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RE: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces of the XML draft

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  • Ross M. Lodge
    I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I would think you d want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to valid JEP
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 3, 2004
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      I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I
      would think you'd want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to
      valid JEP variable names.

      Ross
      -----Original Message-----
      From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
      Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:49 PM
      To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces
      of the XML draft


      Jayme Cox wrote:
      > dlm1065 wrote:
      >>The wiki
      >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
      > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
      > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?

      I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces.
      "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language or
      algebra you are used to.

      --
      David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
      Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
      Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • dlm1065
      ... Mod is? ... MaxDex is a defined var not a modifier so therefore I handled it differently. Look under the stat dex see the . I did it
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Jayme Cox <jayme@r...> wrote:
        > dlm1065 wrote:
        > > The wiki
        > >
        > > http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
        >
        > There are things like:
        >
        > Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod))</value>
        >
        > Why is "Max Dex" not prefaced with something like the "Stat.Dex
        Mod" is?
        > Is "Max Dex" an absolute value calculated somewhere else? Is it a
        > property of the armor you are wearing or the load you are carrying?
        >
        > It's even more confusing when you have ones like:
        >
        > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
        >
        > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?


        MaxDex is a "defined" var not a modifier so therefore I handled it
        differently. Look under the stat dex see the <define></define>. I did
        it differently purposely. MaxDex is a global var that is associated
        with a stat so it made sense to define it within the stat but it is
        not a stat modifier.

        All the values in the Calc are within the AC object. Since there were
        no external references I did not add the "<object>." it seemed to
        make the formulas extremely bulky to add explicit references when the
        values where all internal to the object, so I just added the explicit
        reference to point to values outside of the object.
      • dlm1065
        ... spaces. ... or ... Admin ... Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y! is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, David Finch <david.finch@i...> wrote:
          > Jayme Cox wrote:
          > > dlm1065 wrote:
          > >>The wiki
          > >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
          > > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
          > > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?
          >
          > I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have
          spaces.
          > "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language
          or
          > algebra you are used to.
          >
          > --
          > David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net
          Admin
          > Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
          > Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
          is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
          samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
          there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
          wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

          AbcD
          becomes formated
          Abc D?

          take a look at the xml in the files here and give me a responce to
          them thanks
        • David Finch
          ... IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a not a wiki word operator :( -- David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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            dlm1065 wrote:
            > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
            > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
            > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
            > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
            > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

            IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

            --
            David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
            Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
            Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Keith Davies
            ... Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though. Keith -- Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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              On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 07:47:00PM +0100, David Finch wrote:
              > dlm1065 wrote:
              > > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
              > > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
              > > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
              > > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
              > > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
              >
              > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
              > operator :(

              Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though.


              Keith
              --
              Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
              keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
              me: "What do you say?"
              Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
            • Eddy Anthony
              ... But there is, from the Wiki documentation: Escape sequence Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes it possible to easily
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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                On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@...> wrote:

                > dlm1065 wrote:
                >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                >
                > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

                But there is, from the Wiki documentation:

                Escape sequence

                Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes
                it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off other
                special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple input
                lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For example,
                space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the next =] to
                be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program listings).
                --
                ~ Eddy
                ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
              • dlm1065
                ... on Y! ... see ... were ... operator :( ... This makes ... other ... input ... example, ... next =] to ... listings). ... Yes I thought that would work too.
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 7, 2004
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                  --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
                  > On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@i...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > dlm1065 wrote:
                  > >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here
                  on Y!
                  > >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                  > >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will
                  see
                  > >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names
                  were
                  > >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                  > >
                  > > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                  operator :(
                  >
                  > But there is, from the Wiki documentation:
                  >
                  > Escape sequence
                  >
                  > Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki.
                  This makes
                  > it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off
                  other
                  > special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple
                  input
                  > lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For
                  example,
                  > space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the
                  next =] to
                  > be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program
                  listings).
                  > --
                  > ~ Eddy
                  > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                  > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

                  Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes ALL
                  formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                  stream of data???
                  Can I say even more unreadable??
                  Of course you could edit every line individually and do it but that
                  would take three times as long as composing the code. Also I may be
                  not understanding something in the wiki docs as I never used it
                  before I installed it, but the [= & the =] took that xml file and
                  made it totally unreadable
                • andargor
                  ... ALL ... Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file... BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level XML programming language being worked over at
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                    > Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                    ALL
                    > formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                    > stream of data???
                    > Can I say even more unreadable??

                    Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...

                    BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                    language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)

                    A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                    Personally, I prefer high-level generic XML like yours, which can be
                    XSLT'ed down to whatever level wanted.

                    I stole it for my own experiments ;)

                    Andargor
                  • Frugal
                    ... I think the word you are looking for in impossible ;O) The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the ground
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                      <quote who="andargor">
                      > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                      >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                      > ALL
                      >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                      >> stream of data???
                      >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                      >
                      > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                      >
                      > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                      > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                      >
                      > A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                      I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)

                      The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                      ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the current
                      system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be used
                      with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low level
                      XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different project
                      just with the original data entry (LST) in common.

                      The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data layer,
                      the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                      current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will result in a
                      complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation layer.

                      I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers (about 50
                      man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they are so
                      incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room reimplementation
                      will ever separate the 3 layers.

                      --
                      regards,
                      Frugal
                      -OS Chimp
                    • andargor
                      ... programming ... current ... used ... level ... project ... layer, ... result in a ... layer. ... (about 50 ... are so ... reimplementation ... I share your
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 9, 2004
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frugal" <frugal@p...> wrote:
                        >
                        > <quote who="andargor">
                        > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                        > >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                        > > ALL
                        > >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                        > >> stream of data???
                        > >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                        > >
                        > > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                        > >
                        > > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML
                        programming
                        > > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                        > >
                        > > A three-way merge seems unevitable.
                        >
                        > I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)
                        >
                        > The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                        > ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the
                        current
                        > system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be
                        used
                        > with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low
                        level
                        > XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different
                        project
                        > just with the original data entry (LST) in common.
                        >
                        > The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data
                        layer,
                        > the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                        > current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will
                        result in a
                        > complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation
                        layer.
                        >
                        > I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers
                        (about 50
                        > man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they
                        are so
                        > incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room
                        reimplementation
                        > will ever separate the 3 layers.
                        >
                        > --
                        > regards,
                        > Frugal
                        > -OS Chimp

                        I share your views completely, except that I would add a separation
                        between data and code (e.g. what a feat "is" versus what a
                        feat "does")

                        In any case, your export of the existing LST data is a step in the
                        right direction. It facilitates the parsing of the data to transform
                        it into an application-specific format, such as your XML engine
                        approach.

                        The target should be to transform the LST data to a high-level
                        format. I believe you are saying as much above, since the XML engine
                        approach is very specific and that format would be the end product of
                        any transformation, and would be difficult to transform into anything
                        else that is generic.

                        So what has Doug and the BoD to say about all this? What's the plan
                        for PCGen?

                        Having toyed with the current code myself, I agree that a total
                        revamp is necessary. PCGen 6.0.0 would be an entirely new engine,
                        then?

                        I don't see any benefit in having intermediate steps towards this.
                        Half-measures, such as using your export into the existing engine
                        (tweaked for it) only would lead to wasted effort. XML is a new
                        model, and needs a new approach.

                        If there is a vote to be made, rewrite the whole thing, line up the
                        data monkeys with a generic XML format, and in the meantime provide
                        an XML to LST converter for legacy purposes until the new engine is
                        ready.

                        Whatever you decide, it'll be a step in the right direction (away
                        from the statu quo) ;)

                        Andargor
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