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OT: What's a carriage return

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  • Paul Grosse
    Quick question, what s a carriage return in Hexadecimal? Paul G.
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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      Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?

      Paul G.
    • mtucker@airmail.net
      ... Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D). Google. ;-) Michael
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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        > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
        >
        > Paul G.

        Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).

        Google. ;-)

        Michael
      • Keith Davies
        ... To complicate things... MS-DOS/Windows EOL: CRLF (0x0d, 0x0a) UNIX EOL : LF (0x0a) Mac EOL (IIRC) : CR (0x0d) Many (most?) text-based network
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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          On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 04:20:35PM -0500, mtucker@... wrote:
          > > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
          > >
          > > Paul G.
          >
          > Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).
          >
          > Google. ;-)

          To complicate things...

          MS-DOS/Windows EOL: CRLF (0x0d, 0x0a)
          UNIX EOL : LF (0x0a)
          Mac EOL (IIRC) : CR (0x0d)
          Many (most?) text-based network protocols EOL: CRLF( 0x0d, 0x0a)
          IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
          unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
          this by a mainframer.


          Keith
          --
          Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
          keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
          keith.davies@... me: "What do you say?"
          Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
        • Ed Holley
          PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be modified to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I haven t tried
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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            PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be modified
            to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I
            haven't tried to do this yet.





            Ed Holley
            A+
            System Admin
            (I don't send Office Docs with macros
            unless they are noted in the body of
            the message)



            _____

            From: mtucker@... [mailto:mtucker@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:21 PM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] OT: What's a carriage return


            > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
            >
            > Paul G.

            Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).

            Google. ;-)

            Michael


            PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
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          • merton_monk
            Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You ll also see it as n. When
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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              Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of
              control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You'll also
              see it as \n. When you move from OS to OS a lot like I do, these
              kinds of things get seared into your memory... :)

              I can even remember the code to open a file in apple-basic (at it was
              not at all intuitive or documented anywhere that I saw! You simply saw
              what someone else in another program did to open a file...)

              -Bryan

              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Holley" <eholley@c...> wrote:
              > PSPad a free text editor includes these as a tool :-). It can be
              modified
              > to highlight syntax, should be able to be worked up for .lst files. I
              > haven't tried to do this yet.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ed Holley
              > A+
              > System Admin
              > (I don't send Office Docs with macros
              > unless they are noted in the body of
              > the message)
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: mtucker@a... [mailto:mtucker@a...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:21 PM
              > To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [pcgen] OT: What's a carriage return
              >
              >
              > > Quick question, what's a carriage return in Hexadecimal?
              > >
              > > Paul G.
              >
              > Line feed is ascii 10 (hex 0A). Carriage return is ascii 13 (hex 0D).
              >
              > Google. ;-)
              >
              > Michael
              >
              >
              > PCGen's release site: http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
              > PCGen's alpha build: http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen
              > PCGen's FAQ:
              > http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/current/_docs/
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > ADVERTISEMENT
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              >
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              >
              oups/S=1705016061:HM/EXP=1094160063/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http://www.
              > netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298> click here
              >
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            • Brass Tilde
              ... Well, it s true, isn t it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of thousands of records...
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                > IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
                > unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
                > this by a mainframer.

                Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of
                thousands of records...
              • Kevin Brown
                ... And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record to get it to fill up the alloted space...
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                  >>IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
                  >> unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
                  >> this by a mainframer.
                  >
                  >
                  > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over hundreds of
                  > thousands of records...

                  And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record to get it to fill up
                  the alloted space...
                • Keith Davies
                  ... That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa. Actually, there was a time that that sort of space would actually be significant. My belief in the silliness of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                    On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 06:17:43PM -0400, Brass Tilde wrote:
                    > > IBM Mainframe : "Fixed-length records mean EOL is redundant and an
                    > > unnecessary waste of file store"... yes, I was told
                    > > this by a mainframer.
                    >
                    > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over
                    > hundreds of thousands of records...

                    That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa.

                    Actually, there was a time that that sort of space would actually be
                    significant. My belief in the silliness of that statement, though, was
                    that fixed-width records chew up a *lot* of space for the padding
                    (record and field, depending on what you're working with).

                    A more compelling argument that 'this is good' might have been that
                    parsing and processing fixed-width records is much, much faster because
                    you can

                    . use random access techniques to process records (an index can point
                    directly to the correct record number and that can be pulled easily;
                    efficient sort routines and the like can be used, and once sorted,
                    efficient seek techniques can be used).
                    . parsing is dead easy because there's bugger all decision making to be
                    done. "This field is bytes 18..39 of the record" is much easier to
                    work with than "this field is the third field in the delimited record"

                    I use fixed-width a fair amount myself -- my current contract depends on
                    it, in fact -- but I don't try to kid myself that it 'saves space'.


                    Keith
                    --
                    Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
                    keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
                    keith.davies@... me: "What do you say?"
                    Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
                  • Brass Tilde
                    ... Even more reason not to waste it on unneeded record delimiters...:-)
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                      > > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte
                      > > over hundreds of thousands of records...
                      >
                      > And how many bytes are wasted when you have to pad a record
                      > to get it to fill up the alloted space...

                      Even more reason not to waste it on unneeded record delimiters...:-)
                    • ovka
                      ... I actually found it in a book when I was learning to program in apple basic (chr$(4) or ^D for those who were wondering). As you said, things like that
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "merton_monk" <merton_monk@y...> wrote:
                        >Many times you can see carriage-returns as ^M, which is the symbol of
                        >control-M. M being the 13th letter... hence 13 in hex. You'll also
                        >see it as \n. When you move from OS to OS a lot like I do, these
                        >kinds of things get seared into your memory... :)
                        >
                        >I can even remember the code to open a file in apple-basic (at it was
                        >not at all intuitive or documented anywhere that I saw! You simply
                        >saw
                        >what someone else in another program did to open a file...)

                        I actually found it in a book when I was learning to program in apple
                        basic (chr$(4) or ^D for those who were wondering). As you said,
                        things like that get seared into your memory. I still remember using
                        chr$(7) or ^G to make the apple beep to alert the user of certain
                        conditions.

                        My first thought when the original question was posted was "ASCII or
                        EBCDIC?" EBCDIC (which I may have spelled incorrectly) is used on
                        IBM mainframes. As someone else already pointed out, carraige
                        returns and line feeds are not needed because of record blocking.
                        When you have a file with 10M records, that can save a lot of space.)

                        And don't get me started on UNIX....

                        Have I just dated myself too much?

                        Cheers,

                        Sir George Anonymous
                      • Brass Tilde
                        ... OK, maybe I was too subtle. Tongue planted firmly in cheek. ... Especially with COBOL, in which a fair amount of that business type logic was written. ...
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                          > > Well, it's true, isn't it? When you add up even one byte over
                          > > hundreds of thousands of records...
                          >
                          > That would be... hundreds of *k*. Whoa.

                          OK, maybe I was too subtle.

                          Tongue planted firmly in cheek.

                          > A more compelling argument that 'this is good' might have been that
                          > parsing and processing fixed-width records is much, much
                          > faster because you can
                          >

                          Especially with COBOL, in which a fair amount of that business type logic
                          was written.

                          > I use fixed-width a fair amount myself -- my current contract
                          > depends on it, in fact -- but I don't try to kid myself that it
                          > 'saves space'.

                          So do I. Almost all of our output feeds are fixed length.
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