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[OS] 5.6.1 Touch AC calc looks wrong

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  • Michael
    I am using pcGEN 5.6.1 with JRE 1.4.2_04 I am looking at the output of my Monk/10 in both HTML Preview and the PDF files and the Touch AC looks wrong. I have
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 29, 2004
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      I am using pcGEN 5.6.1 with JRE 1.4.2_04

      I am looking at the output of my Monk/10 in both HTML Preview and the
      PDF files and the Touch AC looks wrong.

      I have created a magic Item
      Robe giving +3 AC Bonus

      Here is what the line in my custom equipment looks like:
      BASEITEM:Robe NAME:Robes of Ironsilk (+3) EQMOD:
      BNS_ENHC_AC|+3 SPROP:(Robe (Armor Bonus (Enhancement) (+3)))

      anyway, when you equip this item both the HTML and the PDF output
      sheets show the armor bonus as 0 and add the +3 to the MISC field.

      The problem is this makes the Touch AC count the +3 when it shouldn't
      The +3 should be in the Armor bonus total and not be added to the
      Touch AC.

      The same thing happens when I equip a Fighter/1 with this same robe.

      If you create magic armor (like chainmail) the same way, the Output
      is
      correct of course, showing Armor Bonus of 8 (5+3) and not adding the
      +3 to the Touch AC.

      Another interresting note is that on the Summary Tab, in the
      Statistics section, the Touch AC also shows the same total as the
      Output sheets.

      This sure looks like a bug to me, but I suspect it is deeper than the
      Output Sheets since the summary tab also shows the incorrect touch AC.

      Thanks for looking into it!

      Regards,
      Michael
    • Michael
      Also, just to doublecheck, I highlighted the item in the equipment list to see what it said in the Equipment Info for this item, and here it is: Robes of
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 29, 2004
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        Also, just to doublecheck, I highlighted the item in the equipment
        list to see what it said in the "Equipment Info" for this item, and
        here it is:

        Robes of Ironsilk (+3)  TYPE:ROBE.CUSTOM.ENHANCEMENT
         Properties:COMBAT|AC|3.0|TYPE=ARMOR.REPLACE.STACK|(Robe (Armor
        Bonus (Enhancement) (+3))) WT:0.0 lbs. Armor Class Bonus:3 Size:M
        SOURCE:
        Custom - System Reference Document, srdmagicitems.rtf

        It looks perfect to me. I am guessing PCGen is not treating the robe
        as armor for purposes of where to put the bonus even though the Bonus
        is correctly defined.

        Regards,
        Michael
      • marcovreijsen
        ... Robe of Ironsilk (+3) OUTPUTNAME:Robe of Ironsilk (+3) TYPE:Magic.Wondrous.Robe.Custom COST:0 WT:0 BONUS:COMBAT|AC|3|TYPE=Armor ... On my monk it
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
          > Also, just to doublecheck, I highlighted the item in the equipment
          > list to see what it said in the "Equipment Info" for this item, and
          > here it is:
          >
          > Robes of Ironsilk (+3) TYPE:ROBE.CUSTOM.ENHANCEMENT
          > Properties:COMBAT|AC|3.0|TYPE=ARMOR.REPLACE.STACK|(Robe (Armor
          > Bonus (Enhancement) (+3))) WT:0.0 lbs. Armor Class Bonus:3 Size:M
          > SOURCE:
          > Custom - System Reference Document, srdmagicitems.rtf
          >
          > It looks perfect to me. I am guessing PCGen is not treating the robe
          > as armor for purposes of where to put the bonus even though the Bonus
          > is correctly defined.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Michael

          I have just tried this:
          ---
          Robe of Ironsilk (+3) OUTPUTNAME:Robe of Ironsilk (+3)
          TYPE:Magic.Wondrous.Robe.Custom COST:0 WT:0
          BONUS:COMBAT|AC|3|TYPE=Armor
          ---
          On my monk it works just fine.
          Try a Robe of the Archmage to see if its pcgen or your robe.

          Marco
        • Michael
          ... Well, that is a very interesting workaround, but it does force you to manually create the item in a list file since the robe does not correctly work when
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2004
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            >
            > I have just tried this:
            > ---
            > Robe of Ironsilk (+3) OUTPUTNAME:Robe of Ironsilk (+3)
            > TYPE:Magic.Wondrous.Robe.Custom COST:0 WT:0
            > BONUS:COMBAT|AC|3|TYPE=Armor
            > ---
            > On my monk it works just fine.
            > Try a Robe of the Archmage to see if its pcgen or your robe.
            >
            > Marco

            Well, that is a very interesting workaround, but it does force you to
            manually create the item in a list file since the robe does not
            correctly work when you use the customizer.

            I see that the robes of the archmagi use this same workaround. The
            problem is that instead of treating the robe as armor class 0 with a
            +5 enhancement bonus (such as would be the case for the robe of the
            arch magi) it treats it like mundane studded leather armor, which
            means you can use the customizer on the robe of the magi and add an
            armor enhancement bonus to it, which is not correct since you could
            make the robe +3, yielding an armor of 8 for the robe (+3 on top of
            the defined AC5).

            You can see that if I create an item in my equipment list like you
            describe, you could then run the customizer against it to make it a
            Robe of IronSilk (+3) (+3). Which should not be possible since it is
            supposed to already have this type of bonus.

            I also note the same oddity is going on with bracers of armor.

            Frankly this seems like a fundamental flaw in how magic armor bonuses
            are handled for non-armor items. Or at least what happens to these
            things when one adds armor bonus using the customizer. Obviously I
            can use the workaround... the same one used to define Bracer of armor
            and the robes of the magi, but its not good for those players that
            dont want to learn how to create lst files.

            Is there any hope of this kind of item customizer problem being
            addressed? I guess its larger really than just the customizer.

            At least the stacking seems to work correctly with this method. If
            you use the customizer to add an armor enhancement bonus to things
            other than armor, the stacking is also messed up:
            e.g. Using the customizer, make a robe with +3 enhancement bonus,
            equip a fighter with leather armor and the robe and look at the
            numbers... With only this robe the AC is 13 (correct). with only the
            leather it is 12 (correct) but wearing both it is 17... the leather
            is
            counted twice and then stacks with the robe armor. Odd.

            if you define the magic robe manually in the lst file as described by
            marco (like bracers or robes of the magi), and equip it with leather,
            only the higher number is counted, which is correct. So with our
            example above, equiping both leather and the +3 robe yield ac 13,
            same
            as +3 robe alone.
          • marcovreijsen
            ... The Robe of the Archmagi has a +5 ARMOR bonus to AC (3.5 DMG) So the TYPE=Armor is correct. Bracers of armor also give an armor bonus, not an enhancment
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 4, 2004
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, that is a very interesting workaround, but it does force you to
              > manually create the item in a list file since the robe does not
              > correctly work when you use the customizer.
              >
              > I see that the robes of the archmagi use this same workaround. The
              > problem is that instead of treating the robe as armor class 0 with a
              > +5 enhancement bonus (such as would be the case for the robe of the
              > arch magi) it treats it like mundane studded leather armor, which
              > means you can use the customizer on the robe of the magi and add an
              > armor enhancement bonus to it, which is not correct since you could
              > make the robe +3, yielding an armor of 8 for the robe (+3 on top of
              > the defined AC5).

              The Robe of the Archmagi has a +5 ARMOR bonus to AC (3.5 DMG)
              So the "TYPE=Armor" is correct. Bracers of armor also give an armor
              bonus, not an enhancment bonus.
              If you want your item to give an enhancment bonus change the type to:
              TYPE=Enhancement
              I don't think there is anything wrong here.

              > Frankly this seems like a fundamental flaw in how magic armor bonuses
              > are handled for non-armor items. Or at least what happens to these
              > things when one adds armor bonus using the customizer. Obviously I
              > can use the workaround... the same one used to define Bracer of armor
              > and the robes of the magi, but its not good for those players that
              > dont want to learn how to create lst files.

              Creating lst files isn't that hard if you look at the existing files
              for examples. Just search for a similar item/bonus and copy-paste.

              Marco
            • Michael
              (summary of the bug is at the bottom) ... There is something wrong because it ends up being added to Touch AC, which is not correct. Enhancement bonuses to AC
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 6, 2004
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                (summary of the bug is at the bottom)
                >>>Marco states:
                > The Robe of the Archmagi has a +5 ARMOR bonus to AC (3.5 DMG)
                > So the "TYPE=Armor" is correct. Bracers of armor also give an armor
                > bonus, not an enhancment bonus.
                > If you want your item to give an enhancment bonus change the type
                to:
                > TYPE=Enhancement
                > I don't think there is anything wrong here.

                There is something wrong because it ends up being added to Touch AC,
                which is not correct. Enhancement bonuses to AC only seem to work
                properly on actual Armor, and not clothing. This is the problem I
                brought up in the first place.

                I dont necessarily agree with your bonus type analysis. I think the
                item is described badly, or there is a simple nomenclature
                inconsistency. I do not believe that the intent for the robe of the
                archmagi was that the armor bonus is the same as the mundane armor
                bonus from chainmail and that it can therefore be enchanted further
                with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. I believe it is clearly
                supposed to be a magical armor bonus and it is described badly.

                Note from the 3e SRD:
                "ARMOR
                Magic armor bonuses are referred to as enhancement bonuses, never
                rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield
                and magic shield enhancement bonuses). Further, all magic armor is
                also masterwork armor, so armor check penalties are reduced by 1"

                Note the distinction between "regular armor bonuses" and "Magic armor
                bonuses".

                The same should be true for the Bracers, even though their
                description is even stranger than the robe and violates the +5 limit
                mentioned above.

                No matter how one conceives of these two items, the item customizer
                in PCGen should allow you to add a magial armor bonus to a robe or
                other clothing item and correctly apply the bonus. Today, it does
                not.

                > Creating lst files isn't that hard if you look at the existing files
                > for examples. Just search for a similar item/bonus and copy-paste.

                I agree that is isnt hard for me or for you. But I totally disagree
                that this is an acceptable approach for most people. A tool that
                requires a user to manually edit configuration files to accomplish
                very basic magic items cannot be used by the masses, only by those,
                like us, that dig getting messy. For me finding a LST file fix is an
                interesting adventure, for most however i suspect it would be vexing.

                Furthermore, editing LST files means that a group of 6 gamers in the
                same campaign or even each player and the GM must share and sync
                these updated files routinely which is painful at best. And you
                better hope the GM and players have not independently created the
                same
                items different ways in their LST files with varying degrees of
                success. Oy!

                OTOH the ability to make LST files for campaign specific stuff is
                awesome and one of the things that sets PCGen apart.

                I desperately want to share PCGen with my fellow gamers in the DnD
                game I play with them, but I wont yet because I dont want to become
                LST file tech support. I love PCGen, but IMO it isnt ready for my
                non PC-savvy gamer friends. Having said that I must also point out
                that the item customizer has come a long way and is getting really
                good. (Thank you code monkeys!)

                In conclusion, I have used your suggestion to get past the problem I
                was experiencing, but my request for the Item customer/equipper to
                correctly handle customized robes and clothing still stands.

                I dont know if this should be considered a FREQ or a BUG.

                Regards,
                Michael

                In case you dont want to read the whole thread, here is the issue in
                a
                nutshell:

                If you use the item customizer on a robe or other clothing item and
                add a magical armor bonus to it, that armor bonus is calculated into
                the MISC bucket and is added to the touch AC, which is wrong. It
                should show in the armor bonus bucket and not be counted in the touch
                AC.

                The earlier part of the thread was mostly supposition about why that
                is happening and a discussion of the technicalities of stacking and
                bonus types. Which in the end do not make the bug go away :-P
              • marcovreijsen
                ... First, if you think people are not gonna read the whole thread you shouldn t put the short-version at the bottom :P It is indeed a bug. Maybe because there
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 8, 2004
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                  > In case you dont want to read the whole thread, here is the issue in
                  > a
                  > nutshell:
                  >
                  > If you use the item customizer on a robe or other clothing item and
                  > add a magical armor bonus to it, that armor bonus is calculated into
                  > the MISC bucket and is added to the touch AC, which is wrong. It
                  > should show in the armor bonus bucket and not be counted in the touch
                  > AC.
                  >
                  > The earlier part of the thread was mostly supposition about why that
                  > is happening and a discussion of the technicalities of stacking and
                  > bonus types. Which in the end do not make the bug go away :-P

                  First, if you think people are not gonna read the whole thread you
                  shouldn't put the short-version at the bottom :P

                  It is indeed a bug. Maybe because there are no items in the DMG with
                  an enhancement bonus to AC other then armors, noone noticed it. It
                  should add the bonus to armor so it doesn't get added to touch ac.

                  BTW Why are custom items added to the player file? Why not to the
                  customsources/customEquipment.lst file?

                  Marco
                • Chris
                  ... To make the character portable. You make custom item A and take just your .pcg file to your friends... you can still load the character on your friends
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 8, 2004
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                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <netshark86@y...> wrote:
                    > BTW Why are custom items added to the player file? Why not to the
                    > customsources/customEquipment.lst file?

                    To make the character portable.

                    You make custom item A and take just your .pcg file to your friends...
                    you can still load the character on your friends copy of PCGen and have
                    item A show up. :)

                    IIRC, it is an option where you cn have it save to the custom file
                    instead/in addition to...

                    Barak
                  • Tir Gwaith
                    ... So that in case you load a player with the custom equipment, and you ve moved to a new version of PCGen where the custom item doesn t exist, it can be
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 8, 2004
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                      > BTW Why are custom items added to the player file? Why not to the
                      > customsources/customEquipment.lst file?

                      So that in case you load a player with the custom equipment, and you've
                      moved to a new version of PCGen where the custom item doesn't exist, it can
                      be loaded... At least I think. There may be a more valid reason than that.

                      Tir Gwaith
                      LST Chimp
                    • marcovreijsen
                      ... it can ... than that. ... Ok good point, but couldn t it use the same format as .lst files? And on the subject of things being wrong with the item
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 8, 2004
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Tir Gwaith" <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:
                        > > BTW Why are custom items added to the player file? Why not to the
                        > > customsources/customEquipment.lst file?
                        >
                        > So that in case you load a player with the custom equipment, and you've
                        > moved to a new version of PCGen where the custom item doesn't exist,
                        it can
                        > be loaded... At least I think. There may be a more valid reason
                        than that.
                        >
                        > Tir Gwaith
                        > LST Chimp

                        Ok good point, but couldn't it use the same format as .lst files?

                        And on the subject of things being wrong with the item customizer:
                        The cost of double-weapons is calculated as if it is one big weapon
                        instead of 2 weapons. Example: +2 flaming +2 frost quarterstaff has a
                        cost of a +6 weapon (72000gp) instead of 2 +3 items (36000gp)
                        It is also not possible to have one head +2 and one head +1. It
                        automatically gives the magical + to both heads.
                      • cadafaly@yahoo.com
                        Here is the statblock for a simple fighter I created Created using PCGen 5.7.2 on 28 juil. 2004 Touch-AC-Bug :Male Human Fighter1; CR 1; Medium HUMANOID; HD
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 28, 2004
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                          Here is the statblock for a simple fighter I created

                          Created using PCGen 5.7.2 on 28 juil. 2004

                          Touch-AC-Bug :Male Human Fighter1; CR 1; Medium HUMANOID; HD (1d10)
                          +2; hp 12; Init +1 (+1 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 20'; AC 18 (flatfooted
                          17, touch 13); Base Atk +1; Grp +3; Atk -1 Melee (1d4+2/20/x2,
                          *Shield, Large ); Atk +4 Melee (1d10+2/19-20/x2, *Sword, Bastard );
                          SA: ; Vision: Normal; AL: TN; SV: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +0; Str 15,
                          Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
                          Skills and Feats: Climb -1, Handle Animal +3, Jump -1, Ride +5, Armor
                          Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency
                          (Medium), Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon
                          Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon
                          Focus (Sword (Bastard/Exotic)).
                          Possessions: Shield (Large/Metal); Sword (Bastard); Chainmail

                          The touch AC is 13 when it shoulb be 11.

                          Switching between the "Summary" and "Inventory/Equiping" tabs shows
                          that the problem comes from the shield which AC bonus is added to the
                          touch AC when, according to the SRD, it shouldn't.

                          When using the csheet_fantasy_std.htm output sheet, the AC breaks
                          into:

                          With the chainmail and the shield
                          18 : 17 : 13 = 10 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2
                          TOTAL FLAT TOUCH BASE ARMOR SHIELD STAT SIZE NATURAL MISC
                          The armor bonus to AC (5 for the chainmail) is splitted in 2 (3/armor
                          + 2/misc.)

                          Without the chainmail and with the shield
                          13 : 12 : 13 = 10 + -2 + 2 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2
                          TOTAL FLAT TOUCH BASE ARMOR SHIELD STAT SIZE NATURAL MISC

                          With the chainmail and without the shield
                          16 : 15 : 11 = 10 + 5 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 0
                          TOTAL FLAT TOUCH BASE ARMOR SHIELD STAT SIZE NATURAL MISC

                          Bye

                          --
                          Christian
                        • cadafaly@yahoo.com
                          ... I wrote this sentence before I made more tests (which results I wrote in my previous mail). It s not the shield s AC bonus that s added it is the fanciful
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 28, 2004
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                            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, cadafaly@y... wrote:
                            > Switching between the "Summary" and "Inventory/Equiping" tabs
                            > shows that the problem comes from the shield which AC bonus is
                            > added to the touch AC when, according to the SRD, it shouldn't.

                            I wrote this sentence before I made more tests (which results I wrote
                            in my previous mail). It's not the shield's AC bonus that's added it
                            is the fanciful misceleanous bonus that appears when equiping the
                            caracter with a shield. For what I saw these two bonuses are always
                            equal.

                            Bye

                            --
                            Christian
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