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Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

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  • David Finch
    ... And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition everytime some on mension it? ... As expected, B5 is well supported having LST
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Michael R. Beaver wrote:
      > OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
      > copyrighted material.

      And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition
      everytime some on mension it?

      > I have been talking with Mongoose about this
      > since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
      > they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
      > like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
      > them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
      > fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
      > understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
      > understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
      > One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
      > publishers want to see.

      As expected, B5 is well supported having LST files would help them sell
      more books.

      > Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
      > via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
      > people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
      > can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
      > cannot distribute it or host it.

      And this is why I have not up to this point even mension it here, I think I
      asked for help in the LSThelp files using 'codes' as is the normal way.
      Even on the B5 list it is not avaiable to the public to download, only to
      people that directly ask, which is kind of what MP asked me to do (BTW it
      was over a year ago so I doubt that anyone would now remeber there).

      I have been a bit busy on the personal life front so have not been working
      very hard on the B5 LST files, if this got offical permission from MP you
      can assume that our work will become avaiable and I would help out.

      Dave



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael R. Beaver
      Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference. ... From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM To:
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


        Michael R. Beaver wrote:
        > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

        Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
        kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

        Dave



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      • David Finch
        ... Oh IC, silly me :) BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial celebrations; Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day this
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
          > Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

          Oh IC, silly me :)

          BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial
          celebrations; "Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day" this weekend ;)

          /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jonathan M. Thompson
          What happens 5 November? Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com) jthompson@battlefieldpress.com / AIM -
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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            What happens 5 November?

            Jonathan M. Thompson
            President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
            jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
            Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
            Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
            30, 2004


            -----Original Message-----
            From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

            /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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          • Michael R. Beaver
            Guy Faulks day ... From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@battlefieldpress.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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              Guy Faulks day

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


              What happens 5 November?

              Jonathan M. Thompson
              President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
              jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman Luftwaffe 1946 Role
              Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric Flint's 1632 Resource
              Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November 30, 2004


              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

              /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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            • Lizard
              On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said.... ... Two words: Berne Convention. A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said....

                >You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                >rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                >distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                >American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                Two words: Berne Convention.

                A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                allows for cases to be brought where it is NOT, so, if Mongoose wanted to
                sue, they could do so in the UK or in the US, wherever it was more viable
                for them.
              • Nigel Bennington
                You should be aware that Fair Use is an American concept that most of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally distributed
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                  rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                  distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                  American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                  Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                  Derek J. Balling wrote:
                  > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                  > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                  > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                  > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                  > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                  I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                  hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                  Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                  they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                  players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                  about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                  in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                  now.

                  So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                  Dave

                  NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                  almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                  hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                  character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                  excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                  conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                  nice to ask.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                • David Finch
                  ... In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan they
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                    Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                    > Guy Faulks day
                    >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                    >> What happens 5 November?
                    >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                    >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                    "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                    Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                    they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                    traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                    an effigy of 'Guy'"

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                    It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                    large bonfire ;)

                    (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                    the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                    Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                    structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                    in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                    Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn t done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                      Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn't done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry VIII. I go into the arts (the poets and Shakespeare) but not the politics until just before 1776 (and even then just enough to know the king's name was George), and really pay attention again just prior to 1900, with the european naval arms race, and foundation of characters involved in and formation events leading up to WW1.

                      But that's just me. . .

                      Tir Gwaith
                      LST Chimp
                    • Steven Gilroy
                      This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the olden days people used to ask for a penny for the Guy . This was a monetary donation
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                        This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the
                        olden days people used to ask for "a penny for the Guy". This was a
                        monetary donation to help create the effigy of Guy that would be burned
                        on Guy Fawkes Night. Back in the 1800's and 1900's the church even
                        tried to combine Halloween with Guy Fawkes Night because they viewed
                        Halloween as to Pagan. That is one of the reasons that people actually
                        dress up for Guy Fawkes Night too.
                        (I'm not british but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn
                        Express....err...I mean....I saw a special on the History Channel Sunday
                        evening)

                        David Finch wrote:

                        >Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>Guy Faulks day
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                        >>>What happens 5 November?
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                        >>>>/*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >
                        >"In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                        >Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                        >they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                        >traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                        >an effigy of 'Guy'"
                        >
                        >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night
                        >
                        >It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                        >large bonfire ;)
                        >
                        >(*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                        >the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                        >Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                        >structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                        >in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        --

                        Steven Gilroy
                        PCGen OS Lemur
                        "In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael R. Beaver
                        Penny for the Guy? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM To:
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          Penny for the Guy?

                          ________________________________

                          From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM
                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Bonfire Night was [Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5]


                          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                          > Guy Faulks day
                          >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                          >> What happens 5 November?
                          >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                          >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                          "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up
                          the
                          Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan

                          they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                          traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and
                          burning
                          an effigy of 'Guy'"

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                          It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                          large bonfire ;)

                          (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have
                          killed
                          the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the
                          English
                          Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English
                          political
                          structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it
                          was
                          in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike Mitchell
                          On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver ... Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small change off people, then go and buy
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                            On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver
                            <michael@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Penny for the Guy?

                            Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small
                            change off people, then go and buy small explosives to play with.
                            Originally innocent fun, until the little gits started hurting
                            themselves with the fireworks, or putting them through people's doors
                            etc.

                            The "Guy" would be burnt on a bonfire during the fireworks - to
                            recreate the execution of the "heretic" Guy Fawkes after his failed
                            attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

                            --
                            "Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The
                            sleeper must awaken."
                          • Ed Holley
                            It is also a concept required for software under Russian law. _____ From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@onlineguild.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                              It is also a concept required for software under Russian law.



                              _____

                              From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@...]
                              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                              You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                              rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                              distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                              American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                              Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                              Derek J. Balling wrote:
                              > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                              > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                              > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                              > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                              > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                              I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                              hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                              Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                              they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                              players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                              about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                              in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                              now.

                              So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                              Dave

                              NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                              almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                              hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                              character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                              excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                              conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                              nice to ask.





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Finch
                              ... http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/ (1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                > rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                > distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                > American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works*
                                /Artical 10/

                                "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not exceed
                                that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles
                                and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                ...

                                I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and had
                                assumed that this was the generic term.

                                Dave



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Michael R. Beaver
                                OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take it over to: ogf-d20-l-bounces@opengamingfoundation.org This is a mailing list for
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                  OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take
                                  it over to: "ogf-d20-l-bounces@..." This is a
                                  mailing list for pcgen.....


                                  Beaver
                                  PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:21 AM
                                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                  Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                  > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most
                                  > of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an
                                  > internationally distributed product, we need to abide by international

                                  > copyright law, not American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                  http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                  *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/

                                  "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                  already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                  making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not
                                  exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from
                                  newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                  "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                  Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                  concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                  shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                  United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                  The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                  ...

                                  I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and
                                  had assumed that this was the generic term.

                                  Dave



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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