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[DATA] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces of the XML draft please do so

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  • dlm1065
    The wiki http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder is getting me exactly zip to little feedback so I am posting the 1st pieces of
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 2, 2004
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      The wiki

      http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder

      is getting me exactly zip to little feedback so I am posting the 1st
      pieces of sample XML lst code here in the file section under the
      folder XML the file names are abilities and capabilities.

      Of the the large group(3) that has even said anything (after being
      prodded to look). 1 person commented on it being to verbose. Probably
      true for the time being I would like to keep it that way but as we get
      this more refined then we can pare done the overkill.

      I would appreciate it if java and xml people both would send me
      comments at dlm1065@... subject [DATA-XML] with any
      suggestions or comments. Even the "Are you nuts?" kind.
    • Jayme Cox
      ... There are things like: Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod)) Why is Max Dex not prefaced with something like the Stat.Dex Mod is? Is Max Dex an
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 2, 2004
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        dlm1065 wrote:
        > The wiki
        >
        > http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder

        There are things like:

        Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod))</value>

        Why is "Max Dex" not prefaced with something like the "Stat.Dex Mod" is?
        Is "Max Dex" an absolute value calculated somewhere else? Is it a
        property of the armor you are wearing or the load you are carrying?

        It's even more confusing when you have ones like:

        Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>

        What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?
      • David Finch
        ... I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces. Arm B+Shld B does not read well in whatever programming language or algebra you
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 2, 2004
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          Jayme Cox wrote:
          > dlm1065 wrote:
          >>The wiki
          >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
          > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
          > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?

          I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces.
          "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language or
          algebra you are used to.

          --
          David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
          Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
          Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ross M. Lodge
          I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I would think you d want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to valid JEP
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 3, 2004
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            I have to agree, especially if you expect to have JEP do the parsing. I
            would think you'd want to restrict variable names in the calc statements to
            valid JEP variable names.

            Ross
            -----Original Message-----
            From: David Finch [mailto:david.finch@...]
            Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:49 PM
            To: pcgen@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [pcgen] Re: [DATA-XML] heres your chnace to review 2 pieces
            of the XML draft


            Jayme Cox wrote:
            > dlm1065 wrote:
            >>The wiki
            >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
            > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
            > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?

            I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have spaces.
            "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language or
            algebra you are used to.

            --
            David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
            Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
            Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            PCGen's FAQ:
            http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/current/_docs/



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dlm1065
            ... Mod is? ... MaxDex is a defined var not a modifier so therefore I handled it differently. Look under the stat dex see the . I did it
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Jayme Cox <jayme@r...> wrote:
              > dlm1065 wrote:
              > > The wiki
              > >
              > > http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
              >
              > There are things like:
              >
              > Calc(MIN(Max Dex,Stat.Dex Mod))</value>
              >
              > Why is "Max Dex" not prefaced with something like the "Stat.Dex
              Mod" is?
              > Is "Max Dex" an absolute value calculated somewhere else? Is it a
              > property of the armor you are wearing or the load you are carrying?
              >
              > It's even more confusing when you have ones like:
              >
              > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
              >
              > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?


              MaxDex is a "defined" var not a modifier so therefore I handled it
              differently. Look under the stat dex see the <define></define>. I did
              it differently purposely. MaxDex is a global var that is associated
              with a stat so it made sense to define it within the stat but it is
              not a stat modifier.

              All the values in the Calc are within the AC object. Since there were
              no external references I did not add the "<object>." it seemed to
              make the formulas extremely bulky to add explicit references when the
              values where all internal to the object, so I just added the explicit
              reference to point to values outside of the object.
            • dlm1065
              ... spaces. ... or ... Admin ... Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y! is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 4, 2004
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                --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, David Finch <david.finch@i...> wrote:
                > Jayme Cox wrote:
                > > dlm1065 wrote:
                > >>The wiki
                > >>http://pcgendm.sourceforge.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DLM/WorkingFolder
                > > Calc(Arm B+Shld B+Size M+Nat AC+Defl M+Misc M)</value>
                > > What is "Misc M"? Shouldn't that be "AC.Misc M"?
                >
                > I know that this is XML and all but why do variables have to have
                spaces.
                > "Arm B+Shld B" does not read well in whatever programming language
                or
                > algebra you are used to.
                >
                > --
                > David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net
                Admin
                > Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
                > Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

                AbcD
                becomes formated
                Abc D?

                take a look at the xml in the files here and give me a responce to
                them thanks
              • David Finch
                ... IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a not a wiki word operator :( -- David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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                  dlm1065 wrote:
                  > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                  > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                  > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                  > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                  > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example

                  IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

                  --
                  David Allan Finch - Unix/X/C++/Java Programmer, and Sys/Mail/DB/Net Admin
                  Sun(tm) Certified System Administrator for Solaris(tm) 2.6
                  Development Department - IPA Systems Ltd - Salfords England EU


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Keith Davies
                  ... Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though. Keith -- Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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                    On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 07:47:00PM +0100, David Finch wrote:
                    > dlm1065 wrote:
                    > > Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                    > > is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                    > > samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                    > > there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                    > > wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                    >
                    > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                    > operator :(

                    Actually, I think it does. I forget offhand what it is, though.


                    Keith
                    --
                    Keith Davies I gave my 2yo daughter a strawberry
                    keith.davies@... Naomi: "Strawberry!"
                    me: "What do you say?"
                    Naomi: "*MY* strawberry!"
                  • Eddy Anthony
                    ... But there is, from the Wiki documentation: Escape sequence Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes it possible to easily
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 5, 2004
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                      On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@...> wrote:

                      > dlm1065 wrote:
                      >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here on Y!
                      >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                      >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will see
                      >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names were
                      >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                      >
                      > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word' operator :(

                      But there is, from the Wiki documentation:

                      Escape sequence

                      Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki. This makes
                      it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off other
                      special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple input
                      lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For example,
                      space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the next =] to
                      be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program listings).
                      --
                      ~ Eddy
                      ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                      ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
                    • dlm1065
                      ... on Y! ... see ... were ... operator :( ... This makes ... other ... input ... example, ... next =] to ... listings). ... Yes I thought that would work too.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 7, 2004
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                        --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@m...> wrote:
                        > On 4/5/04 2:47 PM, "David Finch" <david.finch@i...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > dlm1065 wrote:
                        > >> Other than a lack of feedbackt he reason I U/L the files here
                        on Y!
                        > >> is in part the issues the WIKI formating is causing to the xml
                        > >> samples. If you pull the xml files in the folder here you will
                        see
                        > >> there are no spaces inside the names. The wiki thought the names
                        were
                        > >> wiki words and therefore it formatted them as wikiwords. Example
                        > >
                        > > IC thanks. Shame that the wiki does not have a 'not a wiki word'
                        operator :(
                        >
                        > But there is, from the Wiki documentation:
                        >
                        > Escape sequence
                        >
                        > Anything placed between [= and =] is not interpreted by PmWiki.
                        This makes
                        > it possible to easily do WikiWords that are not links and turn off
                        other
                        > special formatting interpretation. The [= and =] can span multiple
                        input
                        > lines, allowing effects to be applied to multiple input lines. For
                        example,
                        > space+[= at the beginning of a line will cause the text up to the
                        next =] to
                        > be monospace and uninterpreted by PmWiki (useful for program
                        listings).
                        > --
                        > ~ Eddy
                        > ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
                        > ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second

                        Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes ALL
                        formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                        stream of data???
                        Can I say even more unreadable??
                        Of course you could edit every line individually and do it but that
                        would take three times as long as composing the code. Also I may be
                        not understanding something in the wiki docs as I never used it
                        before I installed it, but the [= & the =] took that xml file and
                        made it totally unreadable
                      • andargor
                        ... ALL ... Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file... BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level XML programming language being worked over at
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                          --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                          > Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                          ALL
                          > formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                          > stream of data???
                          > Can I say even more unreadable??

                          Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...

                          BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                          language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)

                          A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                          Personally, I prefer high-level generic XML like yours, which can be
                          XSLT'ed down to whatever level wanted.

                          I stole it for my own experiments ;)

                          Andargor
                        • Frugal
                          ... I think the word you are looking for in impossible ;O) The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the ground
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 8, 2004
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                            <quote who="andargor">
                            > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                            >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                            > ALL
                            >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                            >> stream of data???
                            >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                            >
                            > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                            >
                            > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML programming
                            > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                            >
                            > A three-way merge seems unevitable.

                            I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)

                            The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                            ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the current
                            system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be used
                            with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low level
                            XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different project
                            just with the original data entry (LST) in common.

                            The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data layer,
                            the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                            current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will result in a
                            complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation layer.

                            I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers (about 50
                            man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they are so
                            incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room reimplementation
                            will ever separate the 3 layers.

                            --
                            regards,
                            Frugal
                            -OS Chimp
                          • andargor
                            ... programming ... current ... used ... level ... project ... layer, ... result in a ... layer. ... (about 50 ... are so ... reimplementation ... I share your
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 9, 2004
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                              --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "Frugal" <frugal@p...> wrote:
                              >
                              > <quote who="andargor">
                              > > --- In pcgen@yahoogroups.com, "dlm1065" <dlm1065@h...> wrote:
                              > >> Yes I thought that would work too. The only thing is that removes
                              > > ALL
                              > >> formatting not just the wiki word can we say no returns just one
                              > >> stream of data???
                              > >> Can I say even more unreadable??
                              > >
                              > > Heheh. Then just put a link in to the file...
                              > >
                              > > BTW, your model differs greatly from the low-level "XML
                              programming
                              > > language" being worked over at PCGen-XML, and Frugal's export. :)
                              > >
                              > > A three-way merge seems unevitable.
                              >
                              > I think the word you are looking for in 'impossible' ;O)
                              >
                              > The low level XML design will require PCGen being rewritten from the
                              > ground up. Doug's high level schema can be shoehorned into the
                              current
                              > system, but there is absolutely no way the low level schema can be
                              used
                              > with the current code base. I am personally never expecting the low
                              level
                              > XML design to be used in PCGen, it would be a completely different
                              project
                              > just with the original data entry (LST) in common.
                              >
                              > The current design of PCgen has zero separation between the data
                              layer,
                              > the application layer and the presentation layer. As a result of the
                              > current arcitecture radiacally redesigning the data layer will
                              result in a
                              > complete rewrite of the application layer and the presentation
                              layer.
                              >
                              > I have tried on a number of occasions to separate the 3 layers
                              (about 50
                              > man hours on a fast machine with good refactoring tools), but they
                              are so
                              > incestuous that nothing short of a ground-up clean-room
                              reimplementation
                              > will ever separate the 3 layers.
                              >
                              > --
                              > regards,
                              > Frugal
                              > -OS Chimp

                              I share your views completely, except that I would add a separation
                              between data and code (e.g. what a feat "is" versus what a
                              feat "does")

                              In any case, your export of the existing LST data is a step in the
                              right direction. It facilitates the parsing of the data to transform
                              it into an application-specific format, such as your XML engine
                              approach.

                              The target should be to transform the LST data to a high-level
                              format. I believe you are saying as much above, since the XML engine
                              approach is very specific and that format would be the end product of
                              any transformation, and would be difficult to transform into anything
                              else that is generic.

                              So what has Doug and the BoD to say about all this? What's the plan
                              for PCGen?

                              Having toyed with the current code myself, I agree that a total
                              revamp is necessary. PCGen 6.0.0 would be an entirely new engine,
                              then?

                              I don't see any benefit in having intermediate steps towards this.
                              Half-measures, such as using your export into the existing engine
                              (tweaked for it) only would lead to wasted effort. XML is a new
                              model, and needs a new approach.

                              If there is a vote to be made, rewrite the whole thing, line up the
                              data monkeys with a generic XML format, and in the meantime provide
                              an XML to LST converter for legacy purposes until the new engine is
                              ready.

                              Whatever you decide, it'll be a step in the right direction (away
                              from the statu quo) ;)

                              Andargor
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