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Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces of the XML draft

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  • dlm1065
    ... Mod is? ... MaxDex is a defined var not a modifier so therefore I handled it differently. Look under the stat dex see the . I did it
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Jayme Cox <jayme@r...> wrote:
      > dlm1065 wrote:
      > > The wiki
      > >
      > > http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
      >
      > There are things like:
      >
      > Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod))</value>
      >
      > Why is "Max Dex" not prefaced with something like the "Stat.Dex
      Mod" is?
      > Is "Max Dex" an absolute value calculated somewhere else? Is it a
      > property of the armor you are wearing or the load you are carrying?
      >
      > It's even more confusing when you have ones like:
      >
      > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
      >
      > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?


      MaxDex is a "defined" var not a modifier so therefore I handled it
      differently. Look under the stat dex see the <define></define>. I did
      it differently purposely. MaxDex is a global var that is associated
      with a stat so it made sense to define it within the stat but it is
      not a stat modifier.

      All the values in the Calc are within the AC object. Since there were
      no external references I did not add the "<object>." it seemed to
      make the formulas extremely bulky to add explicit references when the
      values where all internal to the object, so I just added the explicit
      reference to point to values outside of the object.
    • dlm1065
      ... spaces. ... or ... Admin ... Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y! is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, David Finch <david.finch@i...> wrote:
        > Jayme Cox wrote:
        > > dlm1065 wrote:
        > >>The wiki
        > >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
        > > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
        > > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?
        >
        > I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have
        spaces.
        > "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language
        or
        > algebra you are used to.
        >
        > --
        > David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net
        Admin
        > Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
        > Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
        is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
        samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
        there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
        wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

        AbcD
        becomes formated
        Abc D?

        take a look at the xml in the files here and give me a responce to
        them thanks
      • David Finch
        ... IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a not a wiki word operator :( -- David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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          dlm1065 wrote:
          > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
          > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
          > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
          > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
          > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

          IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

          --
          David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
          Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
          Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Keith Davies
          ... Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though. Keith -- Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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            On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 07:47:00PM +0100, David Finch wrote:
            > dlm1065 wrote:
            > > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
            > > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
            > > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
            > > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
            > > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
            >
            > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
            > operator :(

            Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though.


            Keith
            --
            Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
            keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
            me: "What do you say?"
            Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
          • Eddy Anthony
            ... But there is, from the Wiki documentation: Escape sequence Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes it possible to easily
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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              On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@...> wrote:

              > dlm1065 wrote:
              >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
              >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
              >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
              >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
              >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
              >
              > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

              But there is, from the Wiki documentation:

              Escape sequence

              Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes
              it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off other
              special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple input
              lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For example,
              space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the next =] to
              be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program listings).
              --
              ~ Eddy
              ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
              ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
            • dlm1065
              ... on Y! ... see ... were ... operator :( ... This makes ... other ... input ... example, ... next =] to ... listings). ... Yes I thought that would work too.
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 7, 2004
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
                > On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@i...> wrote:
                >
                > > dlm1065 wrote:
                > >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here
                on Y!
                > >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                > >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will
                see
                > >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names
                were
                > >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                > >
                > > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                operator :(
                >
                > But there is, from the Wiki documentation:
                >
                > Escape sequence
                >
                > Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki.
                This makes
                > it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off
                other
                > special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple
                input
                > lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For
                example,
                > space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the
                next =] to
                > be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program
                listings).
                > --
                > ~ Eddy
                > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

                Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes ALL
                formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                stream of data???
                Can I say even more unreadable??
                Of course you could edit every line individually and do it but that
                would take three times as long as composing the code. Also I may be
                not understanding something in the wiki docs as I never used it
                before I installed it, but the [= & the =] took that xml file and
                made it totally unreadable
              • andargor
                ... ALL ... Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file... BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level XML programming language being worked over at
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                  > Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                  ALL
                  > formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                  > stream of data???
                  > Can I say even more unreadable??

                  Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...

                  BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                  language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)

                  A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                  Personally, I prefer high-level generic XML like yours, which can be
                  XSLT'ed down to whatever level wanted.

                  I stole it for my own experiments ;)

                  Andargor
                • Frugal
                  ... I think the word you are looking for in impossible ;O) The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the ground
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                    <quote who="andargor">
                    > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                    >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                    > ALL
                    >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                    >> stream of data???
                    >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                    >
                    > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                    >
                    > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                    > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                    >
                    > A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                    I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)

                    The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                    ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the current
                    system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be used
                    with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low level
                    XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different project
                    just with the original data entry (LST) in common.

                    The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data layer,
                    the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                    current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will result in a
                    complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation layer.

                    I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers (about 50
                    man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they are so
                    incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room reimplementation
                    will ever separate the 3 layers.

                    --
                    regards,
                    Frugal
                    -OS Chimp
                  • andargor
                    ... programming ... current ... used ... level ... project ... layer, ... result in a ... layer. ... (about 50 ... are so ... reimplementation ... I share your
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 9, 2004
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                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frugal" <frugal@p...> wrote:
                      >
                      > <quote who="andargor">
                      > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                      > >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                      > > ALL
                      > >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                      > >> stream of data???
                      > >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                      > >
                      > > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                      > >
                      > > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML
                      programming
                      > > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                      > >
                      > > A three-way merge seems unevitable.
                      >
                      > I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)
                      >
                      > The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                      > ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the
                      current
                      > system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be
                      used
                      > with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low
                      level
                      > XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different
                      project
                      > just with the original data entry (LST) in common.
                      >
                      > The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data
                      layer,
                      > the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                      > current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will
                      result in a
                      > complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation
                      layer.
                      >
                      > I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers
                      (about 50
                      > man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they
                      are so
                      > incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room
                      reimplementation
                      > will ever separate the 3 layers.
                      >
                      > --
                      > regards,
                      > Frugal
                      > -OS Chimp

                      I share your views completely, except that I would add a separation
                      between data and code (e.g. what a feat "is" versus what a
                      feat "does")

                      In any case, your export of the existing LST data is a step in the
                      right direction. It facilitates the parsing of the data to transform
                      it into an application-specific format, such as your XML engine
                      approach.

                      The target should be to transform the LST data to a high-level
                      format. I believe you are saying as much above, since the XML engine
                      approach is very specific and that format would be the end product of
                      any transformation, and would be difficult to transform into anything
                      else that is generic.

                      So what has Doug and the BoD to say about all this? What's the plan
                      for PCGen?

                      Having toyed with the current code myself, I agree that a total
                      revamp is necessary. PCGen 6.0.0 would be an entirely new engine,
                      then?

                      I don't see any benefit in having intermediate steps towards this.
                      Half-measures, such as using your export into the existing engine
                      (tweaked for it) only would lead to wasted effort. XML is a new
                      model, and needs a new approach.

                      If there is a vote to be made, rewrite the whole thing, line up the
                      data monkeys with a generic XML format, and in the meantime provide
                      an XML to LST converter for legacy purposes until the new engine is
                      ready.

                      Whatever you decide, it'll be a step in the right direction (away
                      from the statu quo) ;)

                      Andargor
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