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RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

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  • Jonathan M. Thompson
    I m not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they can do what they want when they get together. Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
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      I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
      can do what they want when they get together.

      Jonathan M. Thompson
      President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
      jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
      Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
      Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
      30, 2004


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Derek J. Balling [mailto:groups@...]
      Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:42 AM
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



      On Oct 31, 2004, at 08:14 AM, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:

      > PS I am not endorsing any act that will violate any copyright,
      > trademarks or licenses now in effect.

      Except, of course, that you are by helping a copyright violation occur,
      facilitating a felony.

      Just thinking out loud.

      D



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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    • jthompson@battlefieldpress.com
      ... Though however I see your point, and withdrawl my offer.
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
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        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Thompson" <jthompson@b...>
        wrote:
        > I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
        > can do what they want when they get together.

        Though however I see your point, and withdrawl my offer.

        > Jonathan M. Thompson
        > President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
        > jthompson@b... / AIM - GreyLnsman
        > Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
        > Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
        > 30, 2004
      • Derek J. Balling
        ... Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman. Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you... Doesn t really hold up as a defense in court,
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
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          On Oct 31, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:
          > I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
          > can do what they want when they get together.

          Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
          Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...

          Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)

          just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
          infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

          Cheers,
          D



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris McLaughlin
          Hi Paul, I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to include Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
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            Hi Paul,

            I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to include
            Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
            Brothers.



            I'll keep you up to date with developments as they happen.



            Regards,

            Chris



            _____

            From: Paul W. King [mailto:paulking.rhochi@...]
            Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 11:00 p.m.
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



            That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached both
            Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
            have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5 line.

            Paul W. King
            TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
            Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

            Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
            Babylon 5 RPG?




            PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
            PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
            PCGen's FAQ:
            http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael R. Beaver
            Chris, Contact me off list about this source. Beaver PCGen BoD - Chair/PL ( michael at tripleknot.com) ________________________________ From: Chris McLaughlin
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
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              Chris,

              Contact me off list about this source.

              Beaver
              PCGen BoD - Chair/PL
              ( michael at tripleknot.com)

              ________________________________

              From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:57 PM
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


              Hi Paul,

              I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to
              include
              Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
              Brothers.



              I'll keep you up to date with developments as they happen.



              Regards,

              Chris



              _____

              From: Paul W. King [mailto:paulking.rhochi@...]
              Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 11:00 p.m.
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



              That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached
              both
              Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
              have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5
              line.

              Paul W. King
              TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

              Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
              Babylon 5 RPG?




              PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
              PCGen's FAQ:
              http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • David Finch
              ... I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet. Basically I
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                Derek J. Balling wrote:
                > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say now.

                So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                Dave

                NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                nice to ask.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • notyetmousse24@aol.com
                groups sez... Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman. Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you... Doesn t really hold up as a defense
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  groups sez...

                  'Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                  Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...

                  Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually.'

                  Sure it does! I mean why would reffering your friend to a dealer in
                  obviously illegal services be considered bad?

                  'just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                  infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale...'

                  You might not, but I'm sure the MPAA and RIAA disagree with you.

                  NotMousse
                  TM, QA Tamarin, Made Emily Smirle laugh

                  I mean, if I can't even get a discount out of someone else's misfortune,
                  what's the point?
                  -MisterTambo, founding member of the League of Unemployed Gentlemen


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael R. Beaver
                  OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing copyrighted material. I have been talking with Mongoose about this since GAMA. They are
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                    OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
                    copyrighted material. I have been talking with Mongoose about this
                    since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
                    they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
                    like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
                    them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
                    fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
                    understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
                    understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
                    One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
                    publishers want to see.

                    Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
                    via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
                    people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
                    can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
                    cannot distribute it or host it.

                    Beaver
                    PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                    ________________________________

                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28 AM
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                    Derek J. Balling wrote:
                    > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                    > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                    > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                    > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                    > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                    I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have
                    been
                    hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                    Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes
                    but
                    they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                    players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask

                    about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly
                    but
                    in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they
                    say now.

                    So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                    Dave

                    NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                    almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before
                    being
                    hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a

                    character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                    excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been
                    a
                    conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is
                    always
                    nice to ask.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • Michael R. Beaver
                    Who refered to you as the guy ? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                      ________________________________

                      From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                      Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28 AM
                      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                      Derek J. Balling wrote:
                      > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                      > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                      > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                      > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                      > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                      I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have
                      been
                      hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                      Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes
                      but
                      they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                      players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask

                      about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly
                      but
                      in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they
                      say now.

                      So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                      Dave

                      NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                      almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before
                      being
                      hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a

                      character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                      excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been
                      a
                      conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is
                      always
                      nice to ask.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                      PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                      PCGen's FAQ:
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                    • notyetmousse24@aol.com
                      jthompson sez... I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                        jthompson sez...

                        'I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a
                        copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact him and see if
                        I can give out his email address if you contact me in private.'

                        In general it is considered smarter to offer such illegal help out of the
                        earshot (or eyeshot as the case may be) of a large group of witnesses and/or
                        where a standing record is kept.

                        NotMousse
                        TM, QA Tamarin, Made Emily Smirle laugh

                        I mean, if I can't even get a discount out of someone else's misfortune,
                        what's the point?
                        -MisterTambo, founding member of the League of Unemployed Gentlemen


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Finch
                        ... Well I don t know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;) Dave [Non-text
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                          > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                          Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
                          kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

                          Dave



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Finch
                          ... And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition everytime some on mension it? ... As expected, B5 is well supported having LST
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                            > OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
                            > copyrighted material.

                            And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition
                            everytime some on mension it?

                            > I have been talking with Mongoose about this
                            > since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
                            > they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
                            > like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
                            > them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
                            > fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
                            > understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
                            > understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
                            > One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
                            > publishers want to see.

                            As expected, B5 is well supported having LST files would help them sell
                            more books.

                            > Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
                            > via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
                            > people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
                            > can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
                            > cannot distribute it or host it.

                            And this is why I have not up to this point even mension it here, I think I
                            asked for help in the LSThelp files using 'codes' as is the normal way.
                            Even on the B5 list it is not avaiable to the public to download, only to
                            people that directly ask, which is kind of what MP asked me to do (BTW it
                            was over a year ago so I doubt that anyone would now remeber there).

                            I have been a bit busy on the personal life front so have not been working
                            very hard on the B5 LST files, if this got offical permission from MP you
                            can assume that our work will become avaiable and I would help out.

                            Dave



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Michael R. Beaver
                            Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference. ... From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM To:
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM
                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                              Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                              > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                              Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
                              kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

                              Dave



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            • David Finch
                              ... Oh IC, silly me :) BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial celebrations; Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day this
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                > Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

                                Oh IC, silly me :)

                                BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial
                                celebrations; "Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day" this weekend ;)

                                /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jonathan M. Thompson
                                What happens 5 November? Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com) jthompson@battlefieldpress.com / AIM -
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                  What happens 5 November?

                                  Jonathan M. Thompson
                                  President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                                  jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
                                  Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
                                  Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
                                  30, 2004


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                                  /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                                • Michael R. Beaver
                                  Guy Faulks day ... From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@battlefieldpress.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                    Guy Faulks day

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM
                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                    What happens 5 November?

                                    Jonathan M. Thompson
                                    President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                                    jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman Luftwaffe 1946 Role
                                    Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric Flint's 1632 Resource
                                    Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November 30, 2004


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                                    /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                                  • Lizard
                                    On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said.... ... Two words: Berne Convention. A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                      On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said....

                                      >You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                      >rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                      >distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                      >American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                      Two words: Berne Convention.

                                      A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                                      allows for cases to be brought where it is NOT, so, if Mongoose wanted to
                                      sue, they could do so in the UK or in the US, wherever it was more viable
                                      for them.
                                    • Nigel Bennington
                                      You should be aware that Fair Use is an American concept that most of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally distributed
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                        You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                        rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                        distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                        American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                        Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                        Derek J. Balling wrote:
                                        > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                                        > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                                        > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                                        > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                                        > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                                        I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                                        hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                                        Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                                        they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                                        players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                                        about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                                        in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                                        now.

                                        So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                                        Dave

                                        NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                                        almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                                        hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                                        character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                                        excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                                        conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                                        nice to ask.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                      • David Finch
                                        ... In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan they
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                          Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                          > Guy Faulks day
                                          >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                          >> What happens 5 November?
                                          >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                          >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                                          "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                                          Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                                          they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                          traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                                          an effigy of 'Guy'"

                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                                          It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                          large bonfire ;)

                                          (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                                          the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                                          Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                                          structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                                          in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                                          Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn t done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                            Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn't done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry VIII. I go into the arts (the poets and Shakespeare) but not the politics until just before 1776 (and even then just enough to know the king's name was George), and really pay attention again just prior to 1900, with the european naval arms race, and foundation of characters involved in and formation events leading up to WW1.

                                            But that's just me. . .

                                            Tir Gwaith
                                            LST Chimp
                                          • Steven Gilroy
                                            This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the olden days people used to ask for a penny for the Guy . This was a monetary donation
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                              This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the
                                              olden days people used to ask for "a penny for the Guy". This was a
                                              monetary donation to help create the effigy of Guy that would be burned
                                              on Guy Fawkes Night. Back in the 1800's and 1900's the church even
                                              tried to combine Halloween with Guy Fawkes Night because they viewed
                                              Halloween as to Pagan. That is one of the reasons that people actually
                                              dress up for Guy Fawkes Night too.
                                              (I'm not british but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn
                                              Express....err...I mean....I saw a special on the History Channel Sunday
                                              evening)

                                              David Finch wrote:

                                              >Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>Guy Faulks day
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>>Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                              >>>What happens 5 November?
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>>>David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                              >>>>/*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >
                                              >"In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                                              >Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                                              >they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                              >traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                                              >an effigy of 'Guy'"
                                              >
                                              >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night
                                              >
                                              >It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                              >large bonfire ;)
                                              >
                                              >(*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                                              >the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                                              >Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                                              >structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                                              >in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              --

                                              Steven Gilroy
                                              PCGen OS Lemur
                                              "In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Michael R. Beaver
                                              Penny for the Guy? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM To:
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                Penny for the Guy?

                                                ________________________________

                                                From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM
                                                To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Bonfire Night was [Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5]


                                                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                                > Guy Faulks day
                                                >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                                >> What happens 5 November?
                                                >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                                >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                                                "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up
                                                the
                                                Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan

                                                they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                                traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and
                                                burning
                                                an effigy of 'Guy'"

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                                                It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                                large bonfire ;)

                                                (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have
                                                killed
                                                the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the
                                                English
                                                Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English
                                                political
                                                structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it
                                                was
                                                in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Mike Mitchell
                                                On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver ... Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small change off people, then go and buy
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                  On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver
                                                  <michael@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Penny for the Guy?

                                                  Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small
                                                  change off people, then go and buy small explosives to play with.
                                                  Originally innocent fun, until the little gits started hurting
                                                  themselves with the fireworks, or putting them through people's doors
                                                  etc.

                                                  The "Guy" would be burnt on a bonfire during the fireworks - to
                                                  recreate the execution of the "heretic" Guy Fawkes after his failed
                                                  attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

                                                  --
                                                  "Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The
                                                  sleeper must awaken."
                                                • Ed Holley
                                                  It is also a concept required for software under Russian law. _____ From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@onlineguild.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                    It is also a concept required for software under Russian law.



                                                    _____

                                                    From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@...]
                                                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                                                    You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                                    rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                                    distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                                    American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                    Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                                    Derek J. Balling wrote:
                                                    > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                                                    > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                                                    > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                                                    > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                                                    > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                                                    I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                                                    hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                                                    Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                                                    they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                                                    players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                                                    about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                                                    in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                                                    now.

                                                    So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                                                    Dave

                                                    NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                                                    almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                                                    hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                                                    character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                                                    excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                                                    conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                                                    nice to ask.





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • David Finch
                                                    ... http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/ (1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                      Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                                      > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                                      > rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                                      > distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                                      > American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                      http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                                      *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works*
                                                      /Artical 10/

                                                      "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                                      already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                                      making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not exceed
                                                      that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles
                                                      and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                                      "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                                      Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                                      concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                                      shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                                      United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                                      The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                                      ...

                                                      I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and had
                                                      assumed that this was the generic term.

                                                      Dave



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Michael R. Beaver
                                                      OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take it over to: ogf-d20-l-bounces@opengamingfoundation.org This is a mailing list for
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                        OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take
                                                        it over to: "ogf-d20-l-bounces@..." This is a
                                                        mailing list for pcgen.....


                                                        Beaver
                                                        PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:21 AM
                                                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                                        Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                                        > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most
                                                        > of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an
                                                        > internationally distributed product, we need to abide by international

                                                        > copyright law, not American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                        http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                                        *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/

                                                        "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                                        already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                                        making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not
                                                        exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from
                                                        newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                                        "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                                        Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                                        concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                                        shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                                        United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                                        The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                                        ...

                                                        I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and
                                                        had assumed that this was the generic term.

                                                        Dave



                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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