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RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

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  • Michael R. Beaver
    Who refered to you as the guy ? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Who refered to you as "the guy"?

      ________________________________

      From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
      Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28 AM
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


      Derek J. Balling wrote:
      > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
      > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
      > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
      > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
      > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

      I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have
      been
      hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

      Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes
      but
      they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
      players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask

      about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly
      but
      in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they
      say now.

      So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

      Dave

      NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
      almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before
      being
      hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a

      character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
      excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been
      a
      conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is
      always
      nice to ask.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • notyetmousse24@aol.com
      jthompson sez... I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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        jthompson sez...

        'I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a
        copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact him and see if
        I can give out his email address if you contact me in private.'

        In general it is considered smarter to offer such illegal help out of the
        earshot (or eyeshot as the case may be) of a large group of witnesses and/or
        where a standing record is kept.

        NotMousse
        TM, QA Tamarin, Made Emily Smirle laugh

        I mean, if I can't even get a discount out of someone else's misfortune,
        what's the point?
        -MisterTambo, founding member of the League of Unemployed Gentlemen


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Finch
        ... Well I don t know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;) Dave [Non-text
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
          > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

          Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
          kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

          Dave



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Finch
          ... And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition everytime some on mension it? ... As expected, B5 is well supported having LST
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Michael R. Beaver wrote:
            > OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
            > copyrighted material.

            And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition
            everytime some on mension it?

            > I have been talking with Mongoose about this
            > since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
            > they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
            > like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
            > them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
            > fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
            > understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
            > understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
            > One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
            > publishers want to see.

            As expected, B5 is well supported having LST files would help them sell
            more books.

            > Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
            > via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
            > people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
            > can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
            > cannot distribute it or host it.

            And this is why I have not up to this point even mension it here, I think I
            asked for help in the LSThelp files using 'codes' as is the normal way.
            Even on the B5 list it is not avaiable to the public to download, only to
            people that directly ask, which is kind of what MP asked me to do (BTW it
            was over a year ago so I doubt that anyone would now remeber there).

            I have been a bit busy on the personal life front so have not been working
            very hard on the B5 LST files, if this got offical permission from MP you
            can assume that our work will become avaiable and I would help out.

            Dave



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael R. Beaver
            Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference. ... From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM To:
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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              Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


              Michael R. Beaver wrote:
              > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

              Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
              kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

              Dave



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • David Finch
              ... Oh IC, silly me :) BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial celebrations; Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day this
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                > Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

                Oh IC, silly me :)

                BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial
                celebrations; "Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day" this weekend ;)

                /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jonathan M. Thompson
                What happens 5 November? Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com) jthompson@battlefieldpress.com / AIM -
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  What happens 5 November?

                  Jonathan M. Thompson
                  President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                  jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
                  Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
                  Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
                  30, 2004


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                  Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                  /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                • Michael R. Beaver
                  Guy Faulks day ... From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@battlefieldpress.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                    Guy Faulks day

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                    What happens 5 November?

                    Jonathan M. Thompson
                    President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                    jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman Luftwaffe 1946 Role
                    Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric Flint's 1632 Resource
                    Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November 30, 2004


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                    /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                  • Lizard
                    On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said.... ... Two words: Berne Convention. A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                      On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said....

                      >You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                      >rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                      >distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                      >American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                      Two words: Berne Convention.

                      A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                      allows for cases to be brought where it is NOT, so, if Mongoose wanted to
                      sue, they could do so in the UK or in the US, wherever it was more viable
                      for them.
                    • Nigel Bennington
                      You should be aware that Fair Use is an American concept that most of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally distributed
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                        You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                        rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                        distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                        American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                        Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                        Derek J. Balling wrote:
                        > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                        > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                        > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                        > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                        > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                        I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                        hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                        Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                        they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                        players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                        about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                        in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                        now.

                        So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                        Dave

                        NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                        almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                        hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                        character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                        excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                        conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                        nice to ask.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                        PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                        PCGen's FAQ:
                        http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/
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                      • David Finch
                        ... In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan they
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                          > Guy Faulks day
                          >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                          >> What happens 5 November?
                          >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                          >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                          "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                          Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                          they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                          traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                          an effigy of 'Guy'"

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                          It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                          large bonfire ;)

                          (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                          the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                          Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                          structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                          in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                          Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn t done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                            Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn't done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry VIII. I go into the arts (the poets and Shakespeare) but not the politics until just before 1776 (and even then just enough to know the king's name was George), and really pay attention again just prior to 1900, with the european naval arms race, and foundation of characters involved in and formation events leading up to WW1.

                            But that's just me. . .

                            Tir Gwaith
                            LST Chimp
                          • Steven Gilroy
                            This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the olden days people used to ask for a penny for the Guy . This was a monetary donation
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                              This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the
                              olden days people used to ask for "a penny for the Guy". This was a
                              monetary donation to help create the effigy of Guy that would be burned
                              on Guy Fawkes Night. Back in the 1800's and 1900's the church even
                              tried to combine Halloween with Guy Fawkes Night because they viewed
                              Halloween as to Pagan. That is one of the reasons that people actually
                              dress up for Guy Fawkes Night too.
                              (I'm not british but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn
                              Express....err...I mean....I saw a special on the History Channel Sunday
                              evening)

                              David Finch wrote:

                              >Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Guy Faulks day
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>>Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                              >>>What happens 5 November?
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>>David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                              >>>>/*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >
                              >"In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                              >Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                              >they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                              >traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                              >an effigy of 'Guy'"
                              >
                              >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night
                              >
                              >It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                              >large bonfire ;)
                              >
                              >(*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                              >the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                              >Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                              >structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                              >in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              --

                              Steven Gilroy
                              PCGen OS Lemur
                              "In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Michael R. Beaver
                              Penny for the Guy? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM To:
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                Penny for the Guy?

                                ________________________________

                                From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM
                                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Bonfire Night was [Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5]


                                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                > Guy Faulks day
                                >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                >> What happens 5 November?
                                >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                                "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up
                                the
                                Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan

                                they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and
                                burning
                                an effigy of 'Guy'"

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                                It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                large bonfire ;)

                                (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have
                                killed
                                the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the
                                English
                                Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English
                                political
                                structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it
                                was
                                in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              • Mike Mitchell
                                On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver ... Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small change off people, then go and buy
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                  On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver
                                  <michael@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Penny for the Guy?

                                  Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small
                                  change off people, then go and buy small explosives to play with.
                                  Originally innocent fun, until the little gits started hurting
                                  themselves with the fireworks, or putting them through people's doors
                                  etc.

                                  The "Guy" would be burnt on a bonfire during the fireworks - to
                                  recreate the execution of the "heretic" Guy Fawkes after his failed
                                  attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

                                  --
                                  "Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The
                                  sleeper must awaken."
                                • Ed Holley
                                  It is also a concept required for software under Russian law. _____ From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@onlineguild.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                    It is also a concept required for software under Russian law.



                                    _____

                                    From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                                    You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                    rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                    distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                    American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                    Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                    Derek J. Balling wrote:
                                    > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                                    > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                                    > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                                    > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                                    > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                                    I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                                    hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                                    Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                                    they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                                    players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                                    about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                                    in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                                    now.

                                    So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                                    Dave

                                    NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                                    almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                                    hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                                    character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                                    excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                                    conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                                    nice to ask.





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Finch
                                    ... http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/ (1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                      Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                      > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                      > rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                      > distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                      > American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                      http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                      *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works*
                                      /Artical 10/

                                      "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                      already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                      making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not exceed
                                      that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles
                                      and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                      "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                      Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                      concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                      shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                      United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                      The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                      ...

                                      I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and had
                                      assumed that this was the generic term.

                                      Dave



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Michael R. Beaver
                                      OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take it over to: ogf-d20-l-bounces@opengamingfoundation.org This is a mailing list for
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                        OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take
                                        it over to: "ogf-d20-l-bounces@..." This is a
                                        mailing list for pcgen.....


                                        Beaver
                                        PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:21 AM
                                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                        Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                        > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most
                                        > of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an
                                        > internationally distributed product, we need to abide by international

                                        > copyright law, not American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                        http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                        *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/

                                        "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                        already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                        making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not
                                        exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from
                                        newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                        "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                        Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                        concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                        shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                        United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                        The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                        ...

                                        I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and
                                        had assumed that this was the generic term.

                                        Dave



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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