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Gestalt Chars from UA

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  • Ralph
    What would it take to make/modify a template that would allow the use, should say the correct use, of gestalt characters from the Unearthed Arcana book?
    Message 1 of 7 , May 11 9:46 AM
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      What would it take to make/modify a template that would allow the
      use, should say the correct use, of gestalt characters from the
      Unearthed Arcana book?
    • Eddy Anthony
      ... I could be wrong but I don t think Gestalt classes can be done with templates. There was some discussion on how to implement it and the conclusion was that
      Message 2 of 7 , May 11 10:01 AM
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        On 5/11/04 12:46 PM, "Ralph" <ralph_73099@...> wrote:

        > What would it take to make/modify a template that would allow the
        > use, should say the correct use, of gestalt characters from the
        > Unearthed Arcana book?

        I could be wrong but I don't think Gestalt classes can be done with
        templates. There was some discussion on how to implement it and the
        conclusion was that there are 2 possible ways. One is to create each Gestalt
        combination as a distinct LST entry which would require a lot of work to
        cover all the possible combinations but could be done with no code changes.
        The second method would be for an inspired code monkey to code the ability
        into the program. Not being a code monkey I have no idea how difficult (or
        if this is even possible) this would be to do but I would not expect to see
        this anytime soon (if ever). What I think will happen when momentum builds
        to get this book coded (and I'm looking at parts right now) is that a
        selection of base classes will be coded into Gestalt classes, not all
        possibilities but a good selection of likely choices. We'll see.

        --
        ~ Eddy
        ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
        ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
      • Ralph
        What would it involve to create a LST file? I m not a code monkey, but what is involved with doing it? I d take a shot at doing it on a individual character
        Message 3 of 7 , May 11 12:30 PM
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          What would it involve to create a LST file? I'm not a code monkey,
          but what is involved with doing it? I'd take a shot at doing it on
          a individual character basis.
          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
          > On 5/11/04 12:46 PM, "Ralph" <ralph_73099@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > What would it take to make/modify a template that would allow the
          > > use, should say the correct use, of gestalt characters from the
          > > Unearthed Arcana book?
          >
          > I could be wrong but I don't think Gestalt classes can be done with
          > templates. There was some discussion on how to implement it and the
          > conclusion was that there are 2 possible ways. One is to create
          each Gestalt
          > combination as a distinct LST entry which would require a lot of
          work to
          > cover all the possible combinations but could be done with no code
          changes.
          > The second method would be for an inspired code monkey to code the
          ability
          > into the program. Not being a code monkey I have no idea how
          difficult (or
          > if this is even possible) this would be to do but I would not
          expect to see
          > this anytime soon (if ever). What I think will happen when
          momentum builds
          > to get this book coded (and I'm looking at parts right now) is
          that a
          > selection of base classes will be coded into Gestalt classes, not
          all
          > possibilities but a good selection of likely choices. We'll see.
          >
          > --
          > ~ Eddy
          > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
          > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
        • Eddy Anthony
          ... Basically that means creating your own data files, which is not difficult to do. Check out the docs that come with the program or our online version at the
          Message 4 of 7 , May 11 12:36 PM
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            On 5/11/04 3:30 PM, "Ralph" <ralph_73099@...> wrote:

            > What would it involve to create a LST file? I'm not a code monkey,
            > but what is involved with doing it? I'd take a shot at doing it on
            > a individual character basis.

            Basically that means creating your own data files, which is not difficult to
            do. Check out the docs that come with the program or our online version at
            the FAQ link below to get started. I would also suggest looking at the RSRD
            data files to see how things work. You can probably copy one of the classes
            you are using to make a Gestalt class and change the name as a starting
            point. Look at the tags in the class and look them up in the docs to see
            what they do. You can post to our help group at:
            <PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com> for tips with specific problems. Happy
            coding.

            --
            ~ Eddy
            ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
            ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
          • tcowan20
            ... monkey, ... on ... difficult to ... version at ... the RSRD ... classes ... starting ... to see ... problems. Happy ... You can cut and paste each class
            Message 5 of 7 , May 11 4:47 PM
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
              > On 5/11/04 3:30 PM, "Ralph" <ralph_73099@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > What would it involve to create a LST file? I'm not a code
              monkey,
              > > but what is involved with doing it? I'd take a shot at doing it
              on
              > > a individual character basis.
              >
              > Basically that means creating your own data files, which is not
              difficult to
              > do. Check out the docs that come with the program or our online
              version at
              > the FAQ link below to get started. I would also suggest looking at
              the RSRD
              > data files to see how things work. You can probably copy one of the
              classes
              > you are using to make a Gestalt class and change the name as a
              starting
              > point. Look at the tags in the class and look them up in the docs
              to see
              > what they do. You can post to our help group at:
              > <PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com> for tips with specific
              problems. Happy
              > coding.
              >
              > --
              > ~ Eddy
              > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
              > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

              You can cut and paste each class combo in almost no time.
              At level 2 you can have a Monk 1(taken at level 1) / Sorcerer 2 /
              Paladin 1 (taken at level 2), Monk 1(taken at level 2) / Sorcerer 2 /
              Paladin 1 (taken at level 1), Monk 2/Sorcerer 1(taken at level 1)/
              Paladin 1(taken at level 2), Monk 2/Sorcerer 1(taken at level 2)/
              Paladin 1(taken at level 1), Monk 1(taken at level 1)/Sorcerer 1
              (taken at level 2)/ Paladin 2 Or a Monk 1(taken at level 2)/Sorcerer 1
              (taken at level 1)/ Paladin 2
              and thats with only 3 classes at level 2
              But, the List File is a snap

              e-z way, make a class for each PC as you go, pasteing in the class as
              needed
              Taking a look at each level as you go you can copy the tags to your
              class
            • Emily Smirle
              ... Actually, PCGen already keeps track of the various parts of classes as separate abilities, so it s not as nightmarish as it *could* have been. It would
              Message 6 of 7 , May 11 6:39 PM
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                Eddy Anthony wrote:

                >On 5/11/04 12:46 PM, "Ralph" <ralph_73099@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >>What would it take to make/modify a template that would allow the
                >>use, should say the correct use, of gestalt characters from the
                >>Unearthed Arcana book?
                >>
                >>
                >
                >I could be wrong but I don't think Gestalt classes can be done with
                >templates. There was some discussion on how to implement it and the
                >conclusion was that there are 2 possible ways. One is to create each Gestalt
                >combination as a distinct LST entry which would require a lot of work to
                >cover all the possible combinations but could be done with no code changes.
                >The second method would be for an inspired code monkey to code the ability
                >into the program. Not being a code monkey I have no idea how difficult (or
                >if this is even possible) this would be to do but I would not expect to see
                >this anytime soon (if ever).
                >
                Actually, PCGen already keeps track of the various parts of classes as
                separate abilities, so it's not as nightmarish as it *could* have been.
                It would actually have been easier to write in support for Gessalt stuff
                in the Bad Old Days when BAB and the various saves were separate
                objects, rather than Bonuses. However, We've got the TYPES and stacking
                relatively sorted out, so the only real hairball would be getting PCGEN
                to *not* add (say) your 5th level wizard BAB to your 5th level fighter
                BAB. It would take code modification, and definitely not *minor* code
                modification, but I suspect it might be more tedious than it would be
                *hard*.

                I'd love to take a stab at it, but I'm moving in two weeks, and looking
                for a new job. Not exactly auspicious circumstances for spare coding time.

                >What I think will happen when momentum builds
                >to get this book coded (and I'm looking at parts right now) is that a
                >selection of base classes will be coded into Gestalt classes, not all
                >possibilities but a good selection of likely choices. We'll see.
                >
                >
                The problem with this method is that technically a Gessat character
                *can* multiclass.

                An example:

                At first level, Bob takes Bard/Barbarian. He can rage once per day, has
                fast movement, has a good base attack bonus and good fort saves, uses
                d12s for hit dice, and has a great selection of weapon proficiencies. He
                also can cast charisma-based bard spells as a 1st level bard, gets 6
                skill points and access to a lot of social skills, and can use bardic
                music and bardic knowledge like a 1st level bard. He also has a good
                reflex and will save.

                At second level, Bob takes Bard/Wizard. He now casts spells like a 2nd
                level bard, uses bardic music and bardic knowledge like a second level
                bard, gets a d6 for hit points, gets a second level of good reflex and
                will saves, (for +3 each) but gets a "level" of bad fort saves. He also
                casts spell like a 1st level wizard, gets the scribe scroll feat, and
                can summon a familiar.

                At third level, Bob takes Barbarian/Wizard. His BAB goes up by one, he
                gets a +1 to fort saves (for being a second level barbarian), and I have
                no idea if he gets a further +1 to will saves or not.

                And now my head hurts.

                I, of course, don't let Gessalt characters multiclass except singly into
                a prestige class, because it makes my head hurt lots.

                --
                Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
              • Scott
                This is honestly a feature I d like to see. In my own campaign character level is the sum of experience spent on the character in classes (each seperately),
                Message 7 of 7 , May 13 10:03 AM
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                  This is honestly a feature I'd like to see. In my own campaign
                  character level is the sum of experience spent on the character in
                  classes (each seperately), extra feats, and special abilities (ala
                  BESMd20.)

                  Characer: Bob begins life as an Elf Wizard

                  * Bob earns 1,000xp (required amount for my game) and decides to
                  purchase level 1 Fighter. Total spent experience is 1,000xp and Bob
                  is a 1 Wizard/1 Fighter and a level 2 character. At this point he
                  has the best value of hit points, attack bonus, fort save, and so on,
                  between the two. They are non-cumulative.

                  * Bob earns 1,000xp more (total earned 2,000, unspent 1,000) and
                  decides he wants to increase his wizard level by 1. Since 1,000xp is
                  enough to do it, he does an advances to be Wiz2/Fig1, and with
                  2,000xp spent, hasn't spent *quite* enough to qualify as a 3rd level
                  character (which requires 3,000xp total spent on the character.)

                  * Bob decides he wants to increase his fighter level to 2 now. So he
                  saves up the 1,000xp needed to increase a class from level 1 to level
                  2. This done, he advances fighter to 2, and has spent a total of
                  3,000xp on the character, making him a 3rd level character (eligable
                  for a new feat), a 2nd level wizard, and a 2nd level fighter.

                  At all times, all normally "stacked" abilities are instead taken as
                  maximum of each value recorded by class. Bob, above, would have the
                  hit points and attack bonus of a warrior, as well as the fort/ref
                  saves if memory recalls, while the will save and spell use would be
                  based on wizard.

                  There is no maximum character level, although maximum class levels
                  exist. Characters may decide to continue levelling in a
                  single "class column" which in turn means new classes added in are
                  added on and work identically to the standard rules. With an open-
                  ended levelling system (not using epic rules) maximum class level for
                  base classes is 20, but a level 30 character could be 20 (base class)
                  and 10 (prestige class) for instance, or 10 (class1) 10 (class2) 10
                  (class3).

                  All of this, of course, adds a fair amount of complexity to the
                  program. Since I use the wealth system, similar to d20 modern, and
                  use armor as DR instead of DV (or AC), classes also get a DB (defense
                  bonus) in addition to their AB (attack bonus). I also record a MB
                  (magic bonus) and PB (psionic bonus) where appropriate that like
                  everything else is "best of" when using a gestalt-style multiclass,
                  and replaces trying to calculate caster level. It can be improved via
                  feats.

                  Lastly, support for manasytems would be nice, along with variant
                  psionic power point systems, and some support for the SSI table-top
                  version of the EverQuest RPG would be sweet.
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