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Re: [5.7.13][autobuild] Spells per Day, yet again

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  • andargor
    ... PCGen ... per day ... appears ... MAXLEVEL ... Part IV: bonus spells due to a high spellcasting ability score do not get added to spells 9th level.
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello and Happy New Year!
      > > >
      > > > Yep, me again. Spells per day, our favorite topic.
      > > >
      > > > Firstly, spells per day display properly for characters <= 20 in
      PCGen
      > > > itself. However, they are all zero on the outputsheet. I'm using
      > > > csheet_fantasy_std_blackandwhite.xslt.
      > > >
      > > > Secondly, spellcasters >= lvl 21 no longer display zero spells
      per day
      > > > in PCGen, which is a Good Thing(tm). The same problem however
      appears
      > > > on the outputsheets, where spells per day are zeroed out.
      > > >
      > > > Further, adding a feat like Improved Spell Capacity does not display
      > > > level 10+ spells in PCGen or on the outputsheet. Lastly, the
      MAXLEVEL
      > > > variable does not seem to take into account things like
      > > > BONUS:SPELLCAST|CLASS=Wizard;LEVEL=10|1 (notice level 10), which
      > > > should increment MAXLEVEL to 10.
      > > >
      > > > That's all for now, taa-ta!
      > > >
      > > > Andargor
      > >
      > > One additional bit of info: a CAST line with level 10+ spells per day
      > > displays fine in PCGen (yay!), but exporting to PDF using the same
      > > outputsheet above gives an Index Out of Bounds error.
      > >
      > > Andargor
      >
      > Yet another piece of info, using
      > BONUS:SPELLCAST|CLASS=Wizard;LEVEL=10|1 works if a CAST line gives
      > spells of 10th level, but MAXLEVEL returns 9.
      >
      > Andargor

      Part IV: bonus spells due to a high spellcasting ability score do not
      get added to spells > 9th level.

      Andargor
    • Chuck Pint
      ... I m not able to reproduce this problem with the OS. Tried using 5.7.13, Java 1.4.2_06, XP home. Started PCGen using pcgen_high_mem.bat (which is a great
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello and Happy New Year!
        >
        > Yep, me again. Spells per day, our favorite topic.
        >
        > Firstly, spells per day display properly for characters <= 20 in PCGen
        > itself. However, they are all zero on the outputsheet. I'm using
        > csheet_fantasy_std_blackandwhite.xslt.
        >
        > Secondly, spellcasters >= lvl 21 no longer display zero spells per day
        > in PCGen, which is a Good Thing(tm). The same problem however appears
        > on the outputsheets, where spells per day are zeroed out.
        >
        > Further, adding a feat like Improved Spell Capacity does not display
        > level 10+ spells in PCGen or on the outputsheet. Lastly, the MAXLEVEL
        > variable does not seem to take into account things like
        > BONUS:SPELLCAST|CLASS=Wizard;LEVEL=10|1 (notice level 10), which
        > should increment MAXLEVEL to 10.
        >
        > That's all for now, taa-ta!
        >
        > Andargor

        I'm not able to reproduce this problem with the OS. Tried using
        5.7.13, Java 1.4.2_06, XP home. Started PCGen using
        "pcgen_high_mem.bat" (which is a great touch, thanks!). Used RSRD
        (complete).

        I created a 10th level Wizard all stats at 10, except Int which was 18
        (20 after leveling). Tried std and simple for PDF, as well as std for
        HTML. In all cases I got all zeros for spells Known, but the correct
        number for spells per day. Since Wizards don't have a limit for spells
        known, I'm assuming the zero is simply there because it doesn't matter.

        Then I tried the same thing with a 10th level Sorcerer, all stats at
        10, except Charisma of 18 (20 after leveling). Tried same 3 OS, and
        got the correct number of spells Known and the correct number of
        spells per day.

        But I did find one strange thing looking at the OS for the PDF sheets.
        If there are no spells in the spellbook for a level, then the number
        of spells Known and per day list out as zero. Did you actually pick
        spells? All it takes is one spell in each level and it prints fine.
        This is not the case in the HTML. I'll look and see what's different
        and fix this problem in the PDF. A little change to the BASE.XML
        should be all that's needed.

        Chuck
        OS Chimp

        P.S. I've made and committed that change to BASE.XML. Check it out if
        want.
      • andargor
        ... No I didn t pick spells, and I saw the same behavior you described: spells per day 0 only for levels for which there are known spells. I ve checked out
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello and Happy New Year!
          > >
          > > Yep, me again. Spells per day, our favorite topic.
          > >
          > > Firstly, spells per day display properly for characters <= 20 in PCGen
          > > itself. However, they are all zero on the outputsheet. I'm using
          > > csheet_fantasy_std_blackandwhite.xslt.
          > >
          > > Secondly, spellcasters >= lvl 21 no longer display zero spells per day
          > > in PCGen, which is a Good Thing(tm). The same problem however appears
          > > on the outputsheets, where spells per day are zeroed out.
          > >
          > > Further, adding a feat like Improved Spell Capacity does not display
          > > level 10+ spells in PCGen or on the outputsheet. Lastly, the MAXLEVEL
          > > variable does not seem to take into account things like
          > > BONUS:SPELLCAST|CLASS=Wizard;LEVEL=10|1 (notice level 10), which
          > > should increment MAXLEVEL to 10.
          > >
          > > That's all for now, taa-ta!
          > >
          > > Andargor
          >
          > I'm not able to reproduce this problem with the OS. Tried using
          > 5.7.13, Java 1.4.2_06, XP home. Started PCGen using
          > "pcgen_high_mem.bat" (which is a great touch, thanks!). Used RSRD
          > (complete).
          >
          > I created a 10th level Wizard all stats at 10, except Int which was 18
          > (20 after leveling). Tried std and simple for PDF, as well as std for
          > HTML. In all cases I got all zeros for spells Known, but the correct
          > number for spells per day. Since Wizards don't have a limit for spells
          > known, I'm assuming the zero is simply there because it doesn't matter.
          >
          > Then I tried the same thing with a 10th level Sorcerer, all stats at
          > 10, except Charisma of 18 (20 after leveling). Tried same 3 OS, and
          > got the correct number of spells Known and the correct number of
          > spells per day.
          >
          > But I did find one strange thing looking at the OS for the PDF sheets.
          > If there are no spells in the spellbook for a level, then the number
          > of spells Known and per day list out as zero. Did you actually pick
          > spells? All it takes is one spell in each level and it prints fine.
          > This is not the case in the HTML. I'll look and see what's different
          > and fix this problem in the PDF. A little change to the BASE.XML
          > should be all that's needed.
          >
          > Chuck
          > OS Chimp
          >
          > P.S. I've made and committed that change to BASE.XML. Check it out if
          > want.

          No I didn't pick spells, and I saw the same behavior you described:
          spells per day > 0 only for levels for which there are known spells.

          I've checked out the dev CVS, but I don't see build.xml except in
          testsuite. Actually, I don't see any of the outputsheets. Is it in
          another project?

          Andargor
        • Éric Beaudoin
          ... The OS sheet are in the PCGenDoc project. ... Éric Beaudoin Nanny could get a statue to cry on her shoulder
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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            At 22:03 2005.01.01, andargor wrote:
            >No I didn't pick spells, and I saw the same behavior you described:
            >spells per day > 0 only for levels for which there are known spells.
            >
            >I've checked out the dev CVS, but I don't see build.xml except in
            >testsuite. Actually, I don't see any of the outputsheets. Is it in
            >another project?
            >
            >Andargor

            The OS sheet are in the PCGenDoc project.


            -----------------------------------------------------------
            Éric Beaudoin <mailto:beaudoer@...>

            Nanny could get a statue to cry on her shoulder and say what it really
            thought about pigeons.
            -- (Terry Pratchett, Maskerade)
          • Chuck Pint
            ... The OS are in the pcgendocs project on Source Forge. BASE.XML should be in the outputsheets folder. That s the only file that needed changing to fix
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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              > No I didn't pick spells, and I saw the same behavior you described:
              > spells per day > 0 only for levels for which there are known spells.
              >
              > I've checked out the dev CVS, but I don't see build.xml except in
              > testsuite. Actually, I don't see any of the outputsheets. Is it in
              > another project?
              >
              > Andargor

              The OS are in the "pcgendocs" project on Source Forge. BASE.XML should
              be in the "outputsheets" folder. That's the only file that needed
              changing to fix this problem.

              Chuck
              OS Chimp
            • andargor
              ... Ah. I don t have dev checkout permission for pcgendocs: cvs -z3 -d:ext:andargor@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/pcgendocs co . cvs checkout: Updating . cvs
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 1, 2005
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                >
                > > No I didn't pick spells, and I saw the same behavior you described:
                > > spells per day > 0 only for levels for which there are known spells.
                > >
                > > I've checked out the dev CVS, but I don't see build.xml except in
                > > testsuite. Actually, I don't see any of the outputsheets. Is it in
                > > another project?
                > >
                > > Andargor
                >
                > The OS are in the "pcgendocs" project on Source Forge. BASE.XML should
                > be in the "outputsheets" folder. That's the only file that needed
                > changing to fix this problem.
                >
                > Chuck
                > OS Chimp

                Ah. I don't have dev checkout permission for pcgendocs:

                cvs -z3 -d:ext:andargor@...:/cvsroot/pcgendocs co .

                cvs checkout: Updating .
                cvs checkout: failed to create lock directory for `/cvsroot/pcgendocs'
                (/cvsroot/pcgendocs/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
                cvs checkout: failed to obtain dir lock in repository `/cvsroot/pcgendocs'
                cvs [checkout aborted]: read lock failed - giving up

                I doubt your change has propagated to anon cvs, so I'll wait tomorrow.

                Andargor
              • taluroniscandar
                ... Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10 spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "andargor" <andargor@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello and Happy New Year!
                  > >
                  > > Yep, me again. Spells per day, our favorite topic.
                  > >
                  > > Firstly, spells per day display properly for characters <= 20 in PCGen
                  > > itself. However, they are all zero on the outputsheet. I'm using
                  > > csheet_fantasy_std_blackandwhite.xslt.
                  > >
                  > > Secondly, spellcasters >= lvl 21 no longer display zero spells per day
                  > > in PCGen, which is a Good Thing(tm). The same problem however appears
                  > > on the outputsheets, where spells per day are zeroed out.
                  > >
                  > > Further, adding a feat like Improved Spell Capacity does not display
                  > > level 10+ spells in PCGen or on the outputsheet. Lastly, the MAXLEVEL
                  > > variable does not seem to take into account things like
                  > > BONUS:SPELLCAST|CLASS=Wizard;LEVEL=10|1 (notice level 10), which
                  > > should increment MAXLEVEL to 10.
                  > >
                  > > That's all for now, taa-ta!
                  > >

                  > I created a 10th level Wizard all stats at 10, except Int which was 18
                  > (20 after leveling). Tried std and simple for PDF, as well as std for
                  > HTML. In all cases I got all zeros for spells Known, but the correct
                  > number for spells per day. Since Wizards don't have a limit for spells
                  > known, I'm assuming the zero is simply there because it doesn't matter.
                  >
                  > Then I tried the same thing with a 10th level Sorcerer, all stats at
                  > 10, except Charisma of 18 (20 after leveling). Tried same 3 OS, and
                  > got the correct number of spells Known and the correct number of
                  > spells per day.
                  >

                  Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                  spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                  ... Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not caster level. Tir Gwaith LST Chimp
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                    > Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                    > spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.

                    Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not caster level.

                    Tir Gwaith
                    LST Chimp
                  • tir_gwaith
                    There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won t do anything unless there is an open slot available to apply to. Andargor, you ll need an actual CAST Tag with 11
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                      There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won't do anything unless there
                      is an open slot available to apply to.

                      Andargor, you'll need an actual CAST Tag with 11 entries to open up
                      the BONUS:SPELLCAST tag at LEVEL=10. Without even a 0 on the 10th
                      level slot means that the class level can't cast that level at all,
                      and any BONUSes to that won't work.

                      Tir Gwaith
                      LST Chimp

                      > Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not
                      caster level.
                      >
                    • andargor
                      ... But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I m talking about 10th level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level higher that the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "tir_gwaith" <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:
                        >
                        > There is a point here: BONUS:SPELLCAST won't do anything unless there
                        > is an open slot available to apply to.
                        >
                        > Andargor, you'll need an actual CAST Tag with 11 entries to open up
                        > the BONUS:SPELLCAST tag at LEVEL=10. Without even a 0 on the 10th
                        > level slot means that the class level can't cast that level at all,
                        > and any BONUSes to that won't work.
                        >
                        > Tir Gwaith
                        > LST Chimp
                        >
                        > > Heh. LEVEL= in BONUS:SPELLCAST is referring to Spell level, not
                        > caster level.
                        > >

                        But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                        level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                        higher that the character can cast. So:

                        - MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                        level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                        - Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                        be taken into account for those slots
                        - They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                        the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.

                        I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                        look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                        and consistent spells per day approach?

                        Andargor
                      • Éric Beaudoin
                        ... My guess is that is would need some new code FREQ. This would make it a post 5.8 functionnality. ... Éric Space Monkey Beaudoin Founding Member of the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                          At 11:43 2005.01.02, andargor wrote:
                          >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                          >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                          >higher that the character can cast. So:
                          >
                          >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                          >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                          >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                          >be taken into account for those slots
                          >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                          >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
                          >
                          >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                          >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                          >and consistent spells per day approach?
                          >
                          >Andargor

                          My guess is that is would need some new code FREQ. This would make it a post 5.8 functionnality.


                          -----------------------------------------------------------
                          Éric "Space Monkey" Beaudoin
                          Founding Member of the Hidden-in-the-Trench Club
                          Release Monkey and Syntax Watchdog
                          >> In space, no one can hear you sleep.
                          >> Camels to can climb trees (and sometime eat them).
                          <mailto:beaudoer@...>
                        • Barak
                          ... Where do you see that? The table in the PHB oly goes to 9th level, and there is no extension or mention in the DMG (so I would presume it is the same in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                            ---Original Message-----
                            > From: andargor [mailto:andargor@...]

                            > - Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score
                            > need to be taken into account for those slots

                            Where do you see that? The table in the PHB oly goes to 9th level, and
                            there is no extension or mention in the DMG (so I would presume it is the
                            same in the R/SRD).

                            In fact, the DMG says "Howwever, a character's spells per day do not
                            increase after 20th level."

                            As a matter of fact, 10th and greater are Epic spells and, IIRC, subject to
                            other criteria on how often they can be cast, not the normal spellcasting
                            rules. (Or did that change in 3.5???)

                            Barak
                          • Paul W. King
                            Not quite. EpicFeats.rtf EPIC SPELLCASTING [EPIC] Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                              Not quite.

                              EpicFeats.rtf
                              EPIC SPELLCASTING [EPIC]
                              Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to
                              cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion)
                              24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks,
                              Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.
                              Benefit: The character may develop and cast epic spells. If the character
                              is an arcane spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic spells per day
                              equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If the
                              character is a divine spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic
                              spells per day equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (religion) or
                              Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.
                              Special: If the character meets more than one set of prerequisites, the
                              limit on the number of spells he or she may cast per day is cumulative.

                              IMPROVED SPELL CAPACITY [EPIC]
                              Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at
                              least one spellcasting class.
                              Benefit: When the character selects this feat, he or she gains one spell
                              slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level
                              spell the character can already cast in a particular class. The character
                              must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to
                              cast any spell stored in this slot. If the character has a high enough
                              ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, he
                              or she also gains the bonus spells for this spell level. The character must
                              use the spell slot as a member of the class in which he or she can already
                              cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.
                              Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times.


                              DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf
                              DIVINE SPELLCASTING
                              Prerequisites: Spellcaster level 20th.
                              Benefit: The deity can cast spells whose effective level is above 9th. The
                              number of spells per day the deity can cast of each spell level above 9th
                              depends on the deity’s key ability score for spell-casting classes in which
                              the deity has achieved 20th level, as shown on Table: Divine Spellcasting.
                              The numbers on that table represent one spell per day at each spell level
                              above 9th in which it receives bonus spells from its key ability score, plus
                              bonus spells based on the key ability score. The deity can use these slots
                              for spells prepared or cast with a metamagic feat, or for lower-level
                              spells.
                              If the deity has achieved 20th level in a spellcasting class with fewer than
                              nine levels of spells (such as bard, paladin, or ranger), the deity can also
                              cast one spell per day of each level between the maximum normal spell level
                              and 9th, plus appropriate bonus spells of each level based on the deity’s
                              key ability score. These spells are not shown on the table.
                              The deity also doesn’t incur attacks of opportunity for casting spells when
                              threatened.
                              In addition, the deity receives the benefit of the Spell Focus feat on any
                              spell it casts.


                              So, Epic spells are cast via the Epic Spellcasting feat. To cast 10th and
                              higher level spells, you need either Improved Spell Capacity (if mortal) or
                              Divine Spellcasting (if divine).

                              Paul W. King
                              TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Gibbon, BoD

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Barak [mailto:barak@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:15 PM
                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [pcgen] Re: [5.7.13][autobuild] Spells per Day, yet again

                              As a matter of fact, 10th and greater are Epic spells and, IIRC, subject to
                              other criteria on how often they can be cast, not the normal spellcasting
                              rules. (Or did that change in 3.5???)
                              --
                              No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                              Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004
                            • Devon Jones
                              ... We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff that is not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we have avoided
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                                andargor wrote:

                                >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                                >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                                >higher that the character can cast. So:
                                >
                                >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                                >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                                >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                                >be taken into account for those slots
                                >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                                >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
                                >
                                >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                                >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                                >and consistent spells per day approach?
                                >
                                >Andargor
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff that is
                                not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                                have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.

                                Devon
                              • Devon Jones
                                ... Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and as such any rules would be house rules. I m not certain developing an alternative
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                                  taluroniscandar wrote:

                                  >Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                                  >spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and
                                  as such any rules would be house rules.
                                  I'm not certain developing an alternative set of rules to the epic rules
                                  is really part of pcgen's mission.

                                  I have no problem developing code to let people create infinite classes
                                  (classes that grant certain thaings at known intervals, and this can
                                  scale intinitely) - but I don't think this is something we should be
                                  aiming to support directly in the rsrd - cause doing so would actually
                                  mean our RSRD is broken.
                                  Devon
                                • andargor
                                  ... rules ... Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I m not asking for new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has provisions
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 2, 2005
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                                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jones <soulcatcher@e...> wrote:
                                    > taluroniscandar wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >Chuck was testing 10th class level, Andagor was reporting on level 10
                                    > >spell slots which requires class cster level 21+.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > Only with epic. There are no rules for normal classes after 20th - and
                                    > as such any rules would be house rules.
                                    > I'm not certain developing an alternative set of rules to the epic
                                    rules
                                    > is really part of pcgen's mission.
                                    >
                                    > I have no problem developing code to let people create infinite classes
                                    > (classes that grant certain thaings at known intervals, and this can
                                    > scale intinitely) - but I don't think this is something we should be
                                    > aiming to support directly in the rsrd - cause doing so would actually
                                    > mean our RSRD is broken.
                                    > Devon

                                    Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I'm not asking for
                                    new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has
                                    provisions for infinite spell levels (yes, the epic rules).

                                    So my previous requests will have to be implemented if you wish to
                                    adhere to the RSRD and the epic rules. And the CAST comment is because
                                    the solution that was proposed is uncomfortable at best.

                                    I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).

                                    I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                                    to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                                    handled are required.

                                    Andargor
                                  • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                                    ... We currently don t support Epic portion of the RSRD, and yes, I knew there would need to be some significant code changes needed for it back when we were
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                      > Erm, in reference to this and the previous post, I'm not asking for
                                      > new content, but for what is laid out in the RSRD. The RSRD has
                                      > provisions for infinite spell levels (yes, the epic rules).

                                      We currently don't support Epic portion of the RSRD, and yes, I knew there would need to be some significant code changes needed for it back when we were planning, and knew it would take some work to A) figure out what was needed B) develop specs for it C) implement the specs D) bug correct for stuff we didn't see, or interaction issues.

                                      At that point, I suggested we scale down and get Psionics into our RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least one more major twist). Mostly cause I knew the spec and code development wouldn't be that great, and efforts there could be on squashing irritating issues like the 3.5 Ranger. Solidify/fix what we have before adding new stuff. (Yes there has to be a balance, something I've learned over the last 18 months, but when dealing with CORE, I think that still wholly applies.)

                                      > So my previous requests will have to be implemented if you wish to
                                      > adhere to the RSRD and the epic rules. And the CAST comment is because
                                      > the solution that was proposed is uncomfortable at best.

                                      I didn't say that was the solution. I was stating stuff as it stands NOW, with current code. Spellcasting in general with PCGen is a bit, um, archaic/backward/narrowly? defined (fill in the blank.) PITA to get anything away from standard 3.0 casting types, and even then, it isn't always handled right (PRExxx casting types work off of 'spell type', not caster type).

                                      > I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).

                                      I'm not sorry. The Ranger's major issue was that lots of people wanted what was most important to them about it to work correctly, and not caring about the rest of the users. I'd close one bug, and get reports of how my fix 'broke' it for someone else Some of the fixes were mutually exclusive using the code at the time. THAT sooo irked me; to the point that I designed what the ideal should be, and pushing to get it implemented (code changes), because anything else was going to have someone complaining. Thank the Goddess that I haven't had people complaining about the current implementation. It tells me I did it Right. If people start seeing something wrong with how we have it now, we all might as well hang up our hats and go home.

                                      On Epic, I hope we don't go including it with lots of data and work-arounds. We've known two things for a long time: 1) spellcasting needs a good massage to get it more flexible. It not only can't handle Epic stuff right, but also a whole slew of popular variants out there. 2) PCGen code has a lot of assumptions around 20 levels. That means things past level 20 get wonky.

                                      Both of those mean Epic implementation is a BIG/complex undertaking. Much more than doing a new campaign setting type source (and those are much more than a typical supplement). I know at least Barak and I disagree on this, and maybe the Board as well, but I'll say it here, because it is _my_ opinion: I'd rather spend the time and get a source designed properly from the ground up, than get a half-built thing out there and let the users cry when it doesn't work right before we consider getting things right. Too many times we've relied on users for major implementation issues and called them bugs, when in my mind, they shouldn't have even been put out in the first place. It says something about us as a publisher (and we _are_ an OGL publisher.)

                                      I don't like doing MASSIVE work arounds that start needing hundreds of objects to implement, or clunky interface requirements (like current Dawnforge race advancement implementation). Unless you can hit 99.5%+ of all germs with that implementation, it is going to be more of a headache for the maintainers/later editors to keep things up and running, and even more complicated to get working with new code as it appears, since at that point, you have to try and figure out a way to do it properly, while not breaking existing users characters. It gets overly complicated quickly.

                                      > I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                                      > to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                                      > handled are required.

                                      As mentioned above, we've known that for a while. We just have this great script/data monkey doing prelim work for us now. :p

                                      Tir Gwaith
                                      LST Chimp
                                    • andargor
                                      ... RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least one more major
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, thoron-tir-gwaith@l... wrote:

                                        > At that point, I suggested we scale down and get Psionics into our
                                        RSRD, and done well, then tackle Epic after 5.8 (and the stable after
                                        that, DnDg stuff since that will need parts of Epic, and has at least
                                        one more major twist). Mostly cause I knew the spec and code
                                        development wouldn't be that great, and efforts there could be on
                                        squashing irritating issues like the 3.5 Ranger. Solidify/fix what we
                                        have before adding new stuff. (Yes there has to be a balance,
                                        something I've learned over the last 18 months, but when dealing with
                                        CORE, I think that still wholly applies.)
                                        >

                                        Yes, I've always known that it was a post 5.8 priority.

                                        > > I'm trying to avoid another Ranger here (sorry Tir...).
                                        >
                                        > I'm not sorry. The Ranger's major issue was that lots of people
                                        wanted what was most important to them about it to work correctly, and
                                        not caring about the rest of the users. I'd close one bug, and get
                                        reports of how my fix 'broke' it for someone else Some of the fixes
                                        were mutually exclusive using the code at the time. THAT sooo irked
                                        me; to the point that I designed what the ideal should be, and pushing
                                        to get it implemented (code changes), because anything else was going
                                        to have someone complaining. Thank the Goddess that I haven't had
                                        people complaining about the current implementation. It tells me I
                                        did it Right. If people start seeing something wrong with how we have
                                        it now, we all might as well hang up our hats and go home.
                                        >

                                        Yes, I remember that saga, and I know you did your best with what you
                                        had. :)

                                        > Both of those mean Epic implementation is a BIG/complex undertaking.
                                        Much more than doing a new campaign setting type source (and those
                                        are much more than a typical supplement). I know at least Barak and I
                                        disagree on this, and maybe the Board as well, but I'll say it here,
                                        because it is _my_ opinion: I'd rather spend the time and get a source
                                        designed properly from the ground up, than get a half-built thing out
                                        there and let the users cry when it doesn't work right before we
                                        consider getting things right. Too many times we've relied on users
                                        for major implementation issues and called them bugs, when in my mind,
                                        they shouldn't have even been put out in the first place. It says
                                        something about us as a publisher (and we _are_ an OGL publisher.)
                                        >
                                        > I don't like doing MASSIVE work arounds that start needing hundreds
                                        of objects to implement, or clunky interface requirements (like
                                        current Dawnforge race advancement implementation). Unless you can
                                        hit 99.5%+ of all germs with that implementation, it is going to be
                                        more of a headache for the maintainers/later editors to keep things up
                                        and running, and even more complicated to get working with new code as
                                        it appears, since at that point, you have to try and figure out a way
                                        to do it properly, while not breaking existing users characters. It
                                        gets overly complicated quickly.
                                        >
                                        > > I know you've been working hard on the code, but if you ever want it
                                        > > to be usable > 20th level, some major changes on how spells are
                                        > > handled are required.
                                        >
                                        > As mentioned above, we've known that for a while. We just have this
                                        great script/data monkey doing prelim work for us now. :p
                                        >
                                        > Tir Gwaith
                                        > LST Chimp

                                        I generally agree with the rest of your points. At least we have a
                                        starting point for Epic.

                                        Andargor
                                      • taluroniscandar
                                        ... that is ... Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source that does that.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Devon Jones <soulcatcher@e...> wrote:
                                          > andargor wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >But what happens to Improved Spell Capacity? I'm talking about 10th
                                          > >level, 11th level, etc. ad infinitum. It adds a slot up to a level
                                          > >higher that the character can cast. So:
                                          > >
                                          > >- MAXLEVEL needs to follow that, so that the added slot may be from
                                          > >level 0 to MAXLEVEL+1
                                          > >- Bonus spells per day from a high spellcasting ability score need to
                                          > >be taken into account for those slots
                                          > >- They need to be displayed properly (both in the spells pane and on
                                          > >the outputsheets), so CAST with a lot of 0's will look strange.
                                          > >
                                          > >I'm very uncomfortable with the CAST mechanic in any case. It would
                                          > >look very kludgy. Is there no way to implement an infinitely scalable
                                          > >and consistent spells per day approach?
                                          > >

                                          > >
                                          > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                                          that is
                                          > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                                          > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                                          >
                                          Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                                          that does that.
                                        • Chris
                                          ... we ... I *think* I know where Devon is coming from. The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don t go on infinitely... Spells/spell levels are given up to
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                            > > We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                                            > that is
                                            > > not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far
                                            we
                                            > > have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                                            > >
                                            > Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                                            > that does that.

                                            I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.

                                            The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

                                            Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
                                            this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
                                            level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
                                            have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

                                            The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
                                            we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
                                            what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

                                            After that there are Epic spells, which are a completely different
                                            animal and will need a lot of help to work in PCGen. :p

                                            Barak
                                          • Frugal
                                            ... Yeah they do ;) EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level) Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                              On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                              > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                              >
                                              > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...

                                              Yeah they do ;)

                                              EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                              "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                              slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                              directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above 25th
                                              level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

                                              > Spells/spell levels are given up to 9th level. The only way to go over
                                              > this level without being Epic is via metamagic feats applied to high
                                              > level spells. What's funny is to be able to cast these spells, you
                                              > have to take an Epic feat to get a slot to put them in. :)

                                              So only epic characters can cast high levels spells with meta magic.
                                              Sounds perfectly reasonable.

                                              > The largest boost for a metamagic feat is 8 levels IIRC, so at the most
                                              > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is
                                              > what I interpret you to be saying, and I would guess Devon is too).

                                              Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
                                              prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

                                              --
                                              regards,
                                              Frugal
                                            • Chris
                                              ... I stand corrected. Can you tell I don t play Epic? :) Hmm, you d have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th level spell. Seems like a
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                                > On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                                > > I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                                > >
                                                > > The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
                                                >
                                                > Yeah they do ;)
                                                >
                                                > EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                                > "Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                                > slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                                > directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
                                                > 25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."

                                                I stand corrected.

                                                Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)

                                                Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
                                                level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
                                                suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p

                                                > > we'd need to support up to 17th level spells, not infinity (which is

                                                > Stilled, silent, eshued, maximised, empowered, quickened, empowered
                                                > prismatic sphere is something like a 25th level spell (more or less).

                                                Doh... multiple multi-magics... didn't think about that. (I don't
                                                usually play spellcasters either, yeah, that's it!).

                                                Barak
                                              • Devon Jones
                                                ... I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as the first
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                                  taluroniscandar wrote:

                                                  >>We have no sources to do that. Asking for post 20th level stuff
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >that is
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >>not epic is essentially new pcgen content, not RSRD - and thus far we
                                                  >>have avoided generating wholely new content of this sort.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >Maybe I misunderstand your response Devon but epic rsrd IS a source
                                                  >that does that.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being asked for was
                                                  non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the same path as
                                                  the first 20 levels.

                                                  my bad.

                                                  Devon
                                                • Barak
                                                  ... That s exactly whaat s being asked for. :) See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p Barak
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 3, 2005
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                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: Devon Jones [mailto:soulcatcher@...]
                                                    > I think I was minunderstanding - I thought what was being
                                                    > asked for was
                                                    > non-epic, infinite progression that followed basically the
                                                    > same path as
                                                    > the first 20 levels.

                                                    That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)

                                                    See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p

                                                    Barak
                                                  • tir_gwaith
                                                    ... Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that is already done
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                                      > That's exactly whaat's being asked for. :)
                                                      >
                                                      > See the posts Frugal and I exchanged. :p
                                                      >
                                                      > Barak

                                                      Not Quite - the bonus spells follow that progression, and as long as
                                                      a caster can CAST at that level, they get the bonus slots (IIRC, that
                                                      is already done in the system GameMode files somewhere. If not, then
                                                      that is another hardcode we'll have to pull out.)

                                                      From what I read, he was discussing new automatic slots past 20th
                                                      level, while Frugal was mentioning the Bonus spells, which is
                                                      strictly dependent on Ability score and ability to cast a spell
                                                      level. Your comment on the feat per spell level is correct - you can
                                                      get up to 25th level spell slots by spending 16 epic feats.

                                                      Tir Gwaith
                                                      LST Chimp
                                                    • Frugal
                                                      ... especially when you can spend 9 feats to take Automatic Quicken spell , auto Silent Spell and Auto Still Spell 3 times and have every single spell you
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                                        Chris wrote:

                                                        >>On Mon, January 3, 2005 7:38 pm, Chris said:
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>>I *think* I know where Devon is coming from.
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>The levels laid out in the PHB and Epic don't go on infinitely...
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>Yeah they do ;)
                                                        >>
                                                        >>EpicFeats.rtf: (Improved Spell Capacity: Spell slots above 9th level)
                                                        >>"Even though the table only includes ability scores up to 61 and spell
                                                        >>slots up to 25th level, the progression continues infinitely in both
                                                        >>directions. For ability scores beyond 61, or for spell slots above
                                                        >>25th level, expand the table to follow the same patterns as shown."
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >
                                                        >I stand corrected.
                                                        >
                                                        >Can you tell I don't play Epic? :)
                                                        >
                                                        >Hmm, you'd have to take that feat 16 times to be able to cast one 25th
                                                        >level spell. Seems like a poor return on investment to me. But I
                                                        >suppose there's someone out there that would do that. :p
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        especially when you can spend 9 feats to take "Automatic Quicken spell",
                                                        "auto Silent Spell" and "Auto Still Spell" 3 times and have every single
                                                        spell you cast as quickened stilled and silent...

                                                        regards
                                                        Frugal
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