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Re: [pcgen] Re: [OS] 5.6.1 Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp bonus

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  • Eddy Anthony
    Here you go: [ 984045 ] [5.6.1] Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp bonus Eddy Tracker monkey in training ... -- ~ Eddy ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin ~
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
      Here you go:
      [ 984045 ] [5.6.1] Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp bonus

      Eddy
      Tracker monkey in training

      On 7/2/04 7:59 AM, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@...> wrote:

      > If some tracker monkey would please be so kind to enter this as a FREQ
      > under output sheets and assign it to me (chuckpint), then I'll get it
      > taken care of. The Std sheet is under heavy editing right now, I hope
      > to have it up to speed in the next couple of weeks.
      >
      > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the fact that
      > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the column that
      > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are looking
      > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
      > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to right.
      > Any comments?
      >
      > Chuck
      >
      >
      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
      >> The HTML output sheets also produces messed up abilities columns.
      >>
      >> specifically csheet_fantasy_std.htm and csheet_fantasy_compact.htm
      >>
      >> In this sheet there are 2 sets of abilities, not 3 like there are in
      >> the PDF. The temporary score and mods columns look fine, but the
      >> original scores are messed up.
      >>
      >> without temp bonuses I see this:
      >> STR: 14/+2 14/+2
      >> DEX: 17/+3 17/+3
      >>
      >> with temp bonuses I see this:
      >> STR: 10/+0 18/+4
      >> DEX: 14/+2 20/+5
      >>
      >> You can see the first column is messed up now.. it has subtracted the
      >> temp bonus from the base score in addition to adding it to find the
      >> temp scores.
      >>
      >> maybe it isnt the Output sheet at all but a weird effect of the
      >> implementation of the temporary bonuses that is the real problem here.
      >>
      >> csheet_fantasy_combined.htm does not exibit the problem, but it
      >> doesnt show the original unmodified scores, so its just hidden.

      --
      ~ Eddy
      ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
      ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
    • Paul W. King
      ... *chuckle* It appears that you and I entered ours at about the same time...you just seconds ahead of me. Paul W. King TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
        > Here you go:
        > [ 984045 ] [5.6.1] Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp
        > bonus
        >
        > Eddy
        > Tracker monkey in training

        *chuckle*

        It appears that you and I entered ours at about the same time...you
        just seconds ahead of me.

        Paul W. King
        TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
      • Eddy Anthony
        D oh I even checked to see that it hadn t been done and waited a few minutes. ... -- ~ Eddy ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
          D'oh
          I even checked to see that it hadn't been done and waited a few minutes.

          On 7/2/04 9:11 AM, "Paul W. King" <paulking.rhochi@...> wrote:

          >> Here you go:
          >> [ 984045 ] [5.6.1] Many output Sheets show wrong data with temp
          >> bonus
          >>
          >> Eddy
          >> Tracker monkey in training
          >
          > *chuckle*
          >
          > It appears that you and I entered ours at about the same time...you
          > just seconds ahead of me.
          >
          > Paul W. King
          > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

          --
          ~ Eddy
          ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
          ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
        • Chuck Pint
          ... I ll double check but it should. ... That s all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in all 10 s for the base scores, and the real
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
            > Great to hear that. Does psionics work in 5.6.1 than? It works in 5.7.1
            > but I think it's part of PCGen. The OS are nearly the same between
            > those versions.
            >

            I'll double check but it should.

            > > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the fact that
            > > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the column that
            > > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are looking
            > > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
            > > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to right.
            > > Any comments?
            >
            > I would leave it as it is.
            > BASE ABILITY TEMP
            > Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
            > It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
            > values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
            > normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
            > So that I can see the progression.
            >
            > Marc

            That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
            all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
            "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
          • mtucker@airmail.net
            ... Actually, that s the situation for any character who has a template that alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column is just your
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 2, 2004
              >> > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the fact that
              >> > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the column that
              >> > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are looking
              >> > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
              >> > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to right.
              >> > Any comments?
              >>
              >> I would leave it as it is.
              >> BASE ABILITY TEMP
              >> Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
              >> It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
              >> values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
              >> normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
              >> So that I can see the progression.
              >>
              >> Marc
              >
              > That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
              > all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
              > "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
              >

              Actually, that's the situation for any character who has a template that
              alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column is just
              your "raw" ability scores (including normal racial modes, e.g. Elf, but
              not including the racial template). The ABILITY column is your "net"
              ability scores, including any equipment modifiers (e.g. Gloves of
              Dexterity).

              So, for a Half-Celestial character wearing Gloves of Dexterity, *neither*
              column actually shows you your "normal" unmodified ability scores.
              Sub-optimal and confusing, to say the least.

              It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to templates.
              That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of "true"
              *smile*).

              Michael
            • Chuck Pint
              ... fact that ... column that ... looking ... right. ... is just ... *neither* ... I did some more checking into this, and it s confusing to say the least.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 5, 2004
                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, mtucker@a... wrote:
                > >> > BTW, the one thing I don't like about the xslt sheet is the
                fact that
                > >> > the first column pair is the "base" scores. Since it's the
                column that
                > >> > the player's eyes first see, it causes confusion when they are
                looking
                > >> > at it. I'd prefer to see the modified score first, then the base
                > >> > scores, then the grayed out temp scores, in that order left to
                right.
                > >> > Any comments?
                > >>
                > >> I would leave it as it is.
                > >> BASE ABILITY TEMP
                > >> Make the base score light-colored and the ability score dark.
                > >> It makes sense to me that on the left side, I have my "lowest"
                > >> values without modifications. In the middle I can see my
                > >> normal values and on the right side my enhanced values.
                > >> So that I can see the progression.
                > >>
                > >> Marc
                > >
                > > That's all well and good until you look at a familar. Then it puts in
                > > all 10's for the base scores, and the real scores show as the
                > > "modified" scores. Now that's really confusing...
                > >
                >
                > Actually, that's the situation for any character who has a template that
                > alters their ability scores (e.g. Half-Celestial). The BASE column
                is just
                > your "raw" ability scores (including normal racial modes, e.g. Elf, but
                > not including the racial template). The ABILITY column is your "net"
                > ability scores, including any equipment modifiers (e.g. Gloves of
                > Dexterity).
                >
                > So, for a Half-Celestial character wearing Gloves of Dexterity,
                *neither*
                > column actually shows you your "normal" unmodified ability scores.
                > Sub-optimal and confusing, to say the least.
                >
                > It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to templates.
                > That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of "true"
                > *smile*).
                >
                > Michael

                I did some more checking into this, and it's confusing to say the
                least. Just for fun(?) I created a Gnome Cleric2-Barbarian3. Started
                off with all 10's for stats. So Gnome gives a -2 to Strength. At
                fourth level I gave him a bonus in Strength. Then I bumped his
                Strength by +1. Then I added a Belt of Giant Strength +4. Then I added
                via a temporary bonus (Bull's Strength) of +2. Here are the results
                for Strength:
                BASE 11
                BASEMOD +2
                NOEQUIP 11
                MOD.NOEQUIP +0
                NOTEMP 13
                MOD.NOTEMP +1
                NOEQUIP.NOTEMP 9
                MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP -1
                NOPOST 15
                MOD.NOPOST +2
                (none) 15
                MOD +2

                Note that many of these are wrong. BASEMOD should not be +2, it should
                be +0. BASE (if I understand the docs) should be 10. NOTEMP is
                undocumented, but since it's in the xlst sheets (see BASE.XML), I
                thought I'd try it. NOPOST does not seem to do anything at all.
                Actually I don't understand how NOPOST could work in the first place.
                It seems that the level boost to Strength is exactly the same as the
                manual boost to Strength that I did at 5th level (both are
                "POSTSTAT:STR=1").

                Then just for more fun, I added the Half-Celestial Template on the
                Race tab. No other changes from all that above. That added +4 to
                Strength. Here are the results:

                BASE 11
                BASEMOD +4
                NOEQUIP 15
                MOD.NOEQUIP +2
                NOTEMP 17
                MOD.NOTEMP +3
                NOEQUIP.NOTEMP 13
                MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP +1
                NOPOST 19
                MOD.NOPOST +4
                (none) 19
                MOD +4

                BASE and BASEMOD are still quite wrong. NOPOST still does not seem to
                do anything. NOTEMP seems to only remove stat changes that are added
                from the Temporary Bonuses tab.

                So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
                following:

                BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
                ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
                TEMP SCOREs => (none)
                TEMP MODs => MOD

                This will show (in order from left to right):
                BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
                and racial templates modifications in place

                ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment equipped.

                TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary Bonuses.

                I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
                Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
                questions?

                Chuck
              • Michael
                [mass amounts of detailed analysis chopped] ... equipped. ... Bonuses. ... My only comment is: Wow! You rock. I can t wait to see the results! ... m.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
                  [mass amounts of detailed analysis chopped]

                  > So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
                  > following:
                  >
                  > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                  > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                  > ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
                  > ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
                  > TEMP SCOREs => (none)
                  > TEMP MODs => MOD
                  >
                  > This will show (in order from left to right):
                  > BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
                  > and racial templates modifications in place
                  >
                  > ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment
                  equipped.
                  >
                  > TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary
                  Bonuses.
                  >
                  > I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
                  > Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
                  > questions?
                  >
                  > Chuck

                  My only comment is: Wow! You rock.

                  I can't wait to see the results!

                  ---
                  m.
                • Chuck Pint
                  ... No need to wait. I ve checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet is to be able to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                    > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                    >
                    > I can't wait to see the results!
                    >
                    > ---
                    > m.

                    No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                    has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet
                    is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                    showing the temporary bonuses.

                    The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                    csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                    last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.

                    Chuck
                  • Michael Tucker
                    ... Chuck, you absolutely rock! Thanks for taking the time to figure this out, and even more for fixing it. :-) Michael
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 6, 2004
                      On Jul 5, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Chuck Pint wrote:

                      >> (snip)
                      >> It would be nice if the BASE column reflected changes due to
                      >> templates.
                      >> That would at least be closer to the truth (for certain values of
                      >> "true"
                      >> *smile*).
                      >>
                      >> Michael
                      >
                      > I did some more checking into this, and it's confusing to say the
                      > least. (snip)
                      >
                      > So I've concluded that the proper stats to show on the OS are the
                      > following:
                      >
                      > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                      > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                      > ABILITY SCOREs => .NOTEMP
                      > ABILITY MODs => MOD.NOTEMP
                      > TEMP SCOREs => (none)
                      > TEMP MODs => MOD
                      >
                      > This will show (in order from left to right):
                      > BASE: abilities scores with all permanent stat adjustments, racial,
                      > and racial templates modifications in place
                      >
                      > ABILITY: all the BASE plus any modifications due to equipment equipped.
                      >
                      > TEMP: all of ABILITY plus any modifications due to Temporary Bonuses.
                      >
                      > I propose to make these changes to the HTML sheets (and would ask
                      > Frugal make the same change to the xlst sheets). Any comments or
                      > questions?
                      >
                      > Chuck
                      >

                      Chuck, you absolutely rock! Thanks for taking the time to figure this
                      out, and even more for fixing it. :-)

                      Michael
                    • God
                      ... That s great. When will you do the PDF sheets? Marc
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 7, 2004
                        > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                        > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that sheet
                        > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                        > showing the temporary bonuses.
                        >
                        > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                        > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                        > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.

                        That's great. When will you do the PDF sheets?

                        Marc
                      • Reed Thornton
                        ... sheet ... Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now? Reed QA Chimp, BoD
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 9, 2004
                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                          > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                          > > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                          > >
                          > > I can't wait to see the results!
                          > >
                          > > ---
                          > > m.
                          >
                          > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                          > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that
                          sheet
                          > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                          > showing the temporary bonuses.
                          >
                          > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                          > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                          > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.
                          >
                          > Chuck

                          Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now?

                          Reed
                          QA Chimp, BoD
                        • Chuck Pint
                          ... I would guess so. I ve committed the changes so it should be there. With the alpha build page down, you would have to get it directly from sourceforge. I
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 9, 2004
                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Reed Thornton" <rthornton13@c...> wrote:
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Pint" <pcgen@c...> wrote:
                            > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                            > > > My only comment is: Wow! You rock.
                            > > >
                            > > > I can't wait to see the results!
                            > > >
                            > > > ---
                            > > > m.
                            > >
                            > > No need to wait. I've checked in the csheet_fantasy_combined.htm. It
                            > > has the new stat block. Note that since the whole point of that
                            > sheet
                            > > is to be able to change the stats on the fly, it comes up without
                            > > showing the temporary bonuses.
                            > >
                            > > The other sheets will be a while yet. csheet_fantasy_std.htm and and
                            > > csheet_fantasy_compact.htm need a ton of work. They will also be the
                            > > last two I'll do, I want to knock off the simpler ones first.
                            > >
                            > > Chuck
                            >
                            > Is the new version only available through sourceforge right now?
                            >
                            > Reed
                            > QA Chimp, BoD

                            I would guess so. I've committed the changes so it should be there.
                            With the alpha build page down, you would have to get it directly from
                            sourceforge. I could post it somewhere, but I'm not sure that's a good
                            idea. However, anyone that would like to email me for the new version
                            may do so. I would be happy to send it out that way. Just let me know
                            if you want it zipped, tarred or what. The massive amount of
                            JavaScript triggers way too many anti-spam filters.

                            Chuck
                            OS Gibbon
                          • Chuck Pint
                            ... I m making these changes to the OS now. By accident, I found that changing to NOTEMP.NOEQUIP does something completely different (and wrong) from listing
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 13, 2004
                              > BASE SCOREs => NOEQUIP.NOTEMP
                              > BASE MODs => MOD.NOEQUIP.NOTEMP

                              I'm making these changes to the OS now. By accident, I found that
                              changing to NOTEMP.NOEQUIP does something completely different (and
                              wrong) from listing it in the other order. Maybe it's nothing, but
                              could a code monkey take a look at it?

                              Chuck
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