB?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> we seem to be running very short handed in the SB
        > > dept.
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> true...RL seems to have hit all of us pretty
        hard this
        > > summer
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> you, me, Reed, Paul G, Devon and Eric
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> and few volunteers are working up the ranks
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> code seems to be doing ok, but it seems like all the
        > > other
        > > teams are hurting
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I just got another code volunteer today - he
        wants to
        > > focus
        > > on GMGen type functionality
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> data people seem to be especially hard to come by
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> true, but Frank is a welcome addition
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> hope he doesn't get frustrated by the slow pace
        > > progress
        > > can take sometimes
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> this is something we'll need to discuss on
        saturday. if
        > > we're having trouble retaining data people, or what the issue is
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> any idea of Kar's comment about being back means
        > > he's back
        > > to work?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I didn't know Kar had said anything - when/where was
        > > that?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> on a tracker, and a post to the main list
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I knew he was back (as in NZ) a long time ago
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I was the only one who replied back to his post
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> cool. I assume he'd contact me or one of us if he
        > > wanted to
        > > jump back in the BoD
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> he's certainly welcomed back anytime he wants
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I don't get to read all the posts anymore - I
        wish I had
        > > the time to read them all like I used to
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> Getting ready for gencon this year is especially
        busy!
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll find his post and say hi :)
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that's understandable Bryan
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> well, that's all i had for PL
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> TM
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> because of the aforementioned RL, i haven't had
        a chance
        > > to look closely through the 1+ yr old Code Freqs
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i still want to do that, but its looking like
        not until
        > > after Labor Day, as i have 2 separate vacations coming up
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> one with my family, one with Jen's
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> when is labor day this year?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Sept 5
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> thanks Eddy, stepped away to get a Kleenex
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> on a kind of unrelated note, did we ever nail down
        > > the spec
        > > for 5.10?
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> yes, it was going to clean my toilet :D
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I know we had discussed it, but I don't recall
        any firm
        > > conclusion
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> well data has a list of datasets, including
        > > getting full
        > > support done for the xSRDs
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> and be compatible with your coffee grinder
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> ans I presented a list of features data would
        like to
        > > get code support for
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i think full support of the xSRDs is probably a
        good
        > > goal
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> we even got the community to prioritize it
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> have you trackered those requests Eddy?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think we need to make the spec prominently
        displayed on
        > > the SF page so everyone can see what we're shooting for
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> but I have not heard what the code team is
        > > committed to
        > > other than that they are working on the ability objetc first
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> and so Paul, or some other TM we can bribe/prod
        into the
        > > job, can go and prioritize all the trackers accordingly...
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I think they are all trackered
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> frugal made an attempt, and then it got delayed,
        right?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll have to talk to devon about what the current
        > > status of
        > > that project is.
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> if not it is because that exact appraouch on how
        > > to deal
        > > with the issues has not been worked out
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> it has a big impact on what data can be done as well
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> no, i believe Frugal was working on CDOM, not the
        > > Ability
        > > object
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> right
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> oh - that's right. I got them mixed up.
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> he wasn't able to start
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> ok, I'm still not sure where the ability object
        is code
        > > wise
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I haven't heard anything about it in a few weeks
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> ok, i'm done with TM, and we've already drifted
        into
        > > open
        > > discussion
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I do want to discuss a PCGen getogether
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> sounds like it will be lunch on saturday since Eddy
        > > will be
        > > there then
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> are we done with 5.10 spec scope?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> :-)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> we need Devon for the 5.10 discussion
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll corner him at gencon :)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think the CMP booth is 454 if anyone wants to come
        > > bug me
        > > and see our big inflatable monkeys :)
        > > <AlphaSEQ> scifi monkeys
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> alright, corner Devon at GenCon
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> what about scifi monkeys AlphaSEQ?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> all monkeys are scifi fans
        > > <AlphaSEQ> seen the scifi blurb where the guy blows up the dog like a
        > > balloon?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll post an announcement about the pcgen
        get-together on
        > > saturday
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> oh yeah - I've seen that commercial!
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> Scifi just went to a different cable package so I
        > > don't get
        > > it anymore :(
        > > <AlphaSEQ> so, instead of a dog, you've blown up some monkeys
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> not seen that commercial
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> but it sounds appropriate
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll probably end up having to blow up the monkey
        again
        > > this year...
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> anything else on the GenCon get-together?
        > > <AlphaSEQ> how many total monkeys are there working on the various
        > > subparts
        > > of pcgen?
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> hey, i helped last year
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> heh
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> good question AlphaSEQ
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I don't know, but only 4 can sit at any one time ;)
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> on the PL team, its just me
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> the OGL team is Paul G, Larry Plympton (whom i
        haven't
        > > seen in quite some time) and myself
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Docs: me, OS:Chuck pint
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> we need more members on the PL team! and the data
        > > team, and
        > > OGL, and... well, just about every team!
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Data: there are about five guys
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> trackers are me, Eddy, Papa, Ravagon and, i think,
        > > Andargor (there may be others who post occasionally...i can't recall
        > > everyone
        > > <AlphaSEQ> I wonder if part of the issue with Data is the fact that
        > > the most
        > > wanted/needed files aren't OGL
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> there are alot of non-active monkeys out there
        > > <AlphaSEQ> e.g. FR, Eberron, WotC addons, etc...
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> the data team used to be big
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> could be
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i think the biggest contributing data monkeys
        are, in no
        > > particular order:
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> maybe thats the reason for the decline
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Tir, Barak, Doug, Eddy, myself and Kar
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP doesn't have many data monkeys either, so I
        don't
        > > think
        > > it's an OGL-or-not type issue
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> there are more, but i think that group contains
        the ones
        > > who've done the most
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I think it takes a particular person
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh, forgot Mynex
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> one who like the logic challange of it
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> yeah, some stuff is *quite* convoluted
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah, it's definitely a skill.
        > > <AlphaSEQ> does CMP accept outside coders and if so, how do they
        reimburse
        > > them since they are a for-profit company?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I've always been amazed at what you data monkeys
        can get
        > > to work considering what you have to work with!
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> It's may main hobby right now, spend much more
        time in
        > > the data and the docs than I do actually gaming
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> outside coders for what? nothing more is being
        done on
        > > ETools, and PCGen coding is on a volunteer basis
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> if you mean for data, you bet we accept outside
        coders
        > > <AlphaSEQ> they make data files (which is kind of coding)
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> if you're intersted in doing work for CMP, go here:
        > >
        http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&

        > >
        <http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&>
        > > pid=13
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP is always happy to get more people - especially
        > > anyone
        > > good with data!
        > > <AlphaSEQ> are they reimbursed for their work?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> of course
        > > <AlphaSEQ> ok... that cuts off that line of thought then, heheh
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> a couple of people have actually said they didn't
        want to
        > > be paid. they just liked to do the work.
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> Mynex has stated on their boards that they still
        have
        > > troubles getting data monkeys, even though they do compensate
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> there aren't too many people around like that ;)
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> and you did sent then back here right? :-)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think if we ever got the LST editors to work,
        it'd make
        > > it a lot easier
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> that'd be nice
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> i know i mostly tell folks to not use them because
        > > they're
        > > rather buggy
        > > <AlphaSEQ> then I would guess the lack of them is from the
        perception that
        > > has grown up since pcgen stopped distributing content like SW d20
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah - but if we got them to work, it would make LST
        > > work a
        > > lot easier and I think do a lot to get more involved in it
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> alpha - maybe. I'm still hoping we can eventually
        get to
        > > the point where we can get Lucas' approval.
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> they would need to be alot more robust than they
        > > are now
        > > for me to use them
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> AlphaSEQ, what do you see the perception as?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'd love to include SW d20 again
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> heck at this point any licensed set would be a
        > > huge step
        > > in that directionn
        > > <AlphaSEQ> The perception, from my point of view, is basically the
        loss of
        > > functionality
        > > <AlphaSEQ> stuff that was there is gone, and only some of what was
        > > there can
        > > be obtained from CMP
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> so we need to talk to Mongoose saturday about
        > > Babylon 5
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> yeah, though the alternative was the loss of
        everything.
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think CMP has been able to cover everything other
        > > than SW
        > > that was lost.
        > > <AlphaSEQ> so those that do play SW D20, FR, Eberron, etc... don't
        see
        > > PCGen
        > > as being a useful app
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> unless they can code the data themselves
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> CMP has eberron
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> but I know what you mean
        > > <AlphaSEQ> right, but most people (and I don't disagree with what
        > > happened)
        > > see it as "I got the application for free, and now I have to pay to
        > > get what
        > > I need"
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> right, I've been fighting that battle for a few
        years now
        > > <AlphaSEQ> in some ways it feels like a "Bait and Switch" type of
        thing
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> it would be a bait and switch if it had been
        planned that
        > > way, but I think I've made it pretty clear what all happened
        > > <AlphaSEQ> you have to me, but that doesn't mean everyone sees it
        that way
        > > or understands it that way...
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> In any event, I'm pleased that PCGen gets to
        continue to
        > > exist and be free and add to what it offers for free
        > > <AlphaSEQ> so am I
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'm also happy that CMP gets to produce closed
        data at a
        > > very low price (compared to the amount of effort it takes to
        create the
        > > data)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> this keeps Wotc happy and (I hope) our customers
        happy
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> it's a difficult tight-rope to walk, but we try
        to do our
        > > best
        > > <AlphaSEQ> I've been playing with PCGen since before the the 2.x
        -> 3.x
        > > shakeup
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I think PCGen has improved far beyond what it
        could do in
        > > 2.x
        > > <AlphaSEQ> but talking with others at my gaming store look at
        PCGen as
        > > being
        > > useless to them, heheh
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh yes, there has been many changes since the 2.x
        > > days...and i started back in 1.4.x
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I sometimes wonder if Wotc will let us release the
        > > data for
        > > free if/when they announce 4e
        > > <AlphaSEQ> if they go to 4e before a decade of 3.5e has gone by,
        then they
        > > can kiss me good bye as a customer
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> The fact that they are now owned by Hasboro
        dictates more
        > > to them then if they ran the show themselves
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> Alpha has a point, I think a lot of folks gave
        up on
        > > PCGen when the closed content material was removed and have not been
        > > back to
        > > see the improvements
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> When did 3e come out? was it 2000?
        > > <AlphaSEQ> yep
        > > <AlphaSEQ> and 3.5 was less than 3 years later
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> just the other day I read someone comment on a
        forum
        > > that PCGen couldn't do monster advancment properly
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> so 5 years so far.
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> don't know where that came from, I've never heard
        > > it was
        > > a problem
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> me neither
        > > <AlphaSEQ> that might be another issue for PCGen
        > > <AlphaSEQ> people either not understanding the rules or not
        bothering to
        > > provide feedback
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> If Wotc does announce 4e, they'd better have a *good*
        > > generator ready at launch time! I'd like to help write it :)
        > > <AlphaSEQ> and a good conversion guide for all the campaign
        specific 3 and
        > > 3.5 books
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> we'll be handing out lots of PCGen CDs at GenCon
        - maybe
        > > that will help get some new people interested in helping out
        > > <AlphaSEQ> that is part of what started to put me off of D&D
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> alpha - good point!
        > > <AlphaSEQ> FR got caught by the rules conversion
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> though I wonder how much more like GURPS they can
        become
        > > without calling it GURPS - with class levels.
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> lol Bryan
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> so, anything else from anyone out there?
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> nope
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> nothing here
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I thought we'd have more of an audience
        > > <AlphaSEQ> nope. Just good luck at Gencon and hope it leads to more
        > > recruits to your small, but loyal, monkey army
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> thanks :)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I take it you won't be there?
        > > <AlphaSEQ> never gone to a Con
        > > <AlphaSEQ> too expensive to get to them for me
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I've only ever been to GenCon - and only 5 of them!
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> where are you at Alpha?
        > > * [CM]Zaister has joined #pcgen
        > > * ChanServ sets mode: +o [CM]Zaister
        > > <AlphaSEQ> SW region
        > > <AlphaSEQ> Arizona
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I used to go to Dragon Con in atlanta all the
        time in
        > > the '90s
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I'll probably go to AZ in march to see some
        baseball.
        > > I'm a
        > > big baseball fan :)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I went this year and it was great!
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> Too hot there in the summer
        > > <AlphaSEQ> worse
        > > <AlphaSEQ> it was muggy as well
        > > * [AFK]Zaister has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> I heard it was especially bad this year
        > > <AlphaSEQ> first time in 10 years, but we are in a drought
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> I gotta split guys, good talking with ya, see you
        > > saturday merton
        > > <[TM-SB]kingpaul> oh, and no meeting next week
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> right. see you there Eddy!
        > > <[Content_SB]mosat> night
        > > * [Content_SB]mosat has left #pcgen
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> Paul - do you post the log?
        > > <[BD]mertonmonk> ok - I gotta run as well. cya all later!
        > >
        > > ===
        > >
        > > Paul W. King
        > > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD
        > > --
        > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
        > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
        > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date:
        8/14/2005
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        > > PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
        > > PCGen's FAQ:
        > > http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > SPONSORED LINKS
        > > Release
        > >
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Release&w1=Release&w2=Material&c=2&s=27&.sig=yf4dgT2eCQTGLonp65a5WA>

        > > Material
        > >
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Material&w1=Release&w2=Material&c=2&s=27&.sig=J5EF3iHfSqhWiJ2FHntvrA>

        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > >
        > > * Visit your group "pcgen <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen>"
        > > on the web.
        > >
        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        > >
        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paul W. King
        Y know, I can t win for trying. First, no log because its to long, just give the minutes. Then, no minutes, I want to see the nitty-gritty of the meeting, log
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 4, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Y'know, I can't win for trying. First, no log because its to long, just give the minutes. Then, no minutes, I want to see the
          nitty-gritty of the meeting, log please. Now a request for both. *throws hands up in the air* I like Bryan's suggestion, *you* can
          do the minutes. :D

          Paul W. King
          TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD

          -----Original Message-----
          From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Wimmer
          Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:44 PM
          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [pcgen] BoD log - 8/14/05

          Would it be possible to have both the minutes and the log
          --
          No virus found in this outgoing message.
          Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/89 - Release Date: 9/2/2005
        • Kurt Wimmer
          I don t read the log or attend BoD meetings :)
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 5, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            I don't read the log or attend BoD meetings :)


            Paul W. King wrote:

            >Y'know, I can't win for trying. First, no log because its to long, just give the minutes. Then, no minutes, I want to see the
            >nitty-gritty of the meeting, log please. Now a request for both. *throws hands up in the air* I like Bryan's suggestion, *you* can
            >do the minutes. :D
            >
            >Paul W. King
            >TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: pcgen@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pcgen@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Wimmer
            >Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:44 PM
            >To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [pcgen] BoD log - 8/14/05
            >
            >Would it be possible to have both the minutes and the log
            >--
            >No virus found in this outgoing message.
            >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
            >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/89 - Release Date: 9/2/2005
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            >PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
            >PCGen's FAQ:
            >http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.