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Re: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces of the XML draft

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  • David Finch
    ... IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a not a wiki word operator :( -- David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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      dlm1065 wrote:
      > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
      > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
      > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
      > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
      > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

      IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

      --
      David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
      Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
      Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Keith Davies
      ... Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though. Keith -- Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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        On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 07:47:00PM +0100, David Finch wrote:
        > dlm1065 wrote:
        > > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
        > > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
        > > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
        > > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
        > > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
        >
        > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
        > operator :(

        Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though.


        Keith
        --
        Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
        keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
        me: "What do you say?"
        Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
      • Eddy Anthony
        ... But there is, from the Wiki documentation: Escape sequence Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes it possible to easily
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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          On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@...> wrote:

          > dlm1065 wrote:
          >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
          >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
          >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
          >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
          >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
          >
          > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

          But there is, from the Wiki documentation:

          Escape sequence

          Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes
          it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off other
          special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple input
          lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For example,
          space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the next =] to
          be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program listings).
          --
          ~ Eddy
          ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
          ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
        • dlm1065
          ... on Y! ... see ... were ... operator :( ... This makes ... other ... input ... example, ... next =] to ... listings). ... Yes I thought that would work too.
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 7, 2004
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            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
            > On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@i...> wrote:
            >
            > > dlm1065 wrote:
            > >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here
            on Y!
            > >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
            > >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will
            see
            > >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names
            were
            > >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
            > >
            > > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
            operator :(
            >
            > But there is, from the Wiki documentation:
            >
            > Escape sequence
            >
            > Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki.
            This makes
            > it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off
            other
            > special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple
            input
            > lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For
            example,
            > space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the
            next =] to
            > be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program
            listings).
            > --
            > ~ Eddy
            > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
            > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

            Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes ALL
            formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
            stream of data???
            Can I say even more unreadable??
            Of course you could edit every line individually and do it but that
            would take three times as long as composing the code. Also I may be
            not understanding something in the wiki docs as I never used it
            before I installed it, but the [= & the =] took that xml file and
            made it totally unreadable
          • andargor
            ... ALL ... Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file... BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level XML programming language being worked over at
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
              > Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
              ALL
              > formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
              > stream of data???
              > Can I say even more unreadable??

              Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...

              BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
              language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)

              A three-way merge seems unevitable.

              Personally, I prefer high-level generic XML like yours, which can be
              XSLT'ed down to whatever level wanted.

              I stole it for my own experiments ;)

              Andargor
            • Frugal
              ... I think the word you are looking for in impossible ;O) The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the ground
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                <quote who="andargor">
                > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                > ALL
                >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                >> stream of data???
                >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                >
                > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                >
                > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                >
                > A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)

                The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the current
                system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be used
                with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low level
                XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different project
                just with the original data entry (LST) in common.

                The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data layer,
                the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will result in a
                complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation layer.

                I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers (about 50
                man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they are so
                incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room reimplementation
                will ever separate the 3 layers.

                --
                regards,
                Frugal
                -OS Chimp
              • andargor
                ... programming ... current ... used ... level ... project ... layer, ... result in a ... layer. ... (about 50 ... are so ... reimplementation ... I share your
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 9, 2004
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frugal" <frugal@p...> wrote:
                  >
                  > <quote who="andargor">
                  > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                  > >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                  > > ALL
                  > >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                  > >> stream of data???
                  > >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                  > >
                  > > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                  > >
                  > > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML
                  programming
                  > > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                  > >
                  > > A three-way merge seems unevitable.
                  >
                  > I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)
                  >
                  > The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                  > ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the
                  current
                  > system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be
                  used
                  > with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low
                  level
                  > XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different
                  project
                  > just with the original data entry (LST) in common.
                  >
                  > The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data
                  layer,
                  > the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                  > current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will
                  result in a
                  > complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation
                  layer.
                  >
                  > I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers
                  (about 50
                  > man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they
                  are so
                  > incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room
                  reimplementation
                  > will ever separate the 3 layers.
                  >
                  > --
                  > regards,
                  > Frugal
                  > -OS Chimp

                  I share your views completely, except that I would add a separation
                  between data and code (e.g. what a feat "is" versus what a
                  feat "does")

                  In any case, your export of the existing LST data is a step in the
                  right direction. It facilitates the parsing of the data to transform
                  it into an application-specific format, such as your XML engine
                  approach.

                  The target should be to transform the LST data to a high-level
                  format. I believe you are saying as much above, since the XML engine
                  approach is very specific and that format would be the end product of
                  any transformation, and would be difficult to transform into anything
                  else that is generic.

                  So what has Doug and the BoD to say about all this? What's the plan
                  for PCGen?

                  Having toyed with the current code myself, I agree that a total
                  revamp is necessary. PCGen 6.0.0 would be an entirely new engine,
                  then?

                  I don't see any benefit in having intermediate steps towards this.
                  Half-measures, such as using your export into the existing engine
                  (tweaked for it) only would lead to wasted effort. XML is a new
                  model, and needs a new approach.

                  If there is a vote to be made, rewrite the whole thing, line up the
                  data monkeys with a generic XML format, and in the meantime provide
                  an XML to LST converter for legacy purposes until the new engine is
                  ready.

                  Whatever you decide, it'll be a step in the right direction (away
                  from the statu quo) ;)

                  Andargor
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