Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [pcgen] OT: What's a carriage return

Expand Messages
  • Keith Davies
    ... To complicate things... MS-DOS/Windows EOL: CRLF (0x0d, 0x0a) UNIX EOL : LF (0x0a) Mac EOL (IIRC) : CR (0x0d) Many (most?) text-based network
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 04:20:35PM -0500, mtucker@... wrote:
      > > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
      > >
      > > Paul G.
      >
      > Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).
      >
      > Google. ;-)

      To complicate things...

      MS-DOS/Windows EOL: CRLF (0x0d, 0x0a)
      UNIX EOL : LF (0x0a)
      Mac EOL (IIRC) : CR (0x0d)
      Many (most?) text-based network protocols EOL: CRLF( 0x0d, 0x0a)
      IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
      unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
      this by a mainframer.


      Keith
      --
      Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
      keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
      keith.davies@... me: "What do you say?"
      Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
    • Ed Holley
      PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be modified to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I haven t tried
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be modified
        to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I
        haven't tried to do this yet.





        Ed Holley
        A+
        System Admin
        (I don't send Office Docs with macros
        unless they are noted in the body of
        the message)



        _____

        From: mtucker@... [mailto:mtucker@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:21 PM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [pcgen] OT: What's a carriage return


        > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
        >
        > Paul G.

        Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).

        Google. ;-)

        Michael


        PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
        PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
        PCGen's FAQ:
        http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/current/_docs/



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

        ADVERTISEMENT

        <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1297voe61/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=gr
        oups/S=1705016061:HM/EXP=1094160063/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http://www.
        netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298> click here

        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=
        :HM/A=2319501/rand=972541743>

        _____

        Yahoo! Groups Links


        * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen/


        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


        * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • merton_monk
        Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You ll also see it as n. When
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of
          control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You'll also
          see it as \n. When you move from OS to OS a lot like I do, these
          kinds of things get seared into your memory... :)

          I can even remember the code to open a file in apple-basic (at it was
          not at all intuitive or documented anywhere that I saw! You simply saw
          what someone else in another program did to open a file...)

          -Bryan

          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Holley" <eholley@c...> wrote:
          > PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be
          modified
          > to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I
          > haven't tried to do this yet.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Ed Holley
          > A+
          > System Admin
          > (I don't send Office Docs with macros
          > unless they are noted in the body of
          > the message)
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: mtucker@a... [mailto:mtucker@a...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:21 PM
          > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [pcgen] OT: What's a carriage return
          >
          >
          > > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
          > >
          > > Paul G.
          >
          > Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).
          >
          > Google. ;-)
          >
          > Michael
          >
          >
          > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
          > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
          > PCGen's FAQ:
          > http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/current/_docs/
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1297voe61/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=gr
          >
          oups/S=1705016061:HM/EXP=1094160063/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http://www.
          > netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298> click here
          >
          >
          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=
          > :HM/A=2319501/rand=972541743>
          >
          > _____
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen/
          >
          >
          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:pcgen-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          >
          >
          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brass Tilde
          ... Well, it s true, isn t it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of thousands of records...
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            > IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
            > unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
            > this by a mainframer.

            Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of
            thousands of records...
          • Kevin Brown
            ... And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record to get it to fill up the alloted space...
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >>IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
              >> unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
              >> this by a mainframer.
              >
              >
              > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of
              > thousands of records...

              And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record to get it to fill up
              the alloted space...
            • Keith Davies
              ... That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa. Actually, there was a time that that sort of space would actually be significant. My belief in the silliness of
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 06:17:43PM -0400, Brass Tilde wrote:
                > > IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
                > > unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
                > > this by a mainframer.
                >
                > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over
                > hundreds of thousands of records...

                That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa.

                Actually, there was a time that that sort of space would actually be
                significant. My belief in the silliness of that statement, though, was
                that fixed-width records chew up a *lot* of space for the padding
                (record and field, depending on what you're working with).

                A more compelling argument that 'this is good' might have been that
                parsing and processing fixed-width records is much, much faster because
                you can

                . use random access techniques to process records (an index can point
                directly to the correct record number and that can be pulled easily;
                efficient sort routines and the like can be used, and once sorted,
                efficient seek techniques can be used).
                . parsing is dead easy because there's bugger all decision making to be
                done. "This field is bytes 18..39 of the record" is much easier to
                work with than "this field is the third field in the delimited record"

                I use fixed-width a fair amount myself -- my current contract depends on
                it, in fact -- but I don't try to kid myself that it 'saves space'.


                Keith
                --
                Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
                keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
                keith.davies@... me: "What do you say?"
                Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
              • Brass Tilde
                ... Even more reason not to waste it on unneeded record delimiters...:-)
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  > > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte
                  > > over hundreds of thousands of records...
                  >
                  > And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record
                  > to get it to fill up the alloted space...

                  Even more reason not to waste it on unneeded record delimiters...:-)
                • ovka
                  ... I actually found it in a book when I was learning to program in apple basic (chr$(4) or ^D for those who were wondering). As you said, things like that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "merton_monk" <merton_monk@y...> wrote:
                    >Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of
                    >control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You'll also
                    >see it as \n. When you move from OS to OS a lot like I do, these
                    >kinds of things get seared into your memory... :)
                    >
                    >I can even remember the code to open a file in apple-basic (at it was
                    >not at all intuitive or documented anywhere that I saw! You simply
                    >saw
                    >what someone else in another program did to open a file...)

                    I actually found it in a book when I was learning to program in apple
                    basic (chr$(4) or ^D for those who were wondering). As you said,
                    things like that get seared into your memory. I still remember using
                    chr$(7) or ^G to make the apple beep to alert the user of certain
                    conditions.

                    My first thought when the original question was posted was "ASCII or
                    EBCDIC?" EBCDIC (which I may have spelled incorrectly) is used on
                    IBM mainframes. As someone else already pointed out, carraige
                    returns and line feeds are not needed because of record blocking.
                    When you have a file with 10M records, that can save a lot of space.)

                    And don't get me started on UNIX....

                    Have I just dated myself too much?

                    Cheers,

                    Sir George Anonymous
                  • Brass Tilde
                    ... OK, maybe I was too subtle. Tongue planted firmly in cheek. ... Especially with COBOL, in which a fair amount of that business type logic was written. ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over
                      > > hundreds of thousands of records...
                      >
                      > That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa.

                      OK, maybe I was too subtle.

                      Tongue planted firmly in cheek.

                      > A more compelling argument that 'this is good' might have been that
                      > parsing and processing fixed-width records is much, much
                      > faster because you can
                      >

                      Especially with COBOL, in which a fair amount of that business type logic
                      was written.

                      > I use fixed-width a fair amount myself -- my current contract
                      > depends on it, in fact -- but I don't try to kid myself that it
                      > 'saves space'.

                      So do I. Almost all of our output feeds are fixed length.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.