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Re: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces of the XML draft

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  • David Finch
    ... I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces. Arm B+Shld B does not read well in whatever programming language or algebra you
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 2, 2004
      Jayme Cox wrote:
      > dlm1065 wrote:
      >>The wiki
      >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
      > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
      > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?

      I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces.
      "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language or
      algebra you are used to.

      --
      David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
      Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
      Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ross M. Lodge
      I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I would think you d want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to valid JEP
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 3, 2004
        I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I
        would think you'd want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to
        valid JEP variable names.

        Ross
        -----Original Message-----
        From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:49 PM
        To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces
        of the XML draft


        Jayme Cox wrote:
        > dlm1065 wrote:
        >>The wiki
        >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
        > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
        > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?

        I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces.
        "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language or
        algebra you are used to.

        --
        David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
        Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
        Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dlm1065
        ... Mod is? ... MaxDex is a defined var not a modifier so therefore I handled it differently. Look under the stat dex see the . I did it
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Jayme Cox <jayme@r...> wrote:
          > dlm1065 wrote:
          > > The wiki
          > >
          > > http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
          >
          > There are things like:
          >
          > Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod))</value>
          >
          > Why is "Max Dex" not prefaced with something like the "Stat.Dex
          Mod" is?
          > Is "Max Dex" an absolute value calculated somewhere else? Is it a
          > property of the armor you are wearing or the load you are carrying?
          >
          > It's even more confusing when you have ones like:
          >
          > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
          >
          > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?


          MaxDex is a "defined" var not a modifier so therefore I handled it
          differently. Look under the stat dex see the <define></define>. I did
          it differently purposely. MaxDex is a global var that is associated
          with a stat so it made sense to define it within the stat but it is
          not a stat modifier.

          All the values in the Calc are within the AC object. Since there were
          no external references I did not add the "<object>." it seemed to
          make the formulas extremely bulky to add explicit references when the
          values where all internal to the object, so I just added the explicit
          reference to point to values outside of the object.
        • dlm1065
          ... spaces. ... or ... Admin ... Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y! is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
            --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, David Finch <david.finch@i...> wrote:
            > Jayme Cox wrote:
            > > dlm1065 wrote:
            > >>The wiki
            > >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
            > > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
            > > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?
            >
            > I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have
            spaces.
            > "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language
            or
            > algebra you are used to.
            >
            > --
            > David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net
            Admin
            > Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
            > Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
            is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
            samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
            there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
            wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

            AbcD
            becomes formated
            Abc D?

            take a look at the xml in the files here and give me a responce to
            them thanks
          • David Finch
            ... IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a not a wiki word operator :( -- David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
              dlm1065 wrote:
              > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
              > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
              > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
              > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
              > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

              IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

              --
              David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
              Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
              Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Keith Davies
              ... Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though. Keith -- Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
                On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 07:47:00PM +0100, David Finch wrote:
                > dlm1065 wrote:
                > > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                > > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                > > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                > > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                > > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                >
                > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                > operator :(

                Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though.


                Keith
                --
                Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
                keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
                me: "What do you say?"
                Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
              • Eddy Anthony
                ... But there is, from the Wiki documentation: Escape sequence Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes it possible to easily
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
                  On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@...> wrote:

                  > dlm1065 wrote:
                  >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                  >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                  >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                  >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                  >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                  >
                  > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

                  But there is, from the Wiki documentation:

                  Escape sequence

                  Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes
                  it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off other
                  special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple input
                  lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For example,
                  space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the next =] to
                  be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program listings).
                  --
                  ~ Eddy
                  ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                  ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
                • dlm1065
                  ... on Y! ... see ... were ... operator :( ... This makes ... other ... input ... example, ... next =] to ... listings). ... Yes I thought that would work too.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 7, 2004
                    --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
                    > On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@i...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > dlm1065 wrote:
                    > >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here
                    on Y!
                    > >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                    > >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will
                    see
                    > >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names
                    were
                    > >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                    > >
                    > > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                    operator :(
                    >
                    > But there is, from the Wiki documentation:
                    >
                    > Escape sequence
                    >
                    > Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki.
                    This makes
                    > it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off
                    other
                    > special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple
                    input
                    > lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For
                    example,
                    > space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the
                    next =] to
                    > be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program
                    listings).
                    > --
                    > ~ Eddy
                    > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                    > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

                    Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes ALL
                    formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                    stream of data???
                    Can I say even more unreadable??
                    Of course you could edit every line individually and do it but that
                    would take three times as long as composing the code. Also I may be
                    not understanding something in the wiki docs as I never used it
                    before I installed it, but the [= & the =] took that xml file and
                    made it totally unreadable
                  • andargor
                    ... ALL ... Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file... BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level XML programming language being worked over at
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
                      --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                      > Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                      ALL
                      > formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                      > stream of data???
                      > Can I say even more unreadable??

                      Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...

                      BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                      language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)

                      A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                      Personally, I prefer high-level generic XML like yours, which can be
                      XSLT'ed down to whatever level wanted.

                      I stole it for my own experiments ;)

                      Andargor
                    • Frugal
                      ... I think the word you are looking for in impossible ;O) The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the ground
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
                        <quote who="andargor">
                        > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                        >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                        > ALL
                        >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                        >> stream of data???
                        >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                        >
                        > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                        >
                        > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                        > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                        >
                        > A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                        I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)

                        The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                        ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the current
                        system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be used
                        with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low level
                        XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different project
                        just with the original data entry (LST) in common.

                        The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data layer,
                        the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                        current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will result in a
                        complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation layer.

                        I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers (about 50
                        man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they are so
                        incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room reimplementation
                        will ever separate the 3 layers.

                        --
                        regards,
                        Frugal
                        -OS Chimp
                      • andargor
                        ... programming ... current ... used ... level ... project ... layer, ... result in a ... layer. ... (about 50 ... are so ... reimplementation ... I share your
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 9, 2004
                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frugal" <frugal@p...> wrote:
                          >
                          > <quote who="andargor">
                          > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                          > >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                          > > ALL
                          > >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                          > >> stream of data???
                          > >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                          > >
                          > > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                          > >
                          > > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML
                          programming
                          > > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                          > >
                          > > A three-way merge seems unevitable.
                          >
                          > I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)
                          >
                          > The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                          > ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the
                          current
                          > system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be
                          used
                          > with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low
                          level
                          > XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different
                          project
                          > just with the original data entry (LST) in common.
                          >
                          > The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data
                          layer,
                          > the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                          > current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will
                          result in a
                          > complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation
                          layer.
                          >
                          > I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers
                          (about 50
                          > man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they
                          are so
                          > incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room
                          reimplementation
                          > will ever separate the 3 layers.
                          >
                          > --
                          > regards,
                          > Frugal
                          > -OS Chimp

                          I share your views completely, except that I would add a separation
                          between data and code (e.g. what a feat "is" versus what a
                          feat "does")

                          In any case, your export of the existing LST data is a step in the
                          right direction. It facilitates the parsing of the data to transform
                          it into an application-specific format, such as your XML engine
                          approach.

                          The target should be to transform the LST data to a high-level
                          format. I believe you are saying as much above, since the XML engine
                          approach is very specific and that format would be the end product of
                          any transformation, and would be difficult to transform into anything
                          else that is generic.

                          So what has Doug and the BoD to say about all this? What's the plan
                          for PCGen?

                          Having toyed with the current code myself, I agree that a total
                          revamp is necessary. PCGen 6.0.0 would be an entirely new engine,
                          then?

                          I don't see any benefit in having intermediate steps towards this.
                          Half-measures, such as using your export into the existing engine
                          (tweaked for it) only would lead to wasted effort. XML is a new
                          model, and needs a new approach.

                          If there is a vote to be made, rewrite the whole thing, line up the
                          data monkeys with a generic XML format, and in the meantime provide
                          an XML to LST converter for legacy purposes until the new engine is
                          ready.

                          Whatever you decide, it'll be a step in the right direction (away
                          from the statu quo) ;)

                          Andargor
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