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Extra Turning (was: Re: Help with PDF export)

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  • Chuck Pint
    ... ONE ... Nope, the Extra Turning feat from 3.5 says If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one type of creature (...), each of your turning or
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 2 5:25 PM
      > But I seem to remember that Extra Turning had to be applied to only
      ONE
      > type of turning not globally that may only be in my head though.

      Nope, the Extra Turning feat from 3.5 says "If you have the ability to
      turn or rebuke more than one type of creature (...), each of your
      turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day." The
      3.0 version doesn't really say anything about anything except undead.

      I'm looking into fixing this all up in the combined OS. Next it will
      go into the other HTML OS.

      Chuck
    • Frugal
      ... I have already fixed this problem in the CVS version of the PDF outputsheets. The problem was that the ExtraTurning feat increases the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 3 1:20 AM
        <quote who="Chris">
        >> --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "blue_seiryu" <blue_seiryu@y...> wrote:
        >> > Anyone know how I can export a cleric with the sun domain into PDF
        >> > without all the extra turning info like turn air/fire/earth/water?
        >> > All I want is turn undead.
        >>
        >> This is a Barak type question. He can probably answer it if anyone
        >> can. Felipe would also be a good person to answer this.
        >>
        >
        > I would be willing to be the cleric has Extra Turning?
        >
        > It's happening because we use the various variables (TurnTimesxxxx,
        > etc.) to toggle the display. The reasoning being, if they exist, you
        > have that type of turning. Extra Turning mucks that up because it
        > grants a bonus to ALL of the various types of turning.
        >
        > There are a couple of ways I can think of to fix it, but both of them
        > will require modifications to the .lst files as well as the OS..
        >
        > a) create a separate "Extra Turning" feat for each type of turning (NOT
        > optimal in my opinion)
        >
        > b) add yet another variable simply to indicate they have x type of
        > turning (this MAY exist, I'm at work so can't actually look at the .lst
        > files and see if it's already there in some form).

        I have already fixed this problem in the CVS version of the PDF
        outputsheets. The problem was that the ExtraTurning feat increases the
        times per day for all turning types, not just ones you already have. and
        as the outputsheet displays a turning block for each turning type you have
        >0 turns per day this means that all of the turning blocks get shown.

        The outputsheet now uses the TurnLevel variable instead of the TurnTimes
        variable to determine if a turning block should be shown.


        --
        regards,
        Frugal
        -OS Chimp
      • Chuck Pint
        While the fixes you note below are in place and working, there is still at least one more outstanding bug in the turning Undead. There is a bug listed under
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 3 5:28 AM
          While the fixes you note below are in place and working, there is
          still at least one more outstanding bug in the turning Undead. There
          is a bug listed under OS, that looks to me to really be a data bug.
          That's the synergy bonus of +2 with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge
          (religion) to turning checks. Note that this only applies to turning
          Undead, and not to any other turning type. I don't see this anywhere.

          Chuck


          > It does exist, Barak. It is the TurnTimesXXXX vars. They are done
          with a
          > DEFINE:TurnTimesXXXX|TurnTimesBase statement. Extra Turning feat
          has bonus
          > to TurnTimesBase VAR, so it effects all Turning abilities at the
          same time.
          >
          > So if the TurnTimesXXXX var is defined, they have that ability. If
          it isn't
          > defined, they don't. I was thinking ahead when I designed it....
          That is
          > one of the principle reasons there is a TurnTimesBase VAR..... Doug
          and I
          > had to go around and around to get the complexities in a nice simple
          form
          > that would work in ALL instances, and allow maximum flexibility in
          how users
          > want to use the program. The Matra on the LST Chimp team is
          "Flexibilty,
          > Standardization, Flexibility......" You get picture. One of those
          words
          > usually is what starts our lengthy discussions and the other one
          usually
          > ends it, albeit many hours later.....
          >
          > Tir Gwaith
          > LST Chimp
        • Chris
          ... Not quite true and exactly my point (and the problem). Extra Turning grants +x to ALL of those variables, so after they take Extra Turning, all those
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 3 5:46 AM
            > So if the TurnTimesXXXX var is defined, they have that ability. If
            > it isn't defined, they don't.

            Not quite true and exactly my point (and the problem). Extra Turning
            grants +x to ALL of those variables, so after they take Extra Turning,
            all those variables do exist (even though a DEFINE has never been used
            for them), and since the sheets are keyed to operate off of them, all
            those tables show up.

            It looks like Frugal has a solution though by simply using one of the
            other variables (TURNLEVELxxx I think he said in his e-mail), so it's
            not a real big deal any more. :p

            It would be nice that if a VAR hadn't been defined it didn't show up
            even if there was a BONUS:VAR for it... I can think of SEVERAL uses for
            that.

            Barak
          • Tir Gwaith
            in rsrdskills.lst, under Knowledge (Religion): BONUS:VAR|TurnCheckUndead|2|PRESKILL:1,Knowledge (Religion)=5 Only applies to Undead Turn Checks. It is in the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 3 1:18 PM
              in rsrdskills.lst, under Knowledge (Religion):
              BONUS:VAR|TurnCheckUndead|2|PRESKILL:1,Knowledge (Religion)=5

              Only applies to Undead Turn Checks. It is in the data... Not sure if the
              OS is grabbing the right VARs if there is an issue there. :)

              The only outstanding feature not implemented is the fact that the domains
              that grant "Fire Turning/Water Rebuking" etc, have a combined number of
              turning attempts instead of tracking each individually. I can't remember if
              it was Doug or myself that decided that was an enhancement for another
              time.. Thanks to Devon for finding that though...

              Tir Gwaith
              LST Chimp

              > While the fixes you note below are in place and working, there is
              > still at least one more outstanding bug in the turning Undead. There
              > is a bug listed under OS, that looks to me to really be a data bug.
              > That's the synergy bonus of +2 with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge
              > (religion) to turning checks. Note that this only applies to turning
              > Undead, and not to any other turning type. I don't see this anywhere.
              >
              > Chuck
            • Tir Gwaith
              ... That s BAD... A variable is not supposed to exist unless there is a DEFINE. I ve based a whole lot of logic on that.... Code Bug, perhaps? Tir Gwaith LST
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 3 1:20 PM
                > > So if the TurnTimesXXXX var is defined, they have that ability. If
                > > it isn't defined, they don't.
                >
                > Not quite true and exactly my point (and the problem). Extra Turning
                > grants +x to ALL of those variables, so after they take Extra Turning,
                > all those variables do exist (even though a DEFINE has never been used
                > for them), and since the sheets are keyed to operate off of them, all
                > those tables show up.
                >

                That's BAD... A variable is not supposed to exist unless there is a DEFINE.
                I've based a whole lot of logic on that.... Code Bug, perhaps?

                Tir Gwaith
                LST Chimp
              • Chuck Pint
                Ok, the Knowledge (Religion) does work, I made the mistake of thinking it was the same for 3.0 and 3.5, but only 3.5 actually has that bonus. However, there is
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 3 7:28 PM
                  Ok, the Knowledge (Religion) does work, I made the mistake of thinking
                  it was the same for 3.0 and 3.5, but only 3.5 actually has that bonus.

                  However, there is a problem with the rsrd domains lst file. The Air,
                  Fire, Earth and Water domains do not grant the Turn/Rebuke Feats. Air
                  has a VFEAT (which doesn't work), and the other three have nothing at
                  all. The srd domains lst file is fine.

                  This is going to be important, because the OS team just decided that
                  looking for the feat to turn on a turning block is safer than looking
                  for a variable defined...

                  Chuck

                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Tir Gwaith" <thoron-tir-gwaith@l...> wrote:
                  > in rsrdskills.lst, under Knowledge (Religion):
                  > BONUS:VAR|TurnCheckUndead|2|PRESKILL:1,Knowledge (Religion)=5
                  >
                  > Only applies to Undead Turn Checks. It is in the data... Not sure
                  if the
                  > OS is grabbing the right VARs if there is an issue there. :)
                  >
                  > The only outstanding feature not implemented is the fact that the
                  domains
                  > that grant "Fire Turning/Water Rebuking" etc, have a combined number of
                  > turning attempts instead of tracking each individually. I can't
                  remember if
                  > it was Doug or myself that decided that was an enhancement for another
                  > time.. Thanks to Devon for finding that though...
                  >
                  > Tir Gwaith
                  > LST Chimp
                  >
                  > > While the fixes you note below are in place and working, there is
                  > > still at least one more outstanding bug in the turning Undead. There
                  > > is a bug listed under OS, that looks to me to really be a data bug.
                  > > That's the synergy bonus of +2 with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge
                  > > (religion) to turning checks. Note that this only applies to turning
                  > > Undead, and not to any other turning type. I don't see this anywhere.
                  > >
                  > > Chuck
                • Barak
                  ... I just tested and that is working properly. It works in the xslt sheets and _combined. It doesn t matter at the moment for the _std sheet because the turn
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3 7:34 PM
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Tir Gwaith [mailto:thoron-tir-gwaith@...]

                    > Only applies to Undead Turn Checks. It is in the data...
                    > Not sure if the OS is grabbing the right VARs if there is an
                    > issue there. :)

                    I just tested and that is working properly. It works in the xslt sheets and
                    _combined.

                    It doesn't matter at the moment for the _std sheet because the turn check
                    isn't even shown on there, just the level, damage and turns per day ... I'll
                    have to get that sheet updated. :p

                    Barak
                    ~PCGen BoD
                    ~OS Silverback
                  • Barak
                    ... I wasn t sure if that was how it was supposed to operate or not. You re usually fairly careful about sort of thing, so I was wondering about that one. I
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3 7:34 PM
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Tir Gwaith [mailto:thoron-tir-gwaith@...]
                      >
                      > > Extra Turning grants +x to ALL of those variables...
                      >
                      > That's BAD... A variable is not supposed to exist unless
                      > there is a DEFINE. I've based a whole lot of logic on
                      > that.... Code Bug, perhaps?

                      I wasn't sure if that was how it was supposed to operate or not. You're
                      usually fairly careful about sort of thing, so I was wondering about that
                      one.

                      I remember a bug (feature?) where if you did a BONUS:VAR|yyy|#, if the yyy
                      wasn't defined you would end up with double that value because it would
                      initialize the variable to that number, and then add it again. :p

                      I would agree that if a VAR hasn't been defined a bonus to it should be
                      ignored and NOT create the variable.

                      Barak
                      ~PCGen BoD
                      ~OS Silverback
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