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Re: [pcgen] Re: [5.7.13][autobuild] Spells per Day, yet again

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  • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
    ... Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not caster level. Tir Gwaith LST Chimp
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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      > Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
      > spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.

      Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not caster level.

      Tir Gwaith
      LST Chimp
    • tir_gwaith
      There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won t do anything unless there is an open slot available to apply to. Andargor, you ll need an actual CAST Tag with 11
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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        There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won't do anything unless there
        is an open slot available to apply to.

        Andargor, you'll need an actual CAST Tag with 11 entries to open up
        the BONUS:SPELLCAST tag at LEVEL=10. Without even a 0 on the 10th
        level slot means that the class level can't cast that level at all,
        and any BONUSes to that won't work.

        Tir Gwaith
        LST Chimp

        > Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not
        caster level.
        >
      • andargor
        ... But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I m talking about 10th level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level higher that the
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "tir_gwaith" <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:
          >
          > There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won't do anything unless there
          > is an open slot available to apply to.
          >
          > Andargor, you'll need an actual CAST Tag with 11 entries to open up
          > the BONUS:SPELLCAST tag at LEVEL=10. Without even a 0 on the 10th
          > level slot means that the class level can't cast that level at all,
          > and any BONUSes to that won't work.
          >
          > Tir Gwaith
          > LST Chimp
          >
          > > Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not
          > caster level.
          > >

          But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
          level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
          higher that the character can cast. So:

          - MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
          level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
          - Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
          be taken into account for those slots
          - They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
          the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.

          I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
          look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
          and consistent spells per day approach?

          Andargor
        • Éric Beaudoin
          ... My guess is that is would need some new code FREQ. This would make it a post 5.8 functionnality. ... Éric Space Monkey Beaudoin Founding Member of the
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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            At 11:43 2005.01.02, andargor wrote:
            >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
            >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
            >higher that the character can cast. So:
            >
            >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
            >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
            >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
            >be taken into account for those slots
            >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
            >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
            >
            >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
            >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
            >and consistent spells per day approach?
            >
            >Andargor

            My guess is that is would need some new code FREQ. This would make it a post 5.8 functionnality.


            -----------------------------------------------------------
            Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
            Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
            Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
            >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
            >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
            <mailto:beaudoer@...>
          • Barak
            ... Where do you see that? The table in the PHB oly goes to 9th level, and there is no extension or mention in the DMG (so I would presume it is the same in
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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              ---Original Message-----
              > From: andargor [mailto:andargor@...]

              > - Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score
              > need to be taken into account for those slots

              Where do you see that? The table in the PHB oly goes to 9th level, and
              there is no extension or mention in the DMG (so I would presume it is the
              same in the R/SRD).

              In fact, the DMG says "Howwever, a character's spells per day do not
              increase after 20th level."

              As a matter of fact, 10th and greater are Epic spells and, IIRC, subject to
              other criteria on how often they can be cast, not the normal spellcasting
              rules. (Or did that change in 3.5???)

              Barak
            • Paul W. King
              Not quite. EpicFeats.rtf EPIC SPELLCASTING [EPIC] Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                Not quite.

                EpicFeats.rtf
                EPIC SPELLCASTING [EPIC]
                Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to
                cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion)
                24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks,
                Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.
                Benefit: The character may develop and cast epic spells. If the character
                is an arcane spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic spells per day
                equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If the
                character is a divine spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic
                spells per day equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (religion) or
                Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.
                Special: If the character meets more than one set of prerequisites, the
                limit on the number of spells he or she may cast per day is cumulative.

                IMPROVED SPELL CAPACITY [EPIC]
                Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at
                least one spellcasting class.
                Benefit: When the character selects this feat, he or she gains one spell
                slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level
                spell the character can already cast in a particular class. The character
                must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to
                cast any spell stored in this slot. If the character has a high enough
                ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, he
                or she also gains the bonus spells for this spell level. The character must
                use the spell slot as a member of the class in which he or she can already
                cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.
                Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times.


                DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf
                DIVINE SPELLCASTING
                Prerequisites: Spellcaster level 20th.
                Benefit: The deity can cast spells whose effective level is above 9th. The
                number of spells per day the deity can cast of each spell level above 9th
                depends on the deity’s key ability score for spell-casting classes in which
                the deity has achieved 20th level, as shown on Table: Divine Spellcasting.
                The numbers on that table represent one spell per day at each spell level
                above 9th in which it receives bonus spells from its key ability score, plus
                bonus spells based on the key ability score. The deity can use these slots
                for spells prepared or cast with a metamagic feat, or for lower-level
                spells.
                If the deity has achieved 20th level in a spellcasting class with fewer than
                nine levels of spells (such as bard, paladin, or ranger), the deity can also
                cast one spell per day of each level between the maximum normal spell level
                and 9th, plus appropriate bonus spells of each level based on the deity’s
                key ability score. These spells are not shown on the table.
                The deity also doesn’t incur attacks of opportunity for casting spells when
                threatened.
                In addition, the deity receives the benefit of the Spell Focus feat on any
                spell it casts.


                So, Epic spells are cast via the Epic Spellcasting feat. To cast 10th and
                higher level spells, you need either Improved Spell Capacity (if mortal) or
                Divine Spellcasting (if divine).

                Paul W. King
                TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Barak [mailto:barak@...]
                Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:15 PM
                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [pcgen] Re: [5.7.13][autobuild] Spells per Day, yet again

                As a matter of fact, 10th and greater are Epic spells and, IIRC, subject to
                other criteria on how often they can be cast, not the normal spellcasting
                rules. (Or did that change in 3.5???)
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              • Devon Jones
                ... We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff that is not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we have avoided
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                  andargor wrote:

                  >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                  >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                  >higher that the character can cast. So:
                  >
                  >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                  >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                  >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                  >be taken into account for those slots
                  >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                  >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
                  >
                  >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                  >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                  >and consistent spells per day approach?
                  >
                  >Andargor
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff that is
                  not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                  have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.

                  Devon
                • Devon Jones
                  ... Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and as such any rules would be house rules. I m not certain developing an alternative
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                    taluroniscandar wrote:

                    >Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                    >spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                    >
                    >
                    Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and
                    as such any rules would be house rules.
                    I'm not certain developing an alternative set of rules to the epic rules
                    is really part of pcgen's mission.

                    I have no problem developing code to let people create infinite classes
                    (classes that grant certain thaings at known intervals, and this can
                    scale intinitely) - but I don't think this is something we should be
                    aiming to support directly in the rsrd - cause doing so would actually
                    mean our RSRD is broken.
                    Devon
                  • andargor
                    ... rules ... Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I m not asking for new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has provisions
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jones <soulcatcher@e...> wrote:
                      > taluroniscandar wrote:
                      >
                      > >Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                      > >spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and
                      > as such any rules would be house rules.
                      > I'm not certain developing an alternative set of rules to the epic
                      rules
                      > is really part of pcgen's mission.
                      >
                      > I have no problem developing code to let people create infinite classes
                      > (classes that grant certain thaings at known intervals, and this can
                      > scale intinitely) - but I don't think this is something we should be
                      > aiming to support directly in the rsrd - cause doing so would actually
                      > mean our RSRD is broken.
                      > Devon

                      Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I'm not asking for
                      new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has
                      provisions for infinite spell levels (yes, the epic rules).

                      So my previous requests will have to be implemented if you wish to
                      adhere to the RSRD and the epic rules. And the CAST comment is because
                      the solution that was proposed is uncomfortable at best.

                      I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).

                      I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                      to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                      handled are required.

                      Andargor
                    • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                      ... We currently don t support Epic portion of the RSRD, and yes, I knew there would need to be some significant code changes needed for it back when we were
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                        > Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I'm not asking for
                        > new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has
                        > provisions for infinite spell levels (yes, the epic rules).

                        We currently don't support Epic portion of the RSRD, and yes, I knew there would need to be some significant code changes needed for it back when we were planning, and knew it would take some work to A) figure out what was needed B) develop specs for it C) implement the specs D) bug correct for stuff we didn't see, or interaction issues.

                        At that point, I suggested we scale down and get Psionics into our RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least one more major twist). Mostly cause I knew the spec and code development wouldn't be that great, and efforts there could be on squashing irritating issues like the 3.5 Ranger. Solidify/fix what we have before adding new stuff. (Yes there has to be a balance, something I've learned over the last 18 months, but when dealing with CORE, I think that still wholly applies.)

                        > So my previous requests will have to be implemented if you wish to
                        > adhere to the RSRD and the epic rules. And the CAST comment is because
                        > the solution that was proposed is uncomfortable at best.

                        I didn't say that was the solution. I was stating stuff as it stands NOW, with current code. Spellcasting in general with PCGen is a bit, um, archaic/backward/narrowly? defined (fill in the blank.) PITA to get anything away from standard 3.0 casting types, and even then, it isn't always handled right (PRExxx casting types work off of 'spell type', not caster type).

                        > I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).

                        I'm not sorry. The Ranger's major issue was that lots of people wanted what was most important to them about it to work correctly, and not caring about the rest of the users. I'd close one bug, and get reports of how my fix 'broke' it for someone else Some of the fixes were mutually exclusive using the code at the time. THAT sooo irked me; to the point that I designed what the ideal should be, and pushing to get it implemented (code changes), because anything else was going to have someone complaining. Thank the Goddess that I haven't had people complaining about the current implementation. It tells me I did it Right. If people start seeing something wrong with how we have it now, we all might as well hang up our hats and go home.

                        On Epic, I hope we don't go including it with lots of data and work-arounds. We've known two things for a long time: 1) spellcasting needs a good massage to get it more flexible. It not only can't handle Epic stuff right, but also a whole slew of popular variants out there. 2) PCGen code has a lot of assumptions around 20 levels. That means things past level 20 get wonky.

                        Both of those mean Epic implementation is a BIG/complex undertaking. Much more than doing a new campaign setting type source (and those are much more than a typical supplement). I know at least Barak and I disagree on this, and maybe the Board as well, but I'll say it here, because it is _my_ opinion: I'd rather spend the time and get a source designed properly from the ground up, than get a half-built thing out there and let the users cry when it doesn't work right before we consider getting things right. Too many times we've relied on users for major implementation issues and called them bugs, when in my mind, they shouldn't have even been put out in the first place. It says something about us as a publisher (and we _are_ an OGL publisher.)

                        I don't like doing MASSIVE work arounds that start needing hundreds of objects to implement, or clunky interface requirements (like current Dawnforge race advancement implementation). Unless you can hit 99.5%+ of all germs with that implementation, it is going to be more of a headache for the maintainers/later editors to keep things up and running, and even more complicated to get working with new code as it appears, since at that point, you have to try and figure out a way to do it properly, while not breaking existing users characters. It gets overly complicated quickly.

                        > I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                        > to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                        > handled are required.

                        As mentioned above, we've known that for a while. We just have this great script/data monkey doing prelim work for us now. :p

                        Tir Gwaith
                        LST Chimp
                      • andargor
                        ... RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least one more major
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, thoron-tir-gwaith@l... wrote:

                          > At that point, I suggested we scale down and get Psionics into our
                          RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after
                          that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least
                          one more major twist). Mostly cause I knew the spec and code
                          development wouldn't be that great, and efforts there could be on
                          squashing irritating issues like the 3.5 Ranger. Solidify/fix what we
                          have before adding new stuff. (Yes there has to be a balance,
                          something I've learned over the last 18 months, but when dealing with
                          CORE, I think that still wholly applies.)
                          >

                          Yes, I've always known that it was a post 5.8 priority.

                          > > I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).
                          >
                          > I'm not sorry. The Ranger's major issue was that lots of people
                          wanted what was most important to them about it to work correctly, and
                          not caring about the rest of the users. I'd close one bug, and get
                          reports of how my fix 'broke' it for someone else Some of the fixes
                          were mutually exclusive using the code at the time. THAT sooo irked
                          me; to the point that I designed what the ideal should be, and pushing
                          to get it implemented (code changes), because anything else was going
                          to have someone complaining. Thank the Goddess that I haven't had
                          people complaining about the current implementation. It tells me I
                          did it Right. If people start seeing something wrong with how we have
                          it now, we all might as well hang up our hats and go home.
                          >

                          Yes, I remember that saga, and I know you did your best with what you
                          had. :)

                          > Both of those mean Epic implementation is a BIG/complex undertaking.
                          Much more than doing a new campaign setting type source (and those
                          are much more than a typical supplement). I know at least Barak and I
                          disagree on this, and maybe the Board as well, but I'll say it here,
                          because it is _my_ opinion: I'd rather spend the time and get a source
                          designed properly from the ground up, than get a half-built thing out
                          there and let the users cry when it doesn't work right before we
                          consider getting things right. Too many times we've relied on users
                          for major implementation issues and called them bugs, when in my mind,
                          they shouldn't have even been put out in the first place. It says
                          something about us as a publisher (and we _are_ an OGL publisher.)
                          >
                          > I don't like doing MASSIVE work arounds that start needing hundreds
                          of objects to implement, or clunky interface requirements (like
                          current Dawnforge race advancement implementation). Unless you can
                          hit 99.5%+ of all germs with that implementation, it is going to be
                          more of a headache for the maintainers/later editors to keep things up
                          and running, and even more complicated to get working with new code as
                          it appears, since at that point, you have to try and figure out a way
                          to do it properly, while not breaking existing users characters. It
                          gets overly complicated quickly.
                          >
                          > > I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                          > > to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                          > > handled are required.
                          >
                          > As mentioned above, we've known that for a while. We just have this
                          great script/data monkey doing prelim work for us now. :p
                          >
                          > Tir Gwaith
                          > LST Chimp

                          I generally agree with the rest of your points. At least we have a
                          starting point for Epic.

                          Andargor
                        • taluroniscandar
                          ... that is ... Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source that does that.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jones <soulcatcher@e...> wrote:
                            > andargor wrote:
                            >
                            > >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                            > >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                            > >higher that the character can cast. So:
                            > >
                            > >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                            > >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                            > >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                            > >be taken into account for those slots
                            > >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                            > >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
                            > >
                            > >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                            > >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                            > >and consistent spells per day approach?
                            > >

                            > >
                            > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                            that is
                            > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                            > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                            >
                            Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                            that does that.
                          • Chris
                            ... we ... I *think* I know where Devon is coming from. The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don t go on infinitely... Spells/spell levels are given up to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                              > > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                              > that is
                              > > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far
                              we
                              > > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                              > >
                              > Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                              > that does that.

                              I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.

                              The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

                              Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
                              this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
                              level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
                              have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

                              The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
                              we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
                              what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

                              After that there are Epic spells, which are a completely different
                              animal and will need a lot of help to work in PCGen. :p

                              Barak
                            • Frugal
                              ... Yeah they do ;) EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level) Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                >
                                > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

                                Yeah they do ;)

                                EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above 25th
                                level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

                                > Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
                                > this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
                                > level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
                                > have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

                                So only epic characters can cast high levels spells with meta magic.
                                Sounds perfectly reasonable.

                                > The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
                                > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
                                > what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

                                Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
                                prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

                                --
                                regards,
                                Frugal
                              • Chris
                                ... I stand corrected. Can you tell I don t play Epic? :) Hmm, you d have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th level spell. Seems like a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                  > On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                  > > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                  > >
                                  > > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
                                  >
                                  > Yeah they do ;)
                                  >
                                  > EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                  > "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                  > slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                  > directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
                                  > 25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

                                  I stand corrected.

                                  Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)

                                  Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
                                  level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
                                  suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p

                                  > > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is

                                  > Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
                                  > prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

                                  Doh... multiple multi-magics... didn't think about that. (I don't
                                  usually play spellcasters either, yeah, that's it!).

                                  Barak
                                • Devon Jones
                                  ... I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as the first
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                    taluroniscandar wrote:

                                    >>We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >that is
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                                    >>have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                                    >that does that.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was
                                    non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as
                                    the first 20 levels.

                                    my bad.

                                    Devon
                                  • Barak
                                    ... That s exactly whaat s being asked for. :) See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p Barak
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Devon Jones [mailto:soulcatcher@...]
                                      > I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being
                                      > asked for was
                                      > non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the
                                      > same path as
                                      > the first 20 levels.

                                      That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)

                                      See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p

                                      Barak
                                    • tir_gwaith
                                      ... Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that is already done
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                        > That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)
                                        >
                                        > See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p
                                        >
                                        > Barak

                                        Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as
                                        a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that
                                        is already done in the system GameMode files somewhere. If not, then
                                        that is another hardcode we'll have to pull out.)

                                        From what I read, he was discussing new automatic slots past 20th
                                        level, while Frugal was mentioning the Bonus spells, which is
                                        strictly dependent on Ability score and ability to cast a spell
                                        level. Your comment on the feat per spell level is correct - you can
                                        get up to 25th level spell slots by spending 16 epic feats.

                                        Tir Gwaith
                                        LST Chimp
                                      • Frugal
                                        ... especially when you can spend 9 feats to take Automatic Quicken spell , auto Silent Spell and Auto Still Spell 3 times and have every single spell you
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                          Chris wrote:

                                          >>On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>>I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                          >>>
                                          >>>The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>Yeah they do ;)
                                          >>
                                          >>EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                          >>"Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                          >>slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                          >>directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
                                          >>25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >I stand corrected.
                                          >
                                          >Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)
                                          >
                                          >Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
                                          >level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
                                          >suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p
                                          >
                                          >
                                          especially when you can spend 9 feats to take "Automatic Quicken spell",
                                          "auto Silent Spell" and "Auto Still Spell" 3 times and have every single
                                          spell you cast as quickened stilled and silent...

                                          regards
                                          Frugal
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