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Re: [pcgen] [tracker enetered] Re: [OS] 5.6.1 Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp b

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  • Eddy Anthony
    D oh I even checked to see that it hadn t been done and waited a few minutes. ... -- ~ Eddy ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
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      D'oh
      I even checked to see that it hadn't been done and waited a few minutes.

      On 7/2/04 9:11 AM, "Paul W. King" <paulking.rhochi@...> wrote:

      >> Here you go:
      >> [ 984045 ] [5.6.1] Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp
      >> bonus
      >>
      >> Eddy
      >> Tracker monkey in training
      >
      > *chuckle*
      >
      > It appears that you and I entered ours at about the same time...you
      > just seconds ahead of me.
      >
      > Paul W. King
      > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

      --
      ~ Eddy
      ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
      ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
    • Chuck Pint
      ... I ll double check but it should. ... That s all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in all 10 s for the base scores, and the real
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
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        > Great to hear that. Does psionics work in 5.6.1 than? It works in 5.7.1
        > but I think it's part of PCGen. The OS are nearly the same between
        > those versions.
        >

        I'll double check but it should.

        > > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the fact that
        > > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the column that
        > > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are looking
        > > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
        > > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to right.
        > > Any comments?
        >
        > I would leave it as it is.
        > BASE ABILITY TEMP
        > Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
        > It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
        > values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
        > normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
        > So that I can see the progression.
        >
        > Marc

        That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
        all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
        "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
      • mtucker@airmail.net
        ... Actually, that s the situation for any character who has a template that alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column is just your
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
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          >> > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the fact that
          >> > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the column that
          >> > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are looking
          >> > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
          >> > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to right.
          >> > Any comments?
          >>
          >> I would leave it as it is.
          >> BASE ABILITY TEMP
          >> Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
          >> It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
          >> values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
          >> normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
          >> So that I can see the progression.
          >>
          >> Marc
          >
          > That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
          > all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
          > "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
          >

          Actually, that's the situation for any character who has a template that
          alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column is just
          your "raw" ability scores (including normal racial modes, e.g. Elf, but
          not including the racial template). The ABILITY column is your "net"
          ability scores, including any equipment modifiers (e.g. Gloves of
          Dexterity).

          So, for a Half-Celestial character wearing Gloves of Dexterity, *neither*
          column actually shows you your "normal" unmodified ability scores.
          Sub-optimal and confusing, to say the least.

          It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to templates.
          That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of "true"
          *smile*).

          Michael
        • Chuck Pint
          ... fact that ... column that ... looking ... right. ... is just ... *neither* ... I did some more checking into this, and it s confusing to say the least.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 5, 2004
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            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, mtucker@a... wrote:
            > >> > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the
            fact that
            > >> > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the
            column that
            > >> > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are
            looking
            > >> > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
            > >> > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to
            right.
            > >> > Any comments?
            > >>
            > >> I would leave it as it is.
            > >> BASE ABILITY TEMP
            > >> Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
            > >> It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
            > >> values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
            > >> normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
            > >> So that I can see the progression.
            > >>
            > >> Marc
            > >
            > > That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
            > > all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
            > > "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
            > >
            >
            > Actually, that's the situation for any character who has a template that
            > alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column
            is just
            > your "raw" ability scores (including normal racial modes, e.g. Elf, but
            > not including the racial template). The ABILITY column is your "net"
            > ability scores, including any equipment modifiers (e.g. Gloves of
            > Dexterity).
            >
            > So, for a Half-Celestial character wearing Gloves of Dexterity,
            *neither*
            > column actually shows you your "normal" unmodified ability scores.
            > Sub-optimal and confusing, to say the least.
            >
            > It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to templates.
            > That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of "true"
            > *smile*).
            >
            > Michael

            I did some more checking into this, and it's confusing to say the
            least. Just for fun(?) I created a Gnome Cleric2-Barbarian3. Started
            off with all 10's for stats. So Gnome gives a -2 to Strength. At
            fourth level I gave him a bonus in Strength. Then I bumped his
            Strength by +1. Then I added a Belt of Giant Strength +4. Then I added
            via a temporary bonus (Bull's Strength) of +2. Here are the results
            for Strength:
            BASE 11
            BASEMOD +2
            NOEQUIP 11
            MOD.NOEQUIP +0
            NOTEMP 13
            MOD.NOTEMP +1
            NOEQUIP.NOTEMP 9
            MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP -1
            NOPOST 15
            MOD.NOPOST +2
            (none) 15
            MOD +2

            Note that many of these are wrong. BASEMOD should not be +2, it should
            be +0. BASE (if I understand the docs) should be 10. NOTEMP is
            undocumented, but since it's in the xlst sheets (see BASE.XML), I
            thought I'd try it. NOPOST does not seem to do anything at all.
            Actually I don't understand how NOPOST could work in the first place.
            It seems that the level boost to Strength is exactly the same as the
            manual boost to Strength that I did at 5th level (both are
            "POSTSTAT:STR=1").

            Then just for more fun, I added the Half-Celestial Template on the
            Race tab. No other changes from all that above. That added +4 to
            Strength. Here are the results:

            BASE 11
            BASEMOD +4
            NOEQUIP 15
            MOD.NOEQUIP +2
            NOTEMP 17
            MOD.NOTEMP +3
            NOEQUIP.NOTEMP 13
            MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP +1
            NOPOST 19
            MOD.NOPOST +4
            (none) 19
            MOD +4

            BASE and BASEMOD are still quite wrong. NOPOST still does not seem to
            do anything. NOTEMP seems to only remove stat changes that are added
            from the Temporary Bonuses tab.

            So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
            following:

            BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
            BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
            ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
            ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
            TEMP SCOREs => (none)
            TEMP MODs => MOD

            This will show (in order from left to right):
            BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
            and racial templates modifications in place

            ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment equipped.

            TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary Bonuses.

            I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
            Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
            questions?

            Chuck
          • Michael
            [mass amounts of detailed analysis chopped] ... equipped. ... Bonuses. ... My only comment is: Wow! You rock. I can t wait to see the results! ... m.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
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              [mass amounts of detailed analysis chopped]

              > So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
              > following:
              >
              > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
              > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
              > ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
              > ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
              > TEMP SCOREs => (none)
              > TEMP MODs => MOD
              >
              > This will show (in order from left to right):
              > BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
              > and racial templates modifications in place
              >
              > ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment
              equipped.
              >
              > TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary
              Bonuses.
              >
              > I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
              > Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
              > questions?
              >
              > Chuck

              My only comment is: Wow! You rock.

              I can't wait to see the results!

              ---
              m.
            • Chuck Pint
              ... No need to wait. I ve checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet is to be able to
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                >
                > I can't wait to see the results!
                >
                > ---
                > m.

                No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet
                is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                showing the temporary bonuses.

                The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.

                Chuck
              • Michael Tucker
                ... Chuck, you absolutely rock! Thanks for taking the time to figure this out, and even more for fixing it. :-) Michael
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
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                  On Jul 5, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Chuck Pint wrote:

                  >> (snip)
                  >> It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to
                  >> templates.
                  >> That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of
                  >> "true"
                  >> *smile*).
                  >>
                  >> Michael
                  >
                  > I did some more checking into this, and it's confusing to say the
                  > least. (snip)
                  >
                  > So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
                  > following:
                  >
                  > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                  > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                  > ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
                  > ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
                  > TEMP SCOREs => (none)
                  > TEMP MODs => MOD
                  >
                  > This will show (in order from left to right):
                  > BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
                  > and racial templates modifications in place
                  >
                  > ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment equipped.
                  >
                  > TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary Bonuses.
                  >
                  > I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
                  > Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
                  > questions?
                  >
                  > Chuck
                  >

                  Chuck, you absolutely rock! Thanks for taking the time to figure this
                  out, and even more for fixing it. :-)

                  Michael
                • God
                  ... That s great. When will you do the PDF sheets? Marc
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 7, 2004
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                    > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                    > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet
                    > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                    > showing the temporary bonuses.
                    >
                    > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                    > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                    > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.

                    That's great. When will you do the PDF sheets?

                    Marc
                  • Reed Thornton
                    ... sheet ... Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now? Reed QA Chimp, BoD
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 9, 2004
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                      > > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                      > >
                      > > I can't wait to see the results!
                      > >
                      > > ---
                      > > m.
                      >
                      > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                      > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that
                      sheet
                      > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                      > showing the temporary bonuses.
                      >
                      > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                      > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                      > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.
                      >
                      > Chuck

                      Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now?

                      Reed
                      QA Chimp, BoD
                    • Chuck Pint
                      ... I would guess so. I ve committed the changes so it should be there. With the alpha build page down, you would have to get it directly from sourceforge. I
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 9, 2004
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Reed Thornton" <rthornton13@c...> wrote:
                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                        > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                        > > > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                        > > >
                        > > > I can't wait to see the results!
                        > > >
                        > > > ---
                        > > > m.
                        > >
                        > > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                        > > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that
                        > sheet
                        > > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                        > > showing the temporary bonuses.
                        > >
                        > > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                        > > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                        > > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.
                        > >
                        > > Chuck
                        >
                        > Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now?
                        >
                        > Reed
                        > QA Chimp, BoD

                        I would guess so. I've committed the changes so it should be there.
                        With the alpha build page down, you would have to get it directly from
                        sourceforge. I could post it somewhere, but I'm not sure that's a good
                        idea. However, anyone that would like to email me for the new version
                        may do so. I would be happy to send it out that way. Just let me know
                        if you want it zipped, tarred or what. The massive amount of
                        JavaScript triggers way too many anti-spam filters.

                        Chuck
                        OS Gibbon
                      • Chuck Pint
                        ... I m making these changes to the OS now. By accident, I found that changing to NOTEMP.NOEQUIP does something completely different (and wrong) from listing
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 13, 2004
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                          > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                          > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP

                          I'm making these changes to the OS now. By accident, I found that
                          changing to NOTEMP.NOEQUIP does something completely different (and
                          wrong) from listing it in the other order. Maybe it's nothing, but
                          could a code monkey take a look at it?

                          Chuck
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