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RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

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  • Paul W. King
    That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached both Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we have
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
      That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached both
      Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
      have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5 line.

      Paul W. King
      TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
      Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

      Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
      Babylon 5 RPG?
    • Jonathan M. Thompson
      I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact him and see if I
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
        I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I
        have a copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact
        him and see if I can give out his email address if you contact me in
        private.

        PS I am not endorsing any act that will violate any copyright,
        trademarks or licenses now in effect.

        Jonathan M. Thompson
        President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
        jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
        Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
        Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
        30, 2004


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Paul W. King [mailto:paulking.rhochi@...]
        Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:00 AM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


        That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached
        both
        Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
        have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5
        line.

        Paul W. King
        TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
        Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

        Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
        Babylon 5 RPG?





        PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
        PCGen's FAQ:
        http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/
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      • Derek J. Balling
        ... Except, of course, that you are by helping a copyright violation occur, facilitating a felony. Just thinking out loud. D [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
          On Oct 31, 2004, at 08:14 AM, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:

          > PS I am not endorsing any act that will violate any copyright,
          > trademarks or licenses now in effect.

          Except, of course, that you are by helping a copyright violation occur,
          facilitating a felony.

          Just thinking out loud.

          D



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jonathan M. Thompson
          I m not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they can do what they want when they get together. Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
            I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
            can do what they want when they get together.

            Jonathan M. Thompson
            President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
            jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
            Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
            Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
            30, 2004


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Derek J. Balling [mailto:groups@...]
            Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:42 AM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



            On Oct 31, 2004, at 08:14 AM, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:

            > PS I am not endorsing any act that will violate any copyright,
            > trademarks or licenses now in effect.

            Except, of course, that you are by helping a copyright violation occur,
            facilitating a felony.

            Just thinking out loud.

            D



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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          • jthompson@battlefieldpress.com
            ... Though however I see your point, and withdrawl my offer.
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Thompson" <jthompson@b...>
              wrote:
              > I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
              > can do what they want when they get together.

              Though however I see your point, and withdrawl my offer.

              > Jonathan M. Thompson
              > President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
              > jthompson@b... / AIM - GreyLnsman
              > Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
              > Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
              > 30, 2004
            • Derek J. Balling
              ... Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman. Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you... Doesn t really hold up as a defense in court,
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
                On Oct 31, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:
                > I'm not helping. I was just offering to put two people in touch, they
                > can do what they want when they get together.

                Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...

                Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)

                just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                Cheers,
                D



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chris McLaughlin
                Hi Paul, I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to include Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
                  Hi Paul,

                  I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to include
                  Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
                  Brothers.



                  I'll keep you up to date with developments as they happen.



                  Regards,

                  Chris



                  _____

                  From: Paul W. King [mailto:paulking.rhochi@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 11:00 p.m.
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                  That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached both
                  Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
                  have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5 line.

                  Paul W. King
                  TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
                  To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                  Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
                  Babylon 5 RPG?




                  PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                  PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                  PCGen's FAQ:
                  http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael R. Beaver
                  Chris, Contact me off list about this source. Beaver PCGen BoD - Chair/PL ( michael at tripleknot.com) ________________________________ From: Chris McLaughlin
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 31, 2004
                    Chris,

                    Contact me off list about this source.

                    Beaver
                    PCGen BoD - Chair/PL
                    ( michael at tripleknot.com)

                    ________________________________

                    From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:57 PM
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                    Hi Paul,

                    I have sent an email to Mongoose Publishing asking for permission to
                    include
                    Babylon 5 in PCGen and also asked about the IP aspect regarding Warner
                    Brothers.



                    I'll keep you up to date with developments as they happen.



                    Regards,

                    Chris



                    _____

                    From: Paul W. King [mailto:paulking.rhochi@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, 31 October 2004 11:00 p.m.
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                    That source is a licensed work. To my knowledge, no one has approached
                    both
                    Mongoose (the publisher) and Warner Brothers (the IP owner) to see if we
                    have permission to create/distribute datasets based on the Babylon 5
                    line.

                    Paul W. King
                    TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Chris McLaughlin [mailto:kilthar@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:50 AM
                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                    Has anyone tried/started developing LST files for Mongoose Publishing's
                    Babylon 5 RPG?




                    PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                    PCGen's FAQ:
                    http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
                    PCGen's alpha build: http://www.legolas.org/pcgen/autobuilds
                    PCGen's FAQ:
                    http://www.evilsoft.org/pcgen/docs/



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Finch
                    ... I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet. Basically I
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                      Derek J. Balling wrote:
                      > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                      > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                      > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                      > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                      > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                      I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                      hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                      Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                      they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                      players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                      about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                      in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say now.

                      So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                      Dave

                      NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                      almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                      hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                      character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                      excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                      conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                      nice to ask.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • notyetmousse24@aol.com
                      groups sez... Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman. Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you... Doesn t really hold up as a defense
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                        groups sez...

                        'Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                        Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...

                        Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually.'

                        Sure it does! I mean why would reffering your friend to a dealer in
                        obviously illegal services be considered bad?

                        'just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                        infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale...'

                        You might not, but I'm sure the MPAA and RIAA disagree with you.

                        NotMousse
                        TM, QA Tamarin, Made Emily Smirle laugh

                        I mean, if I can't even get a discount out of someone else's misfortune,
                        what's the point?
                        -MisterTambo, founding member of the League of Unemployed Gentlemen


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael R. Beaver
                        OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing copyrighted material. I have been talking with Mongoose about this since GAMA. They are
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                          OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
                          copyrighted material. I have been talking with Mongoose about this
                          since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
                          they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
                          like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
                          them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
                          fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
                          understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
                          understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
                          One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
                          publishers want to see.

                          Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
                          via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
                          people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
                          can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
                          cannot distribute it or host it.

                          Beaver
                          PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                          ________________________________

                          From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28 AM
                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                          Derek J. Balling wrote:
                          > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                          > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                          > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                          > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                          > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                          I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have
                          been
                          hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                          Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes
                          but
                          they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                          players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask

                          about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly
                          but
                          in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they
                          say now.

                          So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                          Dave

                          NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                          almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before
                          being
                          hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a

                          character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                          excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been
                          a
                          conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is
                          always
                          nice to ask.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael R. Beaver
                          Who refered to you as the guy ? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                            Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                            ________________________________

                            From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:28 AM
                            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                            Derek J. Balling wrote:
                            > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                            > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                            > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                            > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                            > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                            I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have
                            been
                            hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                            Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes
                            but
                            they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                            players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask

                            about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly
                            but
                            in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they
                            say now.

                            So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                            Dave

                            NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                            almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before
                            being
                            hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a

                            character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                            excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been
                            a
                            conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is
                            always
                            nice to ask.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • notyetmousse24@aol.com
                            jthompson sez... I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                              jthompson sez...

                              'I do know of someone that has written a lst file for Babylon 5, as I have a
                              copy for my home games (been testing it for him). I can contact him and see if
                              I can give out his email address if you contact me in private.'

                              In general it is considered smarter to offer such illegal help out of the
                              earshot (or eyeshot as the case may be) of a large group of witnesses and/or
                              where a standing record is kept.

                              NotMousse
                              TM, QA Tamarin, Made Emily Smirle laugh

                              I mean, if I can't even get a discount out of someone else's misfortune,
                              what's the point?
                              -MisterTambo, founding member of the League of Unemployed Gentlemen


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Finch
                              ... Well I don t know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;) Dave [Non-text
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                                Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
                                kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

                                Dave



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Finch
                                ... And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition everytime some on mension it? ... As expected, B5 is well supported having LST
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                  Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                  > OK all. So here is the thing. Yes we are twitchy about distributing
                                  > copyrighted material.

                                  And it is resnoble to me, just why does it have to become an inquisition
                                  everytime some on mension it?

                                  > I have been talking with Mongoose about this
                                  > since GAMA. They are interested and pursuing this with WB to see if
                                  > they will let us produce/distribute. I usually do not post information
                                  > like this until I have a more solid answer beyond "I am talkign to the
                                  > them about it." Part of the issue is that the publishers needed to be
                                  > fully educated on who PCGen is and what exactly we do. Once the
                                  > understanding of Open SOurce and how it relates to their PI was
                                  > understood it became alot easier to get permissions for book/sources.
                                  > One of the biggest challenges is getting people to code sources that
                                  > publishers want to see.

                                  As expected, B5 is well supported having LST files would help them sell
                                  more books.

                                  > Now the twitch is distribution. We CANNOT publically distribute files
                                  > via the site or the zip files that we do not have perms for. So if
                                  > people would like to make a set for B5 that I can show to Mongoose we
                                  > can do that. However without an email from them giving us permision we
                                  > cannot distribute it or host it.

                                  And this is why I have not up to this point even mension it here, I think I
                                  asked for help in the LSThelp files using 'codes' as is the normal way.
                                  Even on the B5 list it is not avaiable to the public to download, only to
                                  people that directly ask, which is kind of what MP asked me to do (BTW it
                                  was over a year ago so I doubt that anyone would now remeber there).

                                  I have been a bit busy on the personal life front so have not been working
                                  very hard on the B5 LST files, if this got offical permission from MP you
                                  can assume that our work will become avaiable and I would help out.

                                  Dave



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael R. Beaver
                                  Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference. ... From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM To:
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                    Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:49 AM
                                    To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                    Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                    > Who refered to you as "the guy"?

                                    Well I don't know may be Jonathan got a copy of B5 LST files from you, I
                                    kind of assume I had made them, but my memory can be flawed ;)

                                    Dave



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                  • David Finch
                                    ... Oh IC, silly me :) BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial celebrations; Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day this
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                      Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                      > Heh. I meant the Nov. 5th reference.

                                      Oh IC, silly me :)

                                      BTW as it is traditionally on the Usenet to upset everyone with provincial
                                      celebrations; "Have a Happy and Safe Bonfire Day" this weekend ;)

                                      /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jonathan M. Thompson
                                      What happens 5 November? Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com) jthompson@battlefieldpress.com / AIM -
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                        What happens 5 November?

                                        Jonathan M. Thompson
                                        President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                                        jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
                                        Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric
                                        Flint's 1632 Resource Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November
                                        30, 2004


                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                                        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                                        /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                                      • Michael R. Beaver
                                        Guy Faulks day ... From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@battlefieldpress.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                          Guy Faulks day

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...]
                                          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:48 PM
                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                          What happens 5 November?

                                          Jonathan M. Thompson
                                          President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
                                          jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman Luftwaffe 1946 Role
                                          Playing Game - Available now at RPGNow.com; Eric Flint's 1632 Resource
                                          Guide and Role Playing Game - Available November 30, 2004


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:40 AM
                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5

                                          /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/



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                                        • Lizard
                                          On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said.... ... Two words: Berne Convention. A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                            On 08:57 PM 11/1/2004, Nigel Bennington said....

                                            >You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                            >rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                            >distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                            >American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                            Two words: Berne Convention.

                                            A whole lot more words: Even if use is legal elsewhere, international law
                                            allows for cases to be brought where it is NOT, so, if Mongoose wanted to
                                            sue, they could do so in the UK or in the US, wherever it was more viable
                                            for them.
                                          • Nigel Bennington
                                            You should be aware that Fair Use is an American concept that most of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally distributed
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 1, 2004
                                              You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                              rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                              distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                              American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                              Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                              Derek J. Balling wrote:
                                              > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                                              > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                                              > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                                              > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                                              > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                                              I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                                              hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                                              Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                                              they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                                              players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                                              about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                                              in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                                              now.

                                              So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                                              Dave

                                              NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                                              almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                                              hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                                              character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                                              excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                                              conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                                              nice to ask.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                              PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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                                            • David Finch
                                              ... In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan they
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                                > Guy Faulks day
                                                >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                                >> What happens 5 November?
                                                >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                                >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                                                "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                                                Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                                                they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                                traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                                                an effigy of 'Guy'"

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                                                It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                                large bonfire ;)

                                                (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                                                the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                                                Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                                                structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                                                in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • thoron-tir-gwaith@lycos.com
                                                Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn t done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                  Thanks for the history lesson, David. This Texan hasn't done near enough study on english government... I normally stop paying attention just after Henry VIII. I go into the arts (the poets and Shakespeare) but not the politics until just before 1776 (and even then just enough to know the king's name was George), and really pay attention again just prior to 1900, with the european naval arms race, and foundation of characters involved in and formation events leading up to WW1.

                                                  But that's just me. . .

                                                  Tir Gwaith
                                                  LST Chimp
                                                • Steven Gilroy
                                                  This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the olden days people used to ask for a penny for the Guy . This was a monetary donation
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                    This is also one of the roots of American Trick or Treat. Back in the
                                                    olden days people used to ask for "a penny for the Guy". This was a
                                                    monetary donation to help create the effigy of Guy that would be burned
                                                    on Guy Fawkes Night. Back in the 1800's and 1900's the church even
                                                    tried to combine Halloween with Guy Fawkes Night because they viewed
                                                    Halloween as to Pagan. That is one of the reasons that people actually
                                                    dress up for Guy Fawkes Night too.
                                                    (I'm not british but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn
                                                    Express....err...I mean....I saw a special on the History Channel Sunday
                                                    evening)

                                                    David Finch wrote:

                                                    >Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >>Guy Faulks day
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>>Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                                    >>>What happens 5 November?
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>>David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                                    >>>>/*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >
                                                    >"In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the
                                                    >Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan
                                                    >they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                                    >traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning
                                                    >an effigy of 'Guy'"
                                                    >
                                                    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night
                                                    >
                                                    >It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                                    >large bonfire ;)
                                                    >
                                                    >(*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have killed
                                                    >the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the English
                                                    >Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English political
                                                    >structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it was
                                                    >in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    --

                                                    Steven Gilroy
                                                    PCGen OS Lemur
                                                    "In a world without fences, who needs GATES?"



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Michael R. Beaver
                                                    Penny for the Guy? ________________________________ From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@ipasystems.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM To:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                      Penny for the Guy?

                                                      ________________________________

                                                      From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:44 AM
                                                      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Bonfire Night was [Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5]


                                                      Michael R. Beaver wrote:
                                                      > Guy Faulks day
                                                      >> Jonathan M. Thompson [mailto:jthompson@...] wrote:
                                                      >> What happens 5 November?
                                                      >>> David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...] wrote:
                                                      >>> /*Remember*, *Remember*, The Fifth of November!/

                                                      "In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up
                                                      the
                                                      Houses of Parliament (*1). Before they were able to carry out their plan

                                                      they were caught, tortured and executed. Every year since then we have
                                                      traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and
                                                      burning
                                                      an effigy of 'Guy'"

                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

                                                      It is now just an excuse now for an outside party with Fireworks and a
                                                      large bonfire ;)

                                                      (*1) Note that this was at the State Opening; hence they would have
                                                      killed
                                                      the Executive, Legistive, Judicial and Military 'Branches' of the
                                                      English
                                                      Government. Their intension was to destroy the top of the English
                                                      political
                                                      structure to allow a Catholic take over. It failed, some think that it
                                                      was
                                                      in fact a setup to catch the insurgents.



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Mike Mitchell
                                                      On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver ... Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small change off people, then go and buy
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                        On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:13:10 -0800, Michael R. Beaver
                                                        <michael@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Penny for the Guy?

                                                        Children make a mannequin figure, trundle it about, begging small
                                                        change off people, then go and buy small explosives to play with.
                                                        Originally innocent fun, until the little gits started hurting
                                                        themselves with the fireworks, or putting them through people's doors
                                                        etc.

                                                        The "Guy" would be burnt on a bonfire during the fireworks - to
                                                        recreate the execution of the "heretic" Guy Fawkes after his failed
                                                        attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

                                                        --
                                                        "Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The
                                                        sleeper must awaken."
                                                      • Ed Holley
                                                        It is also a concept required for software under Russian law. _____ From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@onlineguild.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                          It is also a concept required for software under Russian law.



                                                          _____

                                                          From: Nigel Bennington [mailto:nigel@...]
                                                          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 20:57
                                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: RE: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5



                                                          You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                                          rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                                          distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                                          American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                          Sent: 01 November 2004 10:28
                                                          To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                                          Derek J. Balling wrote:
                                                          > Person1: Gosh I could really use a hitman.
                                                          > Person2: Hey, I know this friend of mine, let me introduce you...
                                                          > Doesn't really hold up as a defense in court, usually. ;-)
                                                          > just thinking out loud, though, not (at all) comparing "copyright
                                                          > infraction" to "hiring a hitman" on the badness scale... ;-)

                                                          I am sitting here wondering what I should say ... it seam that I have been
                                                          hung drawn and quatered, and it is not even the 5th of November yet.

                                                          Basically I did ask permission before I started. And Mongoose said yes but
                                                          they did not want them distrubuted in PCgen. But they did say that B5
                                                          players can use them via the B5 emaillist on Yahoo Groups. I did not ask
                                                          about the WB stuff as Mongoose did not want them distrubuted directly but
                                                          in a fan way. That was one year ago, things change, lets see what they say
                                                          now.

                                                          So if you want a copy join the B5 maillist and ask me there.

                                                          Dave

                                                          NB - I think that this group has become very uptight about copyright,
                                                          almost like a child that has been beaten to often, it flinches before being
                                                          hit. IANAL, there is such a thing as "fair use", use of data to create a
                                                          character is fair use from a RPG. If the licence from WB to Mongoose
                                                          excludes use of their IP in computers games then I could see there been a
                                                          conflict but other wise I can't see why they would object, but it is always
                                                          nice to ask.





                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • David Finch
                                                          ... http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/ (1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                            Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                                            > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most of the
                                                            > rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an internationally
                                                            > distributed product, we need to abide by international copyright law, not
                                                            > American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                            http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                                            *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works*
                                                            /Artical 10/

                                                            "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                                            already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                                            making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not exceed
                                                            that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles
                                                            and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                                            "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                                            Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                                            concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                                            shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                                            United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                                            The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                                            ...

                                                            I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and had
                                                            assumed that this was the generic term.

                                                            Dave



                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Michael R. Beaver
                                                            OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take it over to: ogf-d20-l-bounces@opengamingfoundation.org This is a mailing list for
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Nov 2, 2004
                                                              OK all. This thread is DONE. If you want to discuss it further take
                                                              it over to: "ogf-d20-l-bounces@..." This is a
                                                              mailing list for pcgen.....


                                                              Beaver
                                                              PCGen BoD - Chair/PL

                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                              From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
                                                              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:21 AM
                                                              To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: Re: [pcgen] Mongoose Publishing: Babylon 5


                                                              Nigel Bennington wrote:
                                                              > You should be aware that "Fair Use" is an American concept that most
                                                              > of the rest of the world does not share, since PCGEN is an
                                                              > internationally distributed product, we need to abide by international

                                                              > copyright law, not American, so "Fair Use" does not come into play.

                                                              http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm
                                                              *The Berne Convention on Literary and Artistic Works* /Artical 10/

                                                              "(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has
                                                              already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their
                                                              making is compatible with /fair practice/, and their extent does not
                                                              exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from
                                                              newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries."

                                                              "Fair Use" (US) = "Fair Practice", the definitions of what is "Fair
                                                              Practice" change from county to county but not the concept itself. This
                                                              concept has been stretch in many places to include for example 'time
                                                              shifted' copies of broadcasted copyright information.

                                                              United States = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
                                                              The Commonwealth = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing
                                                              ...

                                                              I agree that I was not being specific enough when I used "Fair Use" and
                                                              had assumed that this was the generic term.

                                                              Dave



                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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