Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [5.7.13][autobuild] Spells per Day, yet again

Expand Messages
  • andargor
    ... RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least one more major
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, thoron-tir-gwaith@l... wrote:

      > At that point, I suggested we scale down and get Psionics into our
      RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after
      that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least
      one more major twist). Mostly cause I knew the spec and code
      development wouldn't be that great, and efforts there could be on
      squashing irritating issues like the 3.5 Ranger. Solidify/fix what we
      have before adding new stuff. (Yes there has to be a balance,
      something I've learned over the last 18 months, but when dealing with
      CORE, I think that still wholly applies.)
      >

      Yes, I've always known that it was a post 5.8 priority.

      > > I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).
      >
      > I'm not sorry. The Ranger's major issue was that lots of people
      wanted what was most important to them about it to work correctly, and
      not caring about the rest of the users. I'd close one bug, and get
      reports of how my fix 'broke' it for someone else Some of the fixes
      were mutually exclusive using the code at the time. THAT sooo irked
      me; to the point that I designed what the ideal should be, and pushing
      to get it implemented (code changes), because anything else was going
      to have someone complaining. Thank the Goddess that I haven't had
      people complaining about the current implementation. It tells me I
      did it Right. If people start seeing something wrong with how we have
      it now, we all might as well hang up our hats and go home.
      >

      Yes, I remember that saga, and I know you did your best with what you
      had. :)

      > Both of those mean Epic implementation is a BIG/complex undertaking.
      Much more than doing a new campaign setting type source (and those
      are much more than a typical supplement). I know at least Barak and I
      disagree on this, and maybe the Board as well, but I'll say it here,
      because it is _my_ opinion: I'd rather spend the time and get a source
      designed properly from the ground up, than get a half-built thing out
      there and let the users cry when it doesn't work right before we
      consider getting things right. Too many times we've relied on users
      for major implementation issues and called them bugs, when in my mind,
      they shouldn't have even been put out in the first place. It says
      something about us as a publisher (and we _are_ an OGL publisher.)
      >
      > I don't like doing MASSIVE work arounds that start needing hundreds
      of objects to implement, or clunky interface requirements (like
      current Dawnforge race advancement implementation). Unless you can
      hit 99.5%+ of all germs with that implementation, it is going to be
      more of a headache for the maintainers/later editors to keep things up
      and running, and even more complicated to get working with new code as
      it appears, since at that point, you have to try and figure out a way
      to do it properly, while not breaking existing users characters. It
      gets overly complicated quickly.
      >
      > > I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
      > > to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
      > > handled are required.
      >
      > As mentioned above, we've known that for a while. We just have this
      great script/data monkey doing prelim work for us now. :p
      >
      > Tir Gwaith
      > LST Chimp

      I generally agree with the rest of your points. At least we have a
      starting point for Epic.

      Andargor
    • taluroniscandar
      ... that is ... Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source that does that.
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jones <soulcatcher@e...> wrote:
        > andargor wrote:
        >
        > >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
        > >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
        > >higher that the character can cast. So:
        > >
        > >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
        > >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
        > >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
        > >be taken into account for those slots
        > >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
        > >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
        > >
        > >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
        > >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
        > >and consistent spells per day approach?
        > >

        > >
        > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
        that is
        > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
        > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
        >
        Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
        that does that.
      • Chris
        ... we ... I *think* I know where Devon is coming from. The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don t go on infinitely... Spells/spell levels are given up to
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          > > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
          > that is
          > > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far
          we
          > > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
          > >
          > Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
          > that does that.

          I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.

          The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

          Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
          this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
          level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
          have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

          The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
          we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
          what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

          After that there are Epic spells, which are a completely different
          animal and will need a lot of help to work in PCGen. :p

          Barak
        • Frugal
          ... Yeah they do ;) EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level) Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
            > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
            >
            > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

            Yeah they do ;)

            EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
            "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
            slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
            directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above 25th
            level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

            > Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
            > this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
            > level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
            > have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

            So only epic characters can cast high levels spells with meta magic.
            Sounds perfectly reasonable.

            > The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
            > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
            > what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

            Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
            prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

            --
            regards,
            Frugal
          • Chris
            ... I stand corrected. Can you tell I don t play Epic? :) Hmm, you d have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th level spell. Seems like a
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              > On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
              > > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
              > >
              > > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
              >
              > Yeah they do ;)
              >
              > EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
              > "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
              > slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
              > directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
              > 25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

              I stand corrected.

              Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)

              Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
              level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
              suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p

              > > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is

              > Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
              > prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

              Doh... multiple multi-magics... didn't think about that. (I don't
              usually play spellcasters either, yeah, that's it!).

              Barak
            • Devon Jones
              ... I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as the first
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                taluroniscandar wrote:

                >>We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                >>
                >>
                >that is
                >
                >
                >>not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                >>have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                >that does that.
                >
                >
                I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was
                non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as
                the first 20 levels.

                my bad.

                Devon
              • Barak
                ... That s exactly whaat s being asked for. :) See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p Barak
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Devon Jones [mailto:soulcatcher@...]
                  > I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being
                  > asked for was
                  > non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the
                  > same path as
                  > the first 20 levels.

                  That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)

                  See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p

                  Barak
                • tir_gwaith
                  ... Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that is already done
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)
                    >
                    > See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p
                    >
                    > Barak

                    Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as
                    a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that
                    is already done in the system GameMode files somewhere. If not, then
                    that is another hardcode we'll have to pull out.)

                    From what I read, he was discussing new automatic slots past 20th
                    level, while Frugal was mentioning the Bonus spells, which is
                    strictly dependent on Ability score and ability to cast a spell
                    level. Your comment on the feat per spell level is correct - you can
                    get up to 25th level spell slots by spending 16 epic feats.

                    Tir Gwaith
                    LST Chimp
                  • Frugal
                    ... especially when you can spend 9 feats to take Automatic Quicken spell , auto Silent Spell and Auto Still Spell 3 times and have every single spell you
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Chris wrote:

                      >>On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                      >>>
                      >>>The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>Yeah they do ;)
                      >>
                      >>EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                      >>"Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                      >>slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                      >>directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
                      >>25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >I stand corrected.
                      >
                      >Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)
                      >
                      >Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
                      >level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
                      >suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p
                      >
                      >
                      especially when you can spend 9 feats to take "Automatic Quicken spell",
                      "auto Silent Spell" and "Auto Still Spell" 3 times and have every single
                      spell you cast as quickened stilled and silent...

                      regards
                      Frugal
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.